NE933
Conductor
So we all can sort of breathe easier, as this was all planned and is so far going as envisioned.... there is no crisis at the moment, other than the usual budget stuff..
Amtrak Disintegration Begins
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Tumbleweed
OBS Chief
2 thoughts come to mind here.....
Knowledge is powerful....(gather all the information you can, whether it be fact or fiction.)
Know your enemy.,....(and what he is thinking, whether it be fact or fiction.)
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
IMHO it would be more accurate to say that a lot of this was planned and some is going as envisioned. There have been some bumps in the roadbed, but the train has not left the track, despite Chicken Little's cries to the contrary.
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Which is exactly why the URPA topic exists!2 thoughts come to mind here.....
Knowledge is powerful....(gather all the information you can, whether it be fact or fiction.)
Know your enemy.,....(and what he is thinking, whether it be fact or fiction.)
Ignoring what goes on simply because you don't like it or it smacks of crazy often can come back to bite one in the rear.
I don't know that I agree with the above. I don't see URPA as an enemy. I see them as a bunch of crackpots that are off their rocker. Nobody in the industry (or outside the industry) takes them seriously. The only attention they get is on internet discussion groups and forums such as this.Which is exactly why the URPA topic exists!2 thoughts come to mind here.....
Knowledge is powerful....(gather all the information you can, whether it be fact or fiction.)
Know your enemy.,....(and what he is thinking, whether it be fact or fiction.)
Ignoring what goes on simply because you don't like it or it smacks of crazy often can come back to bite one in the rear.
I see it as more of an "ignore it, and eventually it will go away" deal. If they had even the slightest influence in what is going on in the world of railroading, then I might consider it a valid point to entertain/humor them. But they don't. It's really more annoying than anything else.
Montanan
OBS Chief
There's a difference between knowing one's enemy, and aiding and abetting a troll ... and the URPA topic is doing exactly the latter.Which is exactly why the URPA topic exists!2 thoughts come to mind here.....
Knowledge is powerful....(gather all the information you can, whether it be fact or fiction.)
Know your enemy.,....(and what he is thinking, whether it be fact or fiction.)
Ignoring what goes on simply because you don't like it or it smacks of crazy often can come back to bite one in the rear.
Few of the people who stumble across that thread are going to have the background of the forum regulars, who understand what's going on in that thread ... and the thread's prominent placement and "pinned" status gives it at least an implied air of authority. You'd have to put an official disclaimer in front of every post there to change that; otherwise, this board is an accomplice to an organized campaign of uninformed anti-Amtrak vitriol that has real potential to be harmful, and benefits only URPA's ego.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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Actually, I tend to disagree with this assessment of URPA. I do not agree with many things URPA says. But that does not make them a troll. They do present their case in a logical fashion though based on premises that are not as much of "given truths" as they seem to think. At times they even manage to identify what is clearly wrong with Amtrak's approach and its inability to understand incremental accounting for incremental service enhancements, which has been one of the banes of Amtrak's existence, - the inability to understand and manage such. To characterize URPA's rants as "uninformed Amtrak vitriol" in and of itself smacks of being uninformed. Afterall, some of the protagonists of URPA worked for Amtrak in the past, and at times have even worked with Amtrak. Hostile they may be but uninformed they are not, even by a long shot. Besides who are we to decide what the uninformed masses should be allowed to see or not anyway?There's a difference between knowing one's enemy, and aiding and abetting a troll ... and the URPA topic is doing exactly the latter.Which is exactly why the URPA topic exists!2 thoughts come to mind here.....
Knowledge is powerful....(gather all the information you can, whether it be fact or fiction.)
Know your enemy.,....(and what he is thinking, whether it be fact or fiction.)
Ignoring what goes on simply because you don't like it or it smacks of crazy often can come back to bite one in the rear.
Few of the people who stumble across that thread are going to have the background of the forum regulars, who understand what's going on in that thread ... and the thread's prominent placement and "pinned" status gives it at least an implied air of authority. You'd have to put an official disclaimer in front of every post there to change that; otherwise, this board is an accomplice to an organized campaign of uninformed anti-Amtrak vitriol that has real potential to be harmful, and benefits only URPA's ego.
Having been brought up in societies where censorship for political reasons had been practiced from time to time, I abhor the thought of shutting a point of view out simply because a majority finds it inconvenient to their thought process. Characterizing something as "spam" is merely a feel good technique for those that want to shut discussions down. So I am glad that the board moderators here don't take that approach, and indeed proactively post URPA's missives. Those of us that find those articles to be raising blood pressures and reducing their life expectancy, should simply avoid that particular forum. I for one, would be stridently opposed to stopping the good work that MrFSS does in posting the URPA messages. I know this is probably an unpopular stand, but since when has that stopped me?
