Amtrak to issue RFI for Acela II in early 2013

[jis]

From Amtrak:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

December 13, 2012

ATK-12-133

Contact: Media Relations, Amtrak

202 906.3860

AMTRAK ADVANCES PLANS TO ACQUIRE NEW

HIGH-SPEED TRAIN SETS FOR NORTHEAST CORRIDOR

Next-generation equipment best option to meet growing ridership demand

WASHINGTON – In order to better meet strong and growing ridership demand on

the Northeast Corridor (NEC), Amtrak is advancing plans to acquire new

next-generation high-speed train sets and ending its plans to purchase 40

additional high-speed passenger cars to add to the existing Acela Express

fleet.

In early 2013, Amtrak will issue a Request for Information (RFI) to

formally start the process that will replace the existing 20 Acela Express

train sets and add additional train sets to expand seating capacity and

provide for more frequent high-speed service on the NEC.

“Moving directly to new high-speed train sets is the best option to create

more seating capacity, permit higher speeds, and maximize customer comfort

all while improving equipment reliability and reducing operating costs,”

said President and CEO Joe Boardman.

He explained that the previous plan to add 40 new passenger cars with newer

technology to the older Acela train sets was a stop-gap measure, posed

technical challenges and was determined not to be cost effective and

insufficient to handle new ridership growth projections.

......

 

[Paulus]

It's not a spoof. And I swear, if they try and do this before Tier III, everyone needs to be fired.

 

[MikeM]

Ok, stupid question -- what's "Tier III"

 

[jis]

It's not a spoof. And I swear, if they try and do this before Tier III, everyone needs to be fired.

Thanks for finding the definitive published version.

They won't do it before Tier III. They have been on record stating they will not order any more Tier II equipment, well at least the Chief Engineer of the NEC HSR Project has said so in an open session at the last TransAction in Atlantic City earlier this year.

Tier III is the new buff strength and other related safety standard for operation above 125mph and above 160mph. It is targeted to enable purchase of more or less off the shelf UIC compliant rolling stock with cosmetic changes for oepration in the US.

The current Tier III draft rules state that Tier III trains cannot operate mixed with Tier II trains in general above 125mph.

However, FRA has also said that special rules will be developed to allow such mixed operations on the NEC. So the important thing is that Acela IIs happen after those special rules become available. Without those rules, either the current Acelas will have to operate lmited to 125mph, or the new ones will have to remain restricted to 125mph.

It will likely involves stricter positive separation, more strict than is specified for run of the mill PTC, is the current speculation.

 

[Ryan]

Here's a decent primer:

http://www.apta.com/...equirements.pdf

Holy-HSR-Batman!

Tier III is the new buff strength and other related safety standard for operation above 1125mph and above 160mph.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

a RFI means nothing, once they issue a RFP and go for actual purchase we will be 5 years down road.

Actuallly producing the sets will put us around 2019/20.

 

[Ryan]

An RFI doesn't mean nothing, it's the first step in the process.

 

[transit54]

Tier III is the new buff strength and other related safety standard for operation above 125mph and above 160mph. It is targeted to enable purchase of more or less off the shelf UIC compliant rolling stock with cosmetic changes for oepration in the US.

So essentially is tier III rolling back some of the requirements to have heavily reinforced trainsets that tier II required? Amtrak will be able to procure lighter-weight trainsets?

 

[jis]

Tier III is the new buff strength and other related safety standard for operation above 125mph and above 160mph. It is targeted to enable purchase of more or less off the shelf UIC compliant rolling stock with cosmetic changes for oepration in the US.

So essentially is tier III rolling back some of the requirements to have heavily reinforced trainsets that tier II required? Amtrak will be able to procure lighter-weight trainsets?

That is the general idea. even the denizens at FRA now acknowledge that Tier II was a bit over the top, and although they don;t say it.... borne out of lack of experience with high speed operations and inability to admit to that fact.

 

[afigg]

That is the general idea. even the denizens at FRA now acknowledge that Tier II was a bit over the top, and although they don;t say it.... borne out of lack of experience with high speed operations and inability to admit to that fact.

Interesting times. If Amtrak can buy something close to an off the shelf lighter weight HSR trainsets, that should save a ton of money, reduce the testing and development time. Of course, the trainsets would have to built in the US, which then limits the market to companies that have viable HSR trainsets to offer and an established manufacturing plant in the US. I can't see Amtrak going for a proposal that is based on starting a new manufacturing plant from scratch. Too much risk. So who would be the candidate companies for an Acela II? How much of an issue would the dual 25 and 60 Hz power source requirement be for existing product lines?

