Amtrak First Timer on the Adirondack to Montreal

[VentureForth]

I am suprised that they tried the CCC experiment to replace diners on overnight trains rather than try to UPGRADE current underwhelming services that are on long distance day trains with a CCC like the Adirondack and the Palmetto.

Were the only CCCs Superliners?

All of the above would change if the Adirondack were redirected to Lucien-L'Allier instead of the current terminous at Central Station. If this reroute goes through, the Adirondack would then operate much like the Cascades service to Vancouver, with no intermediate stops within Canada and customs would happen after you step off the train in Montreal. At that point Amtrak would be able to sell as many seats as it could to passengers going to/from Montreal.

Why would Lucien-L'Allier be a better station for Customs? I would imagine that Central Station would have better resources for that. A better centralized location for AMT & Metro (though I think both stop at Lucien-L'Allier)...

 

[jis]

All of the above would change if the Adirondack were redirected to Lucien-L'Allier instead of the current terminous at Central Station. If this reroute goes through, the Adirondack would then operate much like the Cascades service to Vancouver, with no intermediate stops within Canada and customs would happen after you step off the train in Montreal. At that point Amtrak would be able to sell as many seats as it could to passengers going to/from Montreal.

Why would Lucien-L'Allier be a better station for Customs? I would imagine that Central Station would have better resources for that. A better centralized location for AMT & Metro (though I think both stop at Lucien-L'Allier)...

That bit about Lucien L'Allier is old 2011 news. Indeed that was being considered back then. Since then that proposal has been dropped and property has been set aside within Montreal Central to construct the C&I facility. The whole project is now awaiting modification of the Treaty governing operation of CBP within Canada specifically at Montreal Central Station. There is some expectation such modification will be achieved sometime this year or early next, which will then trigger the construction of the facility and move of the C&I to Montreal Central.

 

[Ashland Train Enthusiast]

I am suprised that they tried the CCC experiment to replace diners on overnight trains rather than try to UPGRADE current underwhelming services that are on long distance day trains with a CCC like the Adirondack and the Palmetto.
Were the only CCCs Superliners?

Yes, the CCCs were all Superliners, so couldn't be used on any of the single level equipment in the east.

I agree that the eastern medium-distance trains like the Adirondack, Palmetto, Pennsylvanian, and Carolinian need a more intermediate option for dining service; I have heard that once the new Viewliner Diners come onboard that they may look at taking the Diner-Lite concept from the Cardinal, and applying that to these trains, to maybe serve a more intermediate hot menu that's not the nuked pizza or hamburgers (it is still pre-packaged food heated in a convection oven, but imho that open-air dry heating is a huge improvement over a microwaved meal).

~ DCTE

 

[zephyr17]

I am suprised that they tried the CCC experiment to replace diners on overnight trains rather than try to UPGRADE current underwhelming services that are on long distance day trains with a CCC like the Adirondack and the Palmetto.
Were the only CCCs Superliners?

Yes, and the modification was they took a full Superliner diner and completely revised the upstairs seating area, and added a lounge service counter up there, while they left the downstairs galley completely intact. So the CCCs still had all their food preparation capability unchanged. This is why the CCCs in service can and do offer a full menu.

It would be hard to do with their single level diners, as they'd have to leave the 1/3rd of the car that is the galley alone, and then carve lounge space out of the remaining 2/3rds. Especially since they don't have a lot of them. Maybe if they had looked at SP's design for the Sunset Limited's Pride of Texas Coffee Shop/Lounges and configured some of the new Viewliner order into something similar they'd have had something.

BTW, I had a sit down dinner in the Cardinal's dinette back in December and I was decidedly underwhelmed. It was some of worst food I've had on Amtrak and service was excruciatingly slow. It wasn't the staff's fault, they were overwhelmed trying to run the counter service and serve dinner at the same time.

 

[smiling at the rain]

Hi we are travelling from Montreal to New York mid to late August as a family of 4. This is likely a trip that we will only ever do once (we are from the west coast) just want to ensure we make the most of it. going south bound into the U.S. is it best to sit on the left or right side of the train & is one section of the train better than others? is there anyway to ensure that we get great seats......i know that we have to show up 1 hour as per the agent...but if we queue up earlier would that help?

 

[zephyr17]

Lake Champlain will be on the left southbound. The Hudson will be on right. Both offer good views, but the Adirondack's claim to fame is Lake Champlain.

