Amtrak declares New York Turboliner deal dead

[Guest_Fan_Trains]

From Trains.com:

ALBANY, N.Y. - A plan for high-speed passenger trains between Albany and New York City was built on so many false assumptions that a contract between the state and Amtrak is worthless, Amtrak officials contend in new court papers, according to a story by Cathy Woodruff in yesterday's Albany Times-Union

here is the link:

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Arti...05/623bsrdp.asp

 

[VT Hokie]

Here's a rare glimpse of a rebuilt Turboliner at the far left in this photo:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPictu....aspx?id=121141

So, at least they haven't been scrapped yet! It makes me angry to see these trains going to waste. I wonder if they'll ever run again. Here I am after a trip aboard a Turboliner in better days:

http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=r...ialbany43lr.jpg

 

[George Harris]

This whole thing was part of the Warrington smoke and mirrors act. It assumed a lot of money from others out of the goodness of their heart, including that CSX would do certain trackwork at their own expense (and pay New York taxes on it !). While I do think that a speed up and more trains New York to Buffalo, not just Albany, is a good idea, there has been a notable lack of enthusiasm to put up any cash on the part of the main beneficiaries.

Use of the turboliners was always a play to the politicians and grandstands. These theings were and are high maintenance fuel hogs. If Amtrak / New York State was sincere about a non-electrified high speed service, an American version of the very reliable British high speed diesel trainsets would be the thing to consider.

George

 

[VT Hokie]

Were the rebuilt versions any more efficient than they were in their original form? Whether rebuilding them was a good idea or not, $70 million was reportedly spent on them and the fact remains that three brand new trainsets are wasting away in storage. What will become of them?

 

[George Harris]

Have no idea. However, to spend more money on these things is somewhat like deciding whether to drop a couple of more thousand into a car that gets 10 mpg because your brother-in-law just spent about five grand on it instead of going for it when you can get a good deal a new or newer one that gets 25 mph. You have to remember always, that no matter what you do, money you have alread spent is sunk costs and you can not get it back.

 

[gswager]

Were the rebuilt versions any more efficient than they were in their original form? Whether rebuilding them was a good idea or not, $70 million was reportedly spent on them and the fact remains that three brand new trainsets are wasting away in storage. What will become of them?

It was undersized A/C, one of many fingers pointing.

 

[VT Hokie]

They're beautiful trains, regardless of their performance issues. I hope that at least one of the rebuilt units finds its way into a museum if they don't run again. It would be a travesty if they were simply scrapped.

 

[Rafi]

They're beatiful trains, regardless of their performance issues. I hope that at least one of the rebuilt units finds its way into a museum if they don't run again. It would be a travesty if they were simply scrapped.

Agreed; I hadn't seen a picture of one of them until today, but had read about them every time the controversy crept into rail news. I've gotta say... those are some sleek looking diesels. What an unfortunate situation, given their estimated performance (or lack thereof) and the overall botched deal. Still, those engines are SLEEK.

-Rafi

 

[AlanB]

You have to remember always, that no matter what you do, money you have alread spent is sunk costs and you can not get it back.

Thankfully of course that was money that Amtrak didn't spend. New York State spent that money and they did it to create jobs in NY at a plant that botched the job originally. So NY State had to step in and further bail out the rebuilding project, sending more of my tax dollars down the drain.

 

[AlanB]

Were the rebuilt versions any more efficient than they were in their original form? Whether rebuilding them was a good idea or not, $70 million was reportedly spent on them and the fact remains that three brand new trainsets are wasting away in storage. What will become of them?

I believe that the new engines were a bit better than the original ones, but still they cost far more to operate than a P32 AC-DM pulling a bunch of Amfleets.

Then there was the fact that when running on third rail in NYC, they could barely generate enough power to climb out of the East River tunnels into Sunnyside yard. So often the trains just turned in Penn Station, something that adds to the complexity of finding enough platforms for all of the arriving and departing trains.

Then consider that they required keeping special parts, tools, and training for the workers to be able to fix them. Having one set of standard parts is always desirable.

Finally as I mentioned in my post above, thankfully Amtrak didn't spend that money, New York State did.

As for what will become of them, nothing at least until the court battle is over. Then at that point I believe that NY State actually owns them, so they could request their return and Amtrak would be obligated to return them. What NY would do with them though is anyone's guess, since I rather doubt that Amtrak will ever agree to operate them again.