With regards to using lighter EMU HSR trainsets, better acceleration (and handling) characteristics could cut trip time a bit given the many speed changes on the NEC.

With a pro-HSR administration, I think the odds are that Amtrak and Boardman are aiming at placing an order and getting the funding all in place (low interest RRIF loans providing much of the funds) before the end of Obama's second term. The administration and LaHood may be leaning on the FRA to speed up the process to establish the Tier III regulations and guidelines.

There is also Xpress West off in the wings who could be looking in the next several years at placing orders for 300 km/h trainsets. I would not be surprised if, after the "fiscal cliff" and debt limit food fights are over, the administration and the FRA announces a $5+ billion RRIF loan to Xpress West for the Victorville to Las Vegas line. The administration can use the $35 billion RRIF program as leverage to advance HSR if the Republican controlled House is not going to cooperate.

 

[jis]

Siemens has informally stated that they are ready to offer the Valero should there be interest, and would even assemble in US plant. I am sure there would be others too. 60Hz should not be a big issue, as PRR can confirm. BTW Valeros have even been delivered in Russian Broad Gauge.

(null)

 

[Karl1459]

a RFI means nothing, once they issue a RFP and go for actual purchase we will be 5 years down road.

Actuallly producing the sets will put us around 2019/20.

An RFI doesn't mean nothing, it's the first step in the process.

an RFI means nothing or an RFI doesn't mean nothing ????

Ah the ways English can be misused by us Americans.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Newer, faster, cheaper, and more standarized HSR. What's not to like? I also like the idea of moving forward now instead of much later. Maybe losing those forty odd Acela cars was a blessing in disguise. Or maybe it was simply a matter of helping to build a concensus that it's time for all new sets. If an RFI doesn't meaning anything, then I guess neither does an RFP. It's not like either one is any sort of guarantee that the project is moving forward. As we've already seen, even a signed contract apparently doesn't mean squat if you're a "pro-business" governor who is opposed to passenger rail.

 

[cirdan]

Interesting times. If Amtrak can buy something close to an off the shelf lighter weight HSR trainsets, that should save a ton of money, reduce the testing and development time. Of course, the trainsets would have to built in the US, which then limits the market to companies that have viable HSR trainsets to offer and an established manufacturing plant in the US. I can't see Amtrak going for a proposal that is based on starting a new manufacturing plant from scratch. Too much risk. So who would be the candidate companies for an Acela II? How much of an issue would the dual 25 and 60 Hz power source requirement be for existing product lines?

Dual voltage is no problem to modern off-the-shelf solutions. Modern power electronics are very flexible in that regard. Some European HSR can handle four different electrical systems.

As for eligible companies, remember that any company with the know-how, but not currently having sufficient manufacturing capacity in the US can always partner up with a US company and form a partnership or allow them to produce under license. As ASEA did with the AEM7s for example.

 

[VT Hokie]

Siemens has informally stated that they are ready to offer the Valero should there be interest, and would even assemble in US plant. I am sure there would be others too. 60Hz should not be a big issue, as PRR can confirm. BTW Valeros have even been delivered in Russian Broad Gauge.

(null)

That would be awesome! I assume the design could be adapted to include active tilt. Having traveled aboard numerous high speed trains throughout Europe, the ICE 3 was definitely my favorite!

 

[Steve4031]

I like those valeros. They look like the ICE trains in Germany.

 

[jis]

I like those valeros. They look like the ICE trains in Germany.

That is not just by chance either. Valeros have evolved from the ICE.

 

[Guest]

Here are some facts to ponder:

The New Haven Railroad had a freight train 1st Advanced BO-1, the “Jet”, which guaranteed delivery from Boston to Chicago in 24 hours. Fifty years later Amtrak’s Lake Shore Limited takes almost 22 hours from Boston to Chicago.

The Merchants Limited the New Haven's crack express, with diesel power ,in 1963 would cover the distance from New York to Boston in 3 hours and 55 minutes. The Acela Express, in the same time slot and far from it’s proposed goal of 3 hours, covers the distance in 3 hours and 40 minutes and does not stop at New Haven as did the Merchants Limited.

Forty nine years have passed and countless millions (perhaps billions) spent in track improvements and wire installation and the resulting time cut from the schedule is 15 minutes! Is this considered progress? High speed trains have come and gone. The New Haven’s two forays into HST’s proved to be futile on the existing roadbed just as Amtrak‘s is today. Europe and Japan were bombed in to rubble in WW II and the Marshall Plan rebuilt their infrastructures with an eye on the future. The railroads were built as straight as the geography allowed. The NEC infrastructure dates from the 1800’s taking a circuitous route between industries.