VentureForth
Engineer
Well put, JIS. I wanted to write something to that end but the elequence escaped me.
URPA tends to lean right in its political stance, as I do. That doesn't mean I'm uninformed, ill advised, stupid, or just a plain moron (though I'm sure that some would actually believe that I am).
Agree to disagree. It's that easy. For a couple of guys that put out a newsletter sporadically at once a week, they are rarely commented on here.
The point in this last essay has some validity. And, it's a point that has been brought up in that space in recent weeks.
Who can argue that a mass Voluntary Separation Incentive Package would NOT lead to the most qualified managers leaving for better pastures, leaving many who can't find a job outside their own little zone of bureaucratic life?
What URPA does do is think outside of the box. Particularly when it comes to finding ways that Amtrak could increase their revenues and decrease their costs. The 24 hour diner concept, though flawed, could have been reviewed better by Amtrak. The assumptions by URPA could have been better defined.
One thing I will say, though, is that when I have disagreed with Bruce, and emailed him, 90% of the time he emails me back. He still thinks he's right, but at least he answers.
URPA tends to lean right in its political stance, as I do. That doesn't mean I'm uninformed, ill advised, stupid, or just a plain moron (though I'm sure that some would actually believe that I am).
Agree to disagree. It's that easy. For a couple of guys that put out a newsletter sporadically at once a week, they are rarely commented on here.
The point in this last essay has some validity. And, it's a point that has been brought up in that space in recent weeks.
Who can argue that a mass Voluntary Separation Incentive Package would NOT lead to the most qualified managers leaving for better pastures, leaving many who can't find a job outside their own little zone of bureaucratic life?
What URPA does do is think outside of the box. Particularly when it comes to finding ways that Amtrak could increase their revenues and decrease their costs. The 24 hour diner concept, though flawed, could have been reviewed better by Amtrak. The assumptions by URPA could have been better defined.
One thing I will say, though, is that when I have disagreed with Bruce, and emailed him, 90% of the time he emails me back. He still thinks he's right, but at least he answers.
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Agreed (basically what I was trying to say, but you said it a bit better). Not trying to "derail" this thread, so to speak, but I've really often wondered why URPA gets a pinned topic at the top of this board, when lots of actually useful and repetitive topics that could answer people's questions get lost and buried and the same questions come up over and over again (the car/line numbers thread, for example).
Having the "URPA Newsletter" pinned, and usually the very first thing people see when they come on this forum gives them a level of credibility and implied endorsement on this forum.
And I'm going to have to disagree with Jis's assessment. URPA may not be a troll, but they are damn close to it.Actually, I tend to disagree with this assessment of URPA. I do not agree with many things URPA says. But that does not make them a troll. They do present their case in a logical fashion though based on premises that are not as much of "given truths" as they seem to think. At times they even manage to identify what is clearly wrong with Amtrak's approach and its inability to understand incremental accounting for incremental service enhancements, which has been one of the banes of Amtrak's existence, - the inability to understand and manage such. To characterize URPA's rants as "uninformed Amtrak vitriol" in and of itself smacks of being uninformed. Afterall, some of the protagonists of URPA worked for Amtrak in the past, and at times have even worked with Amtrak. Hostile they may be but uninformed they are not, even by a long shot. Besides who are we to decide what the uninformed masses should be allowed to see or not anyway?
Having been brought up in societies where censorship for political reasons had been practiced from time to time, I abhor the thought of shutting a point of view out simply because a majority finds it inconvenient to their thought process. Characterizing something as "spam" is merely a feel good technique for those that want to shut discussions down. So I am glad that the board moderators here don't take that approach, and indeed proactively post URPA's missives. Those of us that find those articles to be raising blood pressures and reducing their life expectancy, should simply avoid that particular forum. I for one, would be stridently opposed to stopping the good work that MrFSS does in posting the URPA messages. I know this is probably an unpopular stand, but since when has that stopped me?
They do not present their cases in a logical fashion, unless you want to include made-up information, unsourced rumors, and childish name-calling a part of "logic."
Yes, they do manage to occasionally correctly identify things wrong with Amtrak (the old "broken clock" deal again), but anyone who has read this forum for more than five minutes notes that tons of people who post here manage to identify things wrong with Amtrak all the time.
Some of URPA may have worked for or with Amtrak at some point, but so have many on this forum. Nothing special there.
I can't say whether or not they are "uninformed" but since they absolutely refuse to ever reveal their sources, either for their quotes, or for their data, they do not pass any sort of credibility test.