 

[VT Hokie]

What was the real reason for their sudden withdrawal from service? Amtrak used the air conditioning as its justification, but then wouldn't let Super Steel fix the a/c. So, it seems like they were just looking for an excuse to me. In addition to the air conditioning, I know there is the issue of fuel consumption and the weak performance in third rail mode. My question is, if these trains are really so bad, how did they survive from 1976 until the mid-90's in their original form? That's a lot of miles in revenue service, and I can't believe the Super Steel rebuilds aren't at least as good as the pre-rebuild trainsets.

 

[Guest_A_Nonny_Moose]

HSR-Fan found a new audience for his authistic persuit of the Turbo ??

 

[AlanB]

What was the real reason for their sudden withdrawal from service? Amtrak used the air conditioning as its justification, but then wouldn't let Super Steel fix the a/c. So, it seems like they were just looking for an excuse to me. In addition to the air conditioning, I know there is the issue of fuel consumption and the weak performance in third rail mode. My question is, if these trains are really so bad, how did they survive from 1976 until the mid-90's in their original form? That's a lot of miles in revenue service, and I can't believe the Super Steel rebuilds aren't at least as good as the pre-rebuild trainsets.

Again I think that there was a variety of factors involved, from customer complaints, to the things I already mentioned above, to the fact that Amtrak really doesn't need them at this point. Prior to Acela, Amtrak continued to use the old Turboliners because there weren't enough Amfleet I's to go around.

Acela, at least when it's running, freed up Metroliner cars giving Amtrak more than enough cars for Empire Service. In fact Amtrak just recently mothballed 41 Amfleets, partly becuase of budget constraints, but partly because they really don't need them.

So Amtrak looked at the big picture and said, they cost more to run, we don't really need them, and they don't really run all that much faster than a P32 hauling Amfleets. Especially since the Turboliners would have only done 125 MPH for short distances, not the entire run.

Finally, and we may never fully know how much influence this played in the decision, but by rejecting the new trains Amtrak is able to void a contract. A contract that it never should have signed under the Warrington administration, obligating it to pay CSX to improve the tracks enough to provide 125 MPH running.

 

[VT Hokie]

Again I think that there was a variety of factors involved, from customer complaints, to the things I already mentioned above, to the fact that Amtrak really doesn't need them at this point.  Prior to Acela, Amtrak continued to use the old Turboliners because there weren't enough Amfleet I's to go around.
Acela, at least when it's running, freed up Metroliner cars giving Amtrak more than enough cars for Empire Service.  In fact Amtrak just recently mothballed 41 Amfleets, partly becuase of budget constraints, but partly because they really don't need them.

What kind of customer complaints were there, if any? I rode aboard the rebuilt Turbos twice, and I certainly found them to be nicer than the worn out Amfleet equipment used on the Empire Corridor.

As for Amtrak having "surplus" Amfleets, I don't buy it. Amtrak routinely runs sold out trains while letting additional coaches go to waste. And I wonder how many of those "surplus" Amfleets will continue to waste away in storage as Amtrak runs standing room only trains during the holidays.

It frustrates me to see the current sad state of affairs, and it just added insult to injury when after spending $70 million on Turboliners that passengers can't even use, New York eliminated food service on the Empire Corridor to save a mere $1 million per year.

 

[AlanB]

What kind of customer complaints were there, if any?  I rode aboard the rebuilt Turbos twice, and I certainly found them to be nicer than the worn out Amfleet equipment used on the Empire Corridor.

I seem to recall stories from some passengers complaining that the seats were smaller than those found on an Amfleet car. Not positive about that, but I believe that was the complaint. There may have also been a few compliants about the noise level in the cars too.

The stories were posted here I believe, so you may turn them up by using the search function.

As for Amtrak having "surplus" Amfleets, I don't buy it.  Amtrak routinely runs sold out trains while letting additional coaches go to waste.  And I wonder how many of those "surplus" Amfleets will continue to waste away in storage as Amtrak runs standing room only trains during the holidays.

Just because you have extra cars and a sold out train, doesn't mean that you can add spare cars to create more space. There is a limit to how many cars one engine can pull, so one can't just keep adding cars because seats are selling. Furthermore, many times that a train is sold out during non-holiday times, it's because another train had problems and was either delayed or cancelled. In that case there isn't always time to add cars or it may not be possible to add cars.

For example if a train originating in NY goes out of service for some reason, those passengers may well get booked on the next south bound train coming into Penn from Boston. Amtrak can't just stop that train from Boston in Sunnyside yard with passengers on it to add more cars.

It frustrates me to see the current sad state of affairs, and it just added insult to injury when after spending $70 million on Turboliners that passengers can't even use, New York eliminated food service on the Empire Corridor to save a mere $1 million per year.

I think that we're all frustrated to see the state of affairs at Amtrak. Some of the blame for that falls squarely on Amtrak's shoulders, some of the blame falls on the politicians in DC that pull Amtrak's strings.