The only way to achieve a 'true' high speed railroad is with a dedicated infrastructure and given real estate values in the crowded northeast it would prove to be cost prohibitive.

The Supersonic Transport (SST) the fastest commercial transportation in the world ceased operation after 30 years because it was not financially viable.

I don't think the traveling public is in that much of a hurry. Good, frequent, dependable service can be achieved for a lot less taxpayer money.

 

[jis]

Acela Express does not stop at New Haven?

 

[Guest]

Acela Express does not stop at New Haven?

That is correct. At the time of the comparison train #2168 left NY @ 5:OOPM and arrived Boston @8:40 PM. The new schedule for #2168 has added 3 minutes to the running time because it now stops @ New Haven. So now the Acela express has bested the time of the 1963 era Merchants Limited by only 12 minutes.

Progress???

 

[Paulus]

How many more trains are on the NEC however? More trains with the same infrastructure will lead to slower schedules (and of course there is the question of how often that train ran on time). As for rebuilding the railroads as straight as possible, I'm rather doubting that since the TGV was not built until the late 1970s, opening in 1981, and operates on legacy track next to freight for portions of its route while the ICE generally runs on legacy track. What we really need is the FRA to allow us to take greater advantage of tilting as well as better organization of the NEC and cooperation between the various agencies.

 

[jis]

Acela Express does not stop at New Haven?

That is correct. At the time of the comparison train #2168 left NY @ 5:OOPM and arrived Boston @8:40 PM. The new schedule for #2168 has added 3 minutes to the running time because it now stops @ New Haven. So now the Acela express has bested the time of the 1963 era Merchants Limited by only 12 minutes.

Progress???

And the overall point being made is what? Resurrect the New Haven to run the NEC North?

 

[Guest]

Acela Express does not stop at New Haven?

That is correct. At the time of the comparison train #2168 left NY @ 5:OOPM and arrived Boston @8:40 PM. The new schedule for #2168 has added 3 minutes to the running time because it now stops @ New Haven. So now the Acela express has bested the time of the 1963 era Merchants Limited by only 12 minutes.

Progress???

And the overall point being made is what? Resurrect the New Haven to run the NEC North?

I'll ignore the sarcasm for now. The overall point is the high speed rail cannot be possible on the NEC between Boston and New York without a dedicated infrastructure. The Acela will fail as did the TurboTrain,the Rohr, the LRC, the Daniel Webster, the John Quincy Adams, the Roger Williams and the Comet. How many times will it be tried before this fact is realized? Amtrak is fraught with unfulfilled predictions. The Acela Express has never fulfilled the prediction of three hour service between Boston and New York.

I made a comparison to the New Haven to show that virtually no progress has been made in the last 50 years.

Is the overall point clear to you now 'jis'?

 

[jis]

Not really. But let's let it be. The fact is that trains have not been sped up as much as was claimed. But to state from that that Acelas have been a complete failure is not completely tenable either. But as I said, since we apparently don;t even agree on what constitutes success or failure, I don't think a fruitful conversation is possible. Afterall I don;t even believe that the Turboliners failed in any way shape or form. It may be that some have unrealistic expectations and are frustrated when those are not met.

 

[afigg]

The Merchants Limited the New Haven's crack express, with diesel power ,in 1963 would cover the distance from New York to Boston in 3 hours and 55 minutes. The Acela Express, in the same time slot and far from it’s proposed goal of 3 hours, covers the distance in 3 hours and 40 minutes and does not stop at New Haven as did the Merchants Limited.

Many of the Acelas had a NYP-BOS trip time of 3:30 several years ago. The trip times are currently slower mostly AFAIK because of the 2 tracking segment for bridge and catenary replacement on the New Haven Line in CT, although there may be additional padding added due to work on the Shore Line East. Yes, 3:30 for NYP-BOS is still well short of the long ago set goal of 3 hours, but it is an improvement.

In another year or two, the bridge replacement/refurbishment causing the two tracking. and, IIRC, the constant tension catenary installation for the New Haven line is supposed to completed by 2017. Add in the 4th track for the West Haven station, new Niantic River movable bridge. and completion of other Shore Line East projects. the Acela should get to a faster than 3:30 NYP-BOS schedule. It may take another 4-5 years though. Progress on the NYP-BOS segment has come along slowly, but it has taken place.