As to what to do in Montreal, I don't know the routine there. However, as a general rule, the closer you are to the head of the line, the better the seat selection.

As noted above, you'll be in one of two Amtfleet II coaches. Not a big deal which one.

 

[AlanB]

As noted above, you'll be in one of two Amtfleet II coaches. Not a big deal which one.

I would not bet on that! US Customs requires all passengers to be together when the train crosses the border. So if there are more people than will fit in the 2 AMF II cars, then everyone goes to the AMF I cars. Which is really pitiful that the short haul passengers get the better long distance cars.

 

[pennyk]

When I traveled on the Adirondack in 2012, I was in an AMF I northbound and AMF II southbound. I used a Redcap (or whatever Via calls them) in Montreal and was able to board early and choose my seat, however, not all Redcaps boarded their passengers early. I think I got lucky. I sat on the left hand side from Montreal to NYP.

If I remember correctly, the AMF I cars had wi-fi (south of the border) whereas the more comfortable AMF II cars did not.

 

[afigg]

BTW, Canada and US are working on moving the border inspection for the Adirondack to the Montreal Central station, but it is not likely to come to pass until late 2014 at the earliest. When that happens the St. Lambert stop outside Montreal will be discontinued, and the Adirondack will run clsed door between montreal Central and Rouses Point.

I did a search and found that viewgraph presentations from the April, 2013 meeting of the Transportation Border Working Group have been posted on their website. The presentation of interest here is the Cross Border Rail Passenger Service Progress Report (~6 MB powerpoint file, rather slow download when I tried it). There are floorplans and photos of the proposed customs facility location at Central Station and a photo of the current rather basic facility at Lacolle, QC. There are also 2 other viewgraph presentations on passenger rail: NY State on Empire corridor plans, Cascades corridor.

Interesting bullet items in the slides:

Potential Future International Services

Northeast Corridor – Vermont – Montreal

Chicago – Michigan – Ontario - Quebec

Under Montreal:

Progress to date

• Amtrak Engineering developed a conceptual facility plan
• CBSA and USCBP concurred in the concept subject to further review as the project advances
• Quebec, New York and Vermont agreed to share the cost of a Canadian architect’s review
• Agence metropolitaine de transport (AMT), on behalf of Amtrak, retained the architect
• Architect has presented their preliminary report, in summary, stating there are no show-stoppers but more expensive than originally estimated
• Business case for Montreal preclearance being developed by the partners for presentation to Deputy Secretary Bersin of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security
• MTQ ongoing tracks study from Montreal to US Border (state of CN and CP tracks and cost to increase speed up to 100 mph) – report expected in July 2013

On the slide titled Requirements for Preclearance

• A preclearance treaty ratified by both Canada and the United States providing for USCBP officers to work in designated rail stations in Canada
• Funding required to lease necessary space from Canadian National and other owners of the Central Station properties
• Capital funding to construct the facility on the track level plus vertical access to the concourse level
• Rescheduling of trains for connections due to faster trip times
• “Sterile” closed-door non-stop train operations in Canada
• Staff and other financial resources for USCBP and CBSA to operate the facility
• And, for the “Vermonter”, an additional pair of slots over Canadian National from the border to Central Station

One potential holdup in the treaty process is the US Senate, given how many appointments and even pro forma treaty approvals have been stalled in the Senate. 2015 for a Customs facility in MTR, perhaps?

 

[zephyr17]

If there isn't a treaty how are doing pre-clearance in Vancouver, which they've had ever since the Cascades started. Must have to do with the stop in Blaine, WA where the collect the customs cards and sometimes check bags.

 

[AlanB]

If there isn't a treaty how are doing pre-clearance in Vancouver, which they've had ever since the Cascades started. Must have to do with the stop in Blaine, WA where the collect the customs cards and sometimes check bags.

There is a treaty for the airports and the Cascades. It needs to be ammended, or a new one needs to be enacted, that now includes the Montreal train station.

 

[R30A]

Historically they were limitations on where they would allow you to sit crossing the border on the Adirondack. Lately this has not been the case. The last 5 times I took the train across the border, nearly the whole train has been open to the public.(and they had to be, as many more than two cars worth of people have been aboard the train. The one time that there was a closed car was due to a large group boarding in Plattsburgh)

 

[gordonlee]

I'm on train #69 The Adirondack right now! I'm in car #25066 (so I guess that's a good one!). We're running about an hour late, stuck outside of Ticonderoga while we wait for track work to be done. I must say that so far the internet has been good (I got on at Albany). We're running about 25% of the car I am in as being occupied (if that, maybe even less). Will "report back" later on how the customs process goes.