Really, I don't care whether people want to post URPA junk on here or not. I just think that giving them a permanent pinned status puts their organization on a pedestal that is undeserved. Why not have a pinned thread right next to it for the NARP newsletter? Why not have a pinned thread for Crazy Carl's Weekly Rantings about how Amtrak serves Pepsi and not Coke?
Despite their claims, it has been obvious to me for quite a long time that URPA has not been about helping passenger rail as much as it has been about bringing down Amtrak (and cheerleading anything bad that happens to Amtrak, real or preceived). While there's nothing wrong with that, per se, it seems odd that a forum like this would make that the very first topic that most people see.
VentureForth
Engineer
Really? That's what you think they believe? I think completely opposite. I think that they know that there is HUGE amounts of waste going on at Amtrak (which most here would agree) and that they try to find ways to increase their means of generating revenue. It can be argued (and has forever) that Amtrak is never going to be profitable. I've shown where competitive markets have made rail transporation in other countries come pretty damn close to breaking even if not even churing a little extra cash.
I don't agree with a lot of their findings and quite frankly I'm pretty dumb, so if I can see the faults in their analysis, I'm sure most folks can.
Again, they create a discussion point. I can't recall recently where they have gone so far as to REFUSE to reveal their sources. When they quote an "Amtrak Insider" I would hope they Bruce wouldn't jeopardize their job by revealing their name. But you can choose to believe or choose to ignore or choose to debate. Right now, Trogdor, I find you the one to be name calling - not URPA.
He's a blogger. Deal with it.
I don't agree with a lot of their findings and quite frankly I'm pretty dumb, so if I can see the faults in their analysis, I'm sure most folks can.
Again, they create a discussion point. I can't recall recently where they have gone so far as to REFUSE to reveal their sources. When they quote an "Amtrak Insider" I would hope they Bruce wouldn't jeopardize their job by revealing their name. But you can choose to believe or choose to ignore or choose to debate. Right now, Trogdor, I find you the one to be name calling - not URPA.
He's a blogger. Deal with it.
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Montanan
OBS Chief
This is a fairly egregious misrepresentation of my post. Nowhere was I talking about censorship; my concern is with the way the dedicated, top-of-the-page thread artificially elevates URPA's drivel above the rest of the board's content.
Though it's been a while (so please correct me if I'm wrong), I seem to recall that the dedicated thread was originally created in attempt to isolate the URPA rants from the remainder of the board discussions ... an action that I suppose some would see as being censorship, too!
Ryan
Court Jester
I'm with the one armed flying dragon on this one.
If people want to read what the URPA has to say, they know where to get it. If something they write is worthy of discussion, someone will start a thread like this one, and we can discuss it without the need to every edition to go into a pinned topic.
I can't see where censorship comes into it, I don't think that anyone is discussing a "No posting about URPA allowed" rule, just avoiding the appearance of giving it undeserved (in my opinion) legitimacy by posting every "update" into a pinned topic.
If people want to read what the URPA has to say, they know where to get it. If something they write is worthy of discussion, someone will start a thread like this one, and we can discuss it without the need to every edition to go into a pinned topic.
I can't see where censorship comes into it, I don't think that anyone is discussing a "No posting about URPA allowed" rule, just avoiding the appearance of giving it undeserved (in my opinion) legitimacy by posting every "update" into a pinned topic.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
The problem is that people who are given a soapbox to stand on in public by an organization who is thought to know what they are doing are also assumed to know what they are doing. Ill-informed fools like Don Phillips of Trains or Al Papp of NJ-ARP are assumed to be knowledgeable, which makes them dangerous indeed.
NE933
Conductor
Just noticed on another rail forum that someone has cut and pasted the UPRA newsletter in its entirety on their, including name of author Bruce Richardson, by a familiar name on the internet. What makes this noteworthy is Ross Rowland, (former?) owner of steam engine #614 who used to run special excursions, agrees with the point of view stated within. What follows is a common sentiment about W. Graham Claytor Jr., namely short of conducting some sort of occult zombie ritual or dealmaking with the Messiah to bring him back from the dead, Amtrak's corporate organization is in a shambles unless someone of Claytor's caliber takes over the leadership.
While I agree that the UPRA newsletters give more garbage than good, there are many ugly truths revealed as well.
I don't understand the psychology behind this, namely a stalwart group worthy of calling itself a constituency, can have such hodge podge ideas about what Amtrak, the rail entity, needs to thrive, prosper, and graduate to a higher level. Lack of enough money is to blame for a lot, but not all; there are culprits within the ranks of management and staff members alike who sabotage the hard work of many by making themselves look like assshohles, groucho approaches with people, and corporate arrogance. I just wish these drains of human inginuity would disappear somewhere.
