Southwest Chief Re-Route?

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
So The State of New Mexico is not able (because of their Constitution) to give monies for track upgrade either directly or indirectly: how does that leave Colorado? Does it not leave them "out in the Cold"? If I understand the Colorado Bill -- they were not going to fund a dime from La junta to Trinidad unless there was written guarantee the Chief would go to Pueblo within 5 years. With the dead New Mexico study bill and freaky Colorado bill it sounds as if the reroute is guaranteed for Amarillo short of abandonment. That the case, what about this-- a tourist line from Amarillo to Tucumcari to Springer then north to Pueblo and South from Springer to Santa Fe/ Albq.. The Amarillo to Tucumcari would utilize the Old Rock Island row and Tucumcari to Springer would utilize the old Dawson Railway row. North and South of Springer use the present BNSF row. Track would be Class 8 . Cost --Billion dollars. Check this out on Google--it will surprise you.
 
So The State of New Mexico is not able (because of their Constitution) to give monies for track upgrade either directly or indirectly: how does that leave Colorado? Does it not leave them "out in the Cold"? If I understand the Colorado Bill -- they were not going to fund a dime from La junta to Trinidad unless there was written guarantee the Chief would go to Pueblo within 5 years. With the dead New Mexico study bill and freaky Colorado bill it sounds as if the reroute is guaranteed for Amarillo short of abandonment. That the case, what about this-- a tourist line from Amarillo to Tucumcari to Springer then north to Pueblo and South from Springer to Santa Fe/ Albq.. The Amarillo to Tucumcari would utilize the Old Rock Island row and Tucumcari to Springer would utilize the old Dawson Railway row. North and South of Springer use the present BNSF row. Track would be Class 8 . Cost --Billion dollars. Check this out on Google--it will surprise you.
Huh? Duck, you might want to lay off the wacky tobaccy.
 
Just for yours information --- There are 4 different ski area west of Springer,NM and these also have summer time activities plus the ski basin at Santa Fe and at Glorita there is a youth camp with housing for several thousand each week in the Summer. Now it just so happens that a large number of people from Amarillo, Lubbock, and Clovis area own a 2nd house in one of these places which means travel. It is also a known fact that people who live on the coast enjoy visiting the Mountains and that the Mountain people enjoy visiting the Coast---and they do it every day. Railroading is like any other business----find a need and Serve it. More could be said, But you need to Quack too.
 
So The State of New Mexico is not able (because of their Constitution) to give monies for track upgrade either directly or indirectly: how does that leave Colorado? Does it not leave them "out in the Cold"? If I understand the Colorado Bill -- they were not going to fund a dime from La junta to Trinidad unless there was written guarantee the Chief would go to Pueblo within 5 years. With the dead New Mexico study bill and freaky Colorado bill it sounds as if the reroute is guaranteed for Amarillo short of abandonment. That the case, what about this-- a tourist line from Amarillo to Tucumcari to Springer then north to Pueblo and South from Springer to Santa Fe/ Albq.. The Amarillo to Tucumcari would utilize the Old Rock Island row and Tucumcari to Springer would utilize the old Dawson Railway row. North and South of Springer use the present BNSF row. Track would be Class 8 . Cost --Billion dollars. Check this out on Google--it will surprise you.
Huh? Duck, you might want to lay off the wacky tobaccy.
If the mods have the duck IP address, I can bet he is from one of those state that have legalized marijuana. Potheads are not welcome on any airlines so Amtrak is their only option to go "Rocky Mountain High".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well. thank you, folks! Must be a good idea after all. With name calling and poking fun as the only objections must be pretty darn good concept. To further enhance the concept, we can add Tennessee Pass route and wind up at Glenwood Springs. You think this not work--- lay it out WHY. You just show jealousy when name call and make fun. Somebody is going to use the Raton Pass route and just think you might could have a part in it
 
Well. thank you, folks! Must be a good idea after all. With name calling and poking fun as the only objections must be pretty darn good concept. To further enhance the concept, we can add Tennessee Pass route and wind up at Glenwood Springs. You think this not work--- lay it out WHY. You just show jealousy when name call and make fun. Somebody is going to use the Raton Pass route and just think you might could have a part in it
Hey Quacker - obviously you have an interest in trains and routes... but communications is the art whereby the sender gets the receiver(s) to hear and understand the intended message... maybe I'm the only one having trouble parsing your posts... just maybe a little more effort in trying to make your posts more understandable, and I strongly suspect you'll fit right in here and be absolutely welcome. :)

BTW welcome aboard.

greg
 
If you join our forum, you can send messages directly to other users. Trainaddict may be one you would enjoy getting to know. I think you share some similar ideologies.

I'm sorry to knock your ideas, but "thousands" is only an acceptable market if they actually all use the train. For train travel to justify its existence and cost, you need markets of millions of people.

We can all wish for fancy new routes - the Desert Wind, the Pioneer, the Floridian, Auto Train West, etc. But the fact of the matter is that many of these DID exist and they don't any more for a pretty good reason - cost.
 
If the mods have the duck IP address, I can bet he is from one of those state that have legalized marijuana. Potheads are not welcome on any airlines so Amtrak is their only option to go "Rocky Mountain High".
Plenty of people who smoke marijuana fly on major airlines.
 
Well. thank you, folks! Must be a good idea after all. With name calling and poking fun as the only objections must be pretty darn good concept. To further enhance the concept, we can add Tennessee Pass route and wind up at Glenwood Springs. You think this not work--- lay it out WHY. You just show jealousy when name call and make fun. Somebody is going to use the Raton Pass route and just think you might could have a part in it
duck:

There is an attempt in this forum to discuss reasonable routes, route changes, and other improvements. Your first post to which I made my somewhat flippant response was a mishmash of lines presented in a less than comprehensible manner, then ending with the "cost billions" comment. That last was the final nail in the coffin burying any semblence of rationality in the post.

Now, on to the Tennessee Pass route: That line is shown in UP publications as having 148 miles as being "OOS", that is out of service and another 11 controled by a short line. It is 175 miles longer between Denver and Dotsero than the direct line through the Moffat Tunnel. When it had a passenger train it was almost entirely a sightseeing train. It was very slow and ran through a thinly populated area. It had very low ridership. The slowness was inherent to the alignment, so that will be there if the line is ever - at great expense! - put back in service. Much as some here might like to see this line as a beautiful scenic ride there is no semblence of any reality that will allow that to happen.

Here you have the "why" that prevents this route from working.
 
So The State of New Mexico is not able (because of their Constitution) to give monies for track upgrade either directly or indirectly: how does that leave Colorado? Does it not leave them "out in the Cold"? If I understand the Colorado Bill -- they were not going to fund a dime from La junta to Trinidad unless there was written guarantee the Chief would go to Pueblo within 5 years. With the dead New Mexico study bill and freaky Colorado bill it sounds as if the reroute is guaranteed for Amarillo short of abandonment. That the case, what about this-- a tourist line from Amarillo to Tucumcari to Springer then north to Pueblo and South from Springer to Santa Fe/ Albq.. The Amarillo to Tucumcari would utilize the Old Rock Island row and Tucumcari to Springer would utilize the old Dawson Railway row. North and South of Springer use the present BNSF row. Track would be Class 8 . Cost --Billion dollars. Check this out on Google--it will surprise you.
the state of NM is allowed to give money under certain conditions & terms.
 
The original intent of this discussion was to discuss a possible re-route of the Southwest Chief. I will refrain from getting into the argument but will simply say that I believe that major route changes are not financially viable options at this time. If rerouting was that easy (and cost effective) the EB with its abysmal OTP record would be the first to do it.
 
the state of NM is allowed to give money under certain conditions & terms.
I read through the conditions, and basically, there's no chance in hell that the state can give money to BNSF or Amtrak for the Raton Pass line.

Here's the main rule:

Neither the state nor any county, school district or municipality, except as otherwise provided in this constitution, shall directly or indirectly lend or pledge its credit or make any donation to or in aid of any person, association or public or private corporation or in aid of any private enterprise for the construction of any railroad; provided:
(emphasis mine)
Here's the only potentially relevant exception:

D. nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the state or a county or municipality from creating new job opportunities by providing land, buildings or infrastructure for facilities to support new or expanding businesses if this assistance is granted pursuant to general implementing legislation that is approved by a majority vote of those elected to each house of the legislature....
There is no way that this can be construed to apply to giving money for the Raton Pass line.

For some discussions on court opinions, see here:

http://ua.unm.edu/anti-donation.html

The constitutional clause is constructed very strictly by the courts, prohibiting even actions "in the spirit of the statute" which violate the letter of the statute.

Donating money for the construction of railroads is *specifically called out* as prohibited.

There is no way in hell that the state courts will allow the state to give money away to BNSF.

If the state buys the Raton Pass line, the state can put money into the line. If the line is owned by BNSF, the state is absolutely prohibited from spending one red cent on it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This is how everyone could potentially win if the Southwest Chief is rerouted.
 
the state of NM is allowed to give money under certain conditions & terms.
I read through the conditions, and basically, there's no chance in hell that the state can give money to BNSF or Amtrak for the Raton Pass line.Here's the main rule:
Neither the state nor any county, school district or municipality, except as otherwise provided in this constitution, shall directly or indirectly lend or pledge its credit or make any donation to or in aid of any person, association or public or private corporation or in aid of any private enterprise for the construction of any railroad; provided:
(emphasis mine)Here's the only potentially relevant exception:
D. nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the state or a county or municipality from creating new job opportunities by providing land, buildings or infrastructure for facilities to support new or expanding businesses if this assistance is granted pursuant to general implementing legislation that is approved by a majority vote of those elected to each house of the legislature....
There is no way that this can be construed to apply to giving money for the Raton Pass line.For some discussions on court opinions, see here:http://ua.unm.edu/anti-donation.htmlThe constitutional clause is constructed very strictly by the courts, prohibiting even actions "in the spirit of the statute" which violate the letter of the statute.Donating money for the construction of railroads is *specifically called out* as prohibited.There is no way in hell that the state courts will allow the state to give money away to BNSF.If the state buys the Raton Pass line, the state can put money into the line. If the line is owned by BNSF, the state is absolutely prohibited from spending one red cent on it.
The state of NM and Governor Susana Martinez ordered several studies....study 1 see if the SWC better on the southern route and could NM get or loose more and if the SWC better where she is. Before the recent elections I HAD A MEETING WITH FORMER AG GARY KING whos office is experience is to interpret any confusion of the state constitution....He said under the current act of the anti donation clause the reason it was created for situations like this. But there is a loophole the original makers left....the state can give money if it benefits the states economy and or citizens! So yes NM can participate second study 2 ordered by Susana Martinez was to analyze the constitution to see if that funding could be possible? That study was preformed by the AG office and the Legal Councel Service which on November 6 publicly stated The Same findings Former AG Gary King informed. How I know? I was also there at the meeting in Santa fe with the NMDOT committee and the state transportation committee. Also I spoke with an Amtrak official in regards to this which is good news to Amtrak's ears. Now the comittee informed Amtrak there will be NO FUNDING GRANTED if there is no commitment to maintain service through 2016. No Service in 2016 no Money is where NM stands. The official word will be determined once the 2015 legislation is done.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
the state of NM is allowed to give money under certain conditions & terms.
I read through the conditions, and basically, there's no chance in hell that the state can give money to BNSF or Amtrak for the Raton Pass line.Here's the main rule:
Neither the state nor any county, school district or municipality, except as otherwise provided in this constitution, shall directly or indirectly lend or pledge its credit or make any donation to or in aid of any person, association or public or private corporation or in aid of any private enterprise for the construction of any railroad; provided:
(emphasis mine)Here's the only potentially relevant exception:
D. nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the state or a county or municipality from creating new job opportunities by providing land, buildings or infrastructure for facilities to support new or expanding businesses if this assistance is granted pursuant to general implementing legislation that is approved by a majority vote of those elected to each house of the legislature....
There is no way that this can be construed to apply to giving money for the Raton Pass line.For some discussions on court opinions, see here:http://ua.unm.edu/anti-donation.htmlThe constitutional clause is constructed very strictly by the courts, prohibiting even actions "in the spirit of the statute" which violate the letter of the statute.Donating money for the construction of railroads is *specifically called out* as prohibited.There is no way in hell that the state courts will allow the state to give money away to BNSF.If the state buys the Raton Pass line, the state can put money into the line. If the line is owned by BNSF, the state is absolutely prohibited from spending one red cent on it.
._____________

NMDOT Releases Three Studies Funded by 2014 Legislature

The November 6th meeting was key to the future of the Chief as the first two agenda items were a detailed discussion of the three studies funded by the 2014 legislature and/or commissioned by the New Mexico Department of Transportation.

Here are the highlights of the three studies:

Southwest Chief Rail Service: An Examination of State Authorities and Limitations Pursuant to the Constitution of New Mexico. Arthur J. Waskey, Contract Staff Attorney Legislative Council Service presented. This study focused in particular on the "anti-donation" clause in the Constitution that the New Mexico DOT has sited numerous times as preventing state support for the Chief.

Mr. Waskey summarized his findings right at the beginning of his presentation by saying that he found nothing in the anti-donation clause that would prevent the state from financially supporting the Chief. The clause prohibits donations to private enterprise and the cost of railroad construction. Waskey emphasized that Amtrak is a federally charted corporation, funded by the government and under Congressional control -- essentially an agency of the US government and therefore not a private enterprise. Supporting the Chief is not a donation: in this case Amtrak would have "an obligation" back to the state to provide a service. Waskey emphasized that the NMDOT would have to follow all state procurement rules in negotiating a contract, including a careful determination of costs. The contract would include defining the agreement with appropriate terms, a termination clause, a recognition of limits on state funding, and that the state be held harmless in the event the agreement is terminated. According to Waskey, the NMDOT has a "statutory duty to take all practical steps to improve rail freight and rail passenger service . . . transportation is an essential governmental function . . . the DOT is authorized to enter into an agreement."

Southwest Chief Rail Service: Engineering Cost Estimate Review and Economic Analysis. Frank Sharpless, Transit and Rail Director, Department of Transportation (DOT) presented.

Sharpless provided an overview to Amtrak and the Southwest Chief route and a summary of how the studies were researched. In New Mexico, the study estimates the annual cost for annual operational and maintenance costs at $9,375 million (Amtrak's most recent estimate is $6,727 million/year). For the economic impact, the study compared the economic impact of the current route vs. moving the Chief to the Southern Transcon. If the train is re-routed, ridership to and from New Mexico destinations is estimated to be reduced by 13,000. For employment, - 65; output (Labor and Gross Regional Product -- a measure of newly created value through production within a region) - $3.7 million; and taxes -$800,000.

These statistics -- particularly the economic impact numbers -- require further detailed study. One statistic highlighted by the study is the economic impact to Colfax, Mora, San Miguel and Santa Fe counties if the line is abandoned: $1.1 million annually from BNSF.

During the hearing, Ray Lang, Amtrak Sr. Director for State Relations, answered legislators' questions. He said that "we are approaching an existentialist moment" for the future of the train, and that lacking an agreement, "Amtrak will explore all its options." Tom Church, NMDOT Secretary, later countered, "Amtrak must make a commitment to this route before we fund it -- my opinion." Lang also emphasized that moving the Chief to the Southern Transcon will be a very expensive proposition -- much more expensive than retaining the train on the current route -- due to the need to lengthen sidings, re-time grade crossing signals, and upgrade the signaling system to handle the Chief which operates at speeds higher than freight trains. He also emphasized that Amtrak does not have the funding available to re-route the train.

While Lang said Amtrak would work with BNSF to redo the cost estimates for each of the states in light of the recent TIGER grants to Kansas and Colorado, he did not commit to a timeframe as to when this will be completed.

While the resolution of the anti-donation clause is very positive, we are rapidly approaching the 2015 New Mexico legislative session without a clear definition of Amtrak and BNSF's needs. Church's opinion that Amtrak should commit to the route before the state commits funds for operations and maintenance is very concerning. It has been confirmed in private conversations with several legislators at the hearings.

Although the DOT studies increase the possible needed funding for operations and maintenance and (perhaps) under-estimate the positive economic impact of the Chief
 
why could NM lease the line with BNSF rights with a tonnage payment to NM? Then could NM upgrade the route in NM?
 
why could NM lease the line with BNSF rights with a tonnage payment to NM? Then could NM upgrade the route in NM?
This is what NY State has done with CSX on the Empire Corridor between Pughkeepsie and Hoffmans west of Schenectady, just short of Amsterdam. However, apparently New York is not burdened by wacky laws like NM is.
 
There is one thing I would like to throw out on the table for discussion. Who says the Chief has to run 79MPH over the reroute section. It can just as easily run 70MPH and still make a better time than on the current route. By the Chief running 70 along with the freight trains there will be little need for hopping trains and most of the expensive aspects of the reroute are then non-existent. Stations do not have to be built by Amtrak ether as most town will be more than happy to put in at least a ADA platform for the train to stop at although it might be a little harder by having to make a passenger siding. Also the transcon traffic congestion does very on the time of day too, during the day it is generally busy but not to the extent that the Chief can't operate, but at night it can almost be dead in a since which is most likely when the Chief will run through although that might be a matter that we will not know until the reroute.
 
Not all freights run 70 MPH. Some are limited to 50 or less, and they all need a whole lot of starting and stopping distance. A passenger train really does need a clear path for many, many miles in order to make a respectable running time. This is true over the transcon or any busy main line for that matter. On the Needles Sub, a completely double track line with a handful of sidings, #3 and #4 go up against a TON of freight traffic even in the middle of the night. The dispatchers do well to clear a path for Amtrak but its not always feasible.
 
He said under the current act of the anti donation clause the reason it was created for situations like this. But there is a loophole the original makers left....the state can give money if it benefits the states economy and or citizens!
Unfortunately, nope -- the loophole is *far* more specific than that. It only allows donations under very specific circumstances:
"creating new job opportunities by providing land, buildings or infrastructure for facilities to support new or expanding businesses if this assistance is granted pursuant to general implementing legislation that is approved by a majority vote of those elected to each house of the legislature. "

This clause, designed for "economic development agencies" and similar things, DOES NOT APPLY. First of all, any Raton Pass funding would be special-purpose legislation, not general implementing legislation. Second, BNSF in the Raton region is neither a new business nor an expanding business; and neither is Amtrak!

Mr. Waskey summarized his findings right at the beginning of his presentation by saying that he found nothing in the anti-donation clause that would prevent the state from financially supporting the Chief. The clause prohibits donations to private enterprise and the cost of railroad construction. Waskey emphasized that Amtrak is a federally charted corporation, funded by the government and under Congressional control -- essentially an agency of the US government and therefore not a private enterprise. Supporting the Chief is not a donation: in this case Amtrak would have "an obligation" back to the state to provide a service.
If the line's owned by BNSF, it's a donation to BNSF, which IS a private enterprise. So the entire discussion is irrelevant.

His opinion is deliberately avoiding the key Constitutional point, which is that while the Raton Pass line is owned by BNSF, funding to upgrade the Raton Pass line is a donation to *BNSF*.

The court history of the anti-donation clause is one of *extremely strict construction*.

If NM *BUYS THE LINE*, the anti-donation clause problems go away immediately, of course. There's no problem in contributing operating funding to Amtrak; there's no problem in contributing capital funding to a line owned by Amtrak; there's no problem whatsoever in contributing capital funding to a line owned by the state. There's a problem in contributing capital funding to a line owned by BNSF.

This would be so much simpler if Martinez had consummated the contract to purchase the line.

While the resolution of the anti-donation clause is very positive,
It is NOT resolved. The New Mexico government folks are talking absolute nonsense and will be smacked down HARD by the state courts. There is no loophole available for donations to BNSF for railroad construction! T

This is the *exact situation* which the anti-donation clause was written to deal with. The state has one way out: buy the line, *then* spend money.

we are rapidly approaching the 2015 New Mexico legislative session without a clear definition of Amtrak and BNSF's needs. Church's opinion that Amtrak should commit to the route before the state commits funds for operations and maintenance is very concerning.
This is basically a statement that New Mexico (Governor's office and NMDOT) have no interest in funding the line whatsoever. Since state officials are dissembling regarding the anti-donation clause, and since NMDOT and the government have carefully avoided any discussion of purchasing the line (which would resolve the constitutional problem immediately), there's only one way to interpret this: the state has no intention of spending one red cent, but is trying to avoid saying so.

Amtrak, please don't fall for this. Maybe it's expensive to move to the Transcon, but you're not getting one red cent out of New Mexico.

Lang also emphasized that moving the Chief to the Southern Transcon will be a very expensive proposition -- much more expensive than retaining the train on the current route
Sure, but Amtrak can perhaps get funding for moving the train to the Transcon -- from Texas, Kansas, Wichita, and Amarillo. (Very little work is needed in New Mexico, and the City of Albuquerque might pay for it.) Amtrak's getting no funding, zero, none from New Mexico, they've made it 100% clear. Even if they pass a funding bill, they've carefully arranged to pass an *unconstitutional* funding bill which will be struck down by the courts! Amtrak should want nothing to do with this!
I would like to talk to Ray Lang and get his head straightened out. Martinez and Church are playing him for a fool; their goal seems to be to spend no money whatsoever, but to string Amtrak along so long that Amtrak can't make alternate plans. This is a recipe for cancelling the SW Chief *entirely*.

----

Lang and Boardman need to put this in very blunt terms to Church and Martinez. They need to say: if NM purchases the Raton Pass line from BNSF, Amtrak will stay on the line. If NM does not purchase it, Amtrak will not.

A purchase would make it constitutional for NM to spend more money on the line, and more importantly, would be a show of good faith on the part of a state government which has shown no good faith.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
On April 5, 2011 New Mexico Gov. Susana Martinez signed recently passed state legislation exempting Union Pacific from paying locomotive fuel tax so the railroad company will develop the new facility. Is this not an illegal work around of the state constitution's antidonation clause. It effectively gives the UP an unfair advantage over other railroad fuel purchasers in the state.











0
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This clause, designed for "economic development agencies" and similar things, DOES NOT APPLY. First of all, any Raton Pass funding would be special-purpose legislation, not general implementing legislation. Second, BNSF in the Raton region is neither a new business nor an expanding business; and neither is Amtrak!
Maybe I'm clutching at straws here, but if say, Amtrak were to suspend the SWC even for one day, then its reintroduction would count as a new or expanded service, would it not?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top