 

[gordonlee]

Follow up to my post yesterday. We did get into to Montreal about 45 minutes late. Here's my summary:

Scenery of Lake Champlain is spectacular

Coach car was nice, clean

Customs was a breeze - they came on the train and asked "Where are you going, how long will you be in Canada?" and that's it. Took all of 30 seconds.

BUT... the train still was stopped at customs for over an hour.

I would have to say that I'm glad that I did this - once. I'm seriously considering cancelling my return on the Adirondack Montreal-Albany and taking Greyhound instead. The reasons being:

1) Our train coming up had literally 2 dozen passengers by the time we got to the border and it STILL took over an hour. If the train back has more passengers, I could easily see being stuck at the border for 2 or 3 hours.

2) This train must average the slowest speeds of any Amtrak train (and I've been on more than a few). Most of the trip must have been at 40mph or less. It's excruciatingly slow and by the time we were lumbering along between the Canadian Customs stop and Montreal I and several other passengers were getting a bit of cabin fever and wanting off!

So, that's my "review" of the Adirondack.

 

[jis]

I learned at the ESPA meeting that the Treaty process has suffered a setback both in the US and in Canada, for reasons that have nothing to do with the usual suspects, but something else that has come out of the left field in the rocky relationship between the close neighbors.

Apparently the process will now have to restart from step 1, and will take at least 12 to 18 months if all goes well. In spite of the rancor on Capitol hill this is not expected to be a victim to that since the Treaty covers broad territory that is of commercial interest to a lot of folks, and includes freight related issues too. So it is not something that is likely to get held up by anti-Amtrak partisans, since the Amtrak part is a small part of the whole thing and costs almost nothing to the US.

On the good side, Quebec appears to be getting quite serious about funding work on upgrading the CN line from Rouses Point to Montreal to a respectable 70mph.

 

[afigg]

I learned at the ESPA meeting that the Treaty process has suffered a setback both in the US and in Canada, for reasons that have nothing to do with the usual suspects, but something else that has come out of the left field in the rocky relationship between the close neighbors.
Apparently the process will now have to restart from step 1, and will take at least 12 to 18 months if all goes well. In spite of the rancor on Capitol hill this is not expected to be a victim to that since the Treaty covers broad territory that is of commercial interest to a lot of folks, and includes freight related issues too. So it is not something that is likely to get held up by anti-Amtrak partisans, since the Amtrak part is a small part of the whole thing and costs almost nothing to the US.

On the good side, Quebec appears to be getting quite serious about funding work on upgrading the CN line from Rouses Point to Montreal to a respectable 70mph.

So if it takes another 12 to 18 months to complete all the agreements and revise the treaty, then add time for ratification, award contracts and build the custom facility in Montreal, reassign and relocate US customs inspectors to MTR, it could be 2016 or later before the Customs facility opens. the wheels of bureaucracy can grind slowly on international matters..

If Quebec is serious about funding upgrades on the CN line, perhaps much of the track work can be done by the time the customs facility opens in MTR. By 2016, most of the track & signal upgrades from Poughkeepsie to Schenectady should be wrapping up. The Adirondack could see a series of significant trip time reductions in a fairly short time span if the customs facility and track improvements coincide.

 

[gordonlee]

I learned at the ESPA meeting that the Treaty process has suffered a setback both in the US and in Canada, for reasons that have nothing to do with the usual suspects, but something else that has come out of the left field in the rocky relationship between the close neighbors.
Apparently the process will now have to restart from step 1, and will take at least 12 to 18 months if all goes well. In spite of the rancor on Capitol hill this is not expected to be a victim to that since the Treaty covers broad territory that is of commercial interest to a lot of folks, and includes freight related issues too. So it is not something that is likely to get held up by anti-Amtrak partisans, since the Amtrak part is a small part of the whole thing and costs almost nothing to the US.

On the good side, Quebec appears to be getting quite serious about funding work on upgrading the CN line from Rouses Point to Montreal to a respectable 70mph.

So if it takes another 12 to 18 months to complete all the agreements and revise the treaty, then add time for ratification, award contracts and build the custom facility in Montreal, reassign and relocate US customs inspectors to MTR, it could be 2016 or later before the Customs facility opens. the wheels of bureaucracy can grind slowly on international matters..