However, none of that has to do with the $70 million wasted on the Turboliners. That was NY States idea to waste that money, because it brought votes for certain politicians in Albany. They could just as easily have brought new equipment or even offered to refurbish Amfleet I equipment for exclusive use on the Empire Corridor. But no, NY wanted a fancy program that the politicians could point to and take pictures with to say, "look what we did".

And with regard to the food service, that was Amtrak's decision to do that, not NY State. Of course NY State could have stepped up to the plate and offered to pay for the loss that occurs on food service. But NY didn't bother to do that. NY is one of the few states that gets major Amtrak service that benefits only NY State, yet contributes next to nothing for that exclusive service.

California, Michigan, Illinois, Missouri, and Vermont just to name a few contribute far more money to Amtrak than does NY. NY only helps to pay for the Adirondack. Yet dozens of Empire service trains, the Ethan Allen, and everything on the NEC serves NY, with no help whatsoever from the state. :angry:

 

[VT Hokie]

I seem to recall stories from some passengers complaining that the seats were smaller than those found on an Amfleet car. Not positive about that, but I believe that was the complaint. There may have also been a few compliants about the noise level in the cars too.
Just because you have extra cars and a sold out train, doesn't mean that you can add spare cars to create more space. There is a limit to how many cars one engine can pull, so one can't just keep adding cars because seats are selling.

Yeah, I suppose the seats might have been a little smaller. One time I took business class, so that wasn't an issue. But I did ride in coach on one Turboliner trip. As for noise levels, I remember noise and vibration in the "power car" when I took business class, but from what I can remember the intermediate cars were pretty quiet and smooth.

As for extra cars, I've seen a single AEM-7 pull a 14 car Clocker, so certainly they should have the ability to expand beyond the standard 7 or 8 car Regional consist when demand warrants.

 

[VT Hokie]

Well, I found this in a search, but unfortunately, the article is long gone.

Passenger complaints

 

[AmtrakFan]

Amtrak has this thing with Fixed Concest if anyone haesn't noticed that has to do with Lack of Cars and all another problem I heard with the Turbotrains were the type of Fuel it had to used which cost a lot more.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak has this thing with Fixed Concest if anyone haesn't noticed that has to do with Lack of Cars and all another problem I heard with the Turbotrains were the type of Fuel it had to used which cost a lot more.

Well fixed consists also did play a role in the demise of the Turboliner too. In fact, right before they were pulled totally, Amtrak had decided that one set would never run at all and it's cars would be added to the other 5 consists to make them longer.

 

[VT Hokie]

Yes, the 5 car RTL-III sets had a capacity of 264, and adding an additional coach would boost capacity to 340. A typical Empire corridor train has a cafe/business class car (even though the cafe is no longer used) and maybe 3 or 4 Amfleet coaches. So, that's probably ~300 seats.

 

[George Harris]

If New York is really serious about increasing the speed between New York City and Albany, they have to start on the non-glamours end, and upgrade the alignment (curve straightening) and track and do such things as build a high level Spuyten Duyvil bridge so the trains do not have to contend with drawbridge openings. Otherwise, it is all political posturing.

 

[VT Hokie]

I agree, although the route already is faster than most in this country, with several stretches of 90 mph track and at least one decent stretch of 110 mph running north of Hudson.

What they should do is take the 3 or 4 Turboliner sets (the fourth set was nearing completion at Super Steel, I believe) and use them on limited stop or non-stop express trains between NYP and Albany (and maybe up to Saratoga Springs, as has been talked about recently).

 

[Dutchrailnut]

With the P32acdm and P42 having a top speed of 110 mph that would be just another wasted project at double the fuel cost.

Not gone happen.

You will never/ever see the Turbo's run on an Amtrak train again.

 

[VT Hokie]

If Amtrak shares your view, New York should have Metro North run them. However, I would think Amtrak would want to run the Turboliners if New York stepped up to the plate and provided financial support. Amtrak doesn't normally wish to run Heritage coaches either, but it does on the Piedmont because North Carolina sponsors that train and calls the shots.

 

[Trogdor]

If Amtrak shares your view, New York should have Metro North run them. However, I would think Amtrak would want to run the Turboliners if New York stepped up to the plate and provided financial support. Amtrak doesn't normally wish to run Heritage coaches either, but it does on the Piedmont because North Carolina sponsors that train and calls the shots.

Amtrak will run equipment supplied by the state if the state pays for the service. However, right now New York basically gets the Empire Corridor service for free (which is why it is very unlikely that Metro North will take over operation of that corridor any time soon).