While I agree that the UPRA newsletters give more garbage than good, there are many ugly truths revealed as well.
I don't understand the psychology behind this, namely a stalwart group worthy of calling itself a constituency, can have such hodge podge ideas about what Amtrak, the rail entity, needs to thrive, prosper, and graduate to a higher level. Lack of enough money is to blame for a lot, but not all; there are culprits within the ranks of management and staff members alike who sabotage the hard work of many by making themselves look like assshohles, groucho approaches with people, and corporate arrogance. I just wish these drains of human inginuity would disappear somewhere.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
One way to balance out such perceptions is to pick, say NARP as an alternative mindlessly pro-Amtrak view provided as a pinned forum. Basically asking MrFSS to cease and desist what he feels like doing as a volunteer is what I object to. If anyone else likes to pin something else to counter URPA, I am sure the moderators will oblige. I always support more information rather than less, pinned or otherwise. However, because the detractors of URPA do not have enough dedication to post counter information from many available other orgs is not a good enough reason to force MrFSS to unpin the URPA thread. Sorry guys, if you want your view heard set up your own pinned forum with the help of the moderators.
Frankly at the end of the day I think this is a more or less a pointless storm in a teacup. So this will be my last post on this matter.
Frankly at the end of the day I think this is a more or less a pointless storm in a teacup. So this will be my last post on this matter.
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
I'll admit that for for quite a while the URPA thread was rather confusing to me. It didn't make much sense but it was pinned up at the top of everything else. Nobody ever talked about it or challenged it so I figured it was considered a reliable source by the folks who run the website and who update it. That didn't make the URPA folks look any less crazy, but it sure made AU seem somewhat less grounded.
To be completely frank I don't think any of the currently pinned threads deserve such status. On most forums pinning means "Be sure to check here FIRST!" before you inadvertently break a forum specific rule or create a redundant thread or what have you. But here on AU it just seems to mean "Move along, random pet project, nothing to see here..." I'll admit it, I simply don't get the point.
If you're going to pin a non-rule thread then why not pick something like the Favorite LD Train poll or the Parking Information thread? Threads like that may actually help new visitors instead of just confusing them.
I'm not saying the URPA thread should be banned or censored or anything, I simply think it should be allowed to live and die on its own merits without any arbitrary help from a pinned status. That seems like a pretty reasonable position to me.
I don't agree with the premise of adding an opposite but equally nutty counterweight to 'balance out' the URPA thread. Adding one part red crazy with one part blue crazy doesn't give you truth; it just gives you purple crazy.
To be completely frank I don't think any of the currently pinned threads deserve such status. On most forums pinning means "Be sure to check here FIRST!" before you inadvertently break a forum specific rule or create a redundant thread or what have you. But here on AU it just seems to mean "Move along, random pet project, nothing to see here..." I'll admit it, I simply don't get the point.
If you're going to pin a non-rule thread then why not pick something like the Favorite LD Train poll or the Parking Information thread? Threads like that may actually help new visitors instead of just confusing them.
I'm not saying the URPA thread should be banned or censored or anything, I simply think it should be allowed to live and die on its own merits without any arbitrary help from a pinned status. That seems like a pretty reasonable position to me.
I don't agree with the premise of adding an opposite but equally nutty counterweight to 'balance out' the URPA thread. Adding one part red crazy with one part blue crazy doesn't give you truth; it just gives you purple crazy.
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I agree. I know I've suggested this numerous times (to no avail), but I always thought that the consist/line number thread was one that should be pinned, because it is a topic that frequently comes up, and always eventually gets dug up from whatever page its on (probably page 275 by now).
I find it odd that people are interpreting suggestions to unpin the topic as "censorship." Nobody is suggesting not posting it, but, again, pinned topics are the first threads that a guest will see. I'm hoping folks realized that my suggestions about extra pinned threads on the NARP Hotline and Crazy Carl were facetious. Pinned threads actually annoy the hell out of me because they take up extra room on the page before you actually get to discussion.
I'd hate for this forum to look like some flyertalk boards where you have to go down half the page before you actually get to a new post, because everything else is pinned to the top. It would be ridiculous to have a pinned topic for every political viewpoint out there regarding Amtrak, because then it would crowd out the discussion that makes this forum interesting.
Tumbleweed
OBS Chief
I kinda agree with these posts.....
NE933
Conductor
If I may ask: what is a 'pinned' post?
Tumbleweed
OBS Chief
The posts near the top of the first page that say "pinned" on the left hand side......
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"Pinning" is a moderator tool that forces a topic to stay at the top of the first page of the forum without regard to the date of the last activity of the topic. It is a way to keep a topic in prominent view if there are few or no postings, or even if the topic is closed.
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