If Quebec is serious about funding upgrades on the CN line, perhaps much of the track work can be done by the time the customs facility opens in MTR. By 2016, most of the track & signal upgrades from Poughkeepsie to Schenectady should be wrapping up. The Adirondack could see a series of significant trip time reductions in a fairly short time span if the customs facility and track improvements coincide.

The two areas that were tortuous in terms of slow speeds were from Fort Ticonderoga north to Plattsburgh, and then from Canadian Customs into Montreal. I could see the Canadian portion being able to accomodate faster speeds as a lot of the time we were headed straight and running through corn fields. But the Fort Ticonderoga to Plattsburgh portion, I don't know. It's a very winding route up there. Not sure you can run much faster at all on that stretch.

 

[OBS]

Follow up to my post yesterday. We did get into to Montreal about 45 minutes late. Here's my summary:
Scenery of Lake Champlain is spectacular

Coach car was nice, clean

Customs was a breeze - they came on the train and asked "Where are you going, how long will you be in Canada?" and that's it. Took all of 30 seconds.

BUT... the train still was stopped at customs for over an hour.

I would have to say that I'm glad that I did this - once. I'm seriously considering cancelling my return on the Adirondack Montreal-Albany and taking Greyhound instead. The reasons being:

1) Our train coming up had literally 2 dozen passengers by the time we got to the border and it STILL took over an hour. If the train back has more passengers, I could easily see being stuck at the border for 2 or 3 hours.

2) This train must average the slowest speeds of any Amtrak train (and I've been on more than a few). Most of the trip must have been at 40mph or less. It's excruciatingly slow and by the time we were lumbering along between the Canadian Customs stop and Montreal I and several other passengers were getting a bit of cabin fever and wanting off!

So, that's my "review" of the Adirondack.

FWIW, don't assume the bus will be any quicker at the border. I traveled back from MTR to Burlington a few weeks ago by bus. It had about 20 people on the bus and we were at the border 1.5 hours. Talking to the driver while we waited, and asked how often bus is on time into Burlington (based on Greyhound time alloted for border), He said "never".

 

[jis]

It just takes one passenger with an issue for the train to get held up forever, and most passengers would not even know what was going on anyway. Heck even the passenger at issue may not know for a while too, while the CBSA or CBP goes off investigating through their records.

 

[gordonlee]

Well OK, I'll take The Adirondack back next week!

 

[gordonlee]

Getting ready to head over to Montreal station to hop on the Adirondack back to Albany. Yesterday the trip to Albany took 11 hours (over 3 hours delayed). I hope we don't have such bad luck today.

 

[gordonlee]

And my report:

Left Montreal about 5 minutes late. Train was "sold out" according to the conductor (though I did spot a few open seats). U.S. Customs and Immigration stop was only for about an hour - great news!

But... we had to hold somewhere before Fort Ticonderoga for the northbound Adirondack which set us back about an hour, and then had to wait for a freight around Glens Falls for another 20 minutes or so. Ended up arriving in Albany about 1 hour 30 minutes behind schedule.

And I have to repeat, this has got to be the slowest train in the Amtrak system. I don't think we got above 50 mph once during the entire trip!

 

[jis]

You probably did get considerably above 50mph south of Schenectady.

 

[mignyc]

Upon someone on this board's recommendation, I'm considering taking this train this fall for a leaf tour.

I'm not interested in the long wait at the border, but rather seeing the lake scenery - so I wonder if it would be a good idea to get off the train at the stop before the border, spend the night, then return the following day?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Upon someone on this board's recommendation, I'm considering taking this train this fall for a leaf tour.
I'm not interested in the long wait at the border, but rather seeing the lake scenery - so I wonder if it would be a good idea to get off the train at the stop before the border, spend the night, then return the following day?

:hi: Excellent idea, lots of our Members have done this when the Ocean View Dome Car is on the Adirondack during Leaf Peeper Season! Im not familiar with the Cities on this Route (Port Kent,NY is where the Seasional Ferry to Vt. operates and Plattsburgh,NY is also a possibly!) but know that some of our Members can give you good Tips on where to Stay, Eat etc. Since Im not familiar with the Ferry Schedule I can't say for sure but during the Summer people ride to Port Kent, take the Ferry across the Lake, spend some time in Vt. and ride the Vermonter back to New York City or wherever! :help: