Viewliner order awarded to CAF USA

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I wonder if there's going to be any way to differentiate these when booking a train, if the new ones don't have toilets in-room. I imagine some people don't like the toilets but others do, and if there's one car of each type on a train, I just wonder if you'll be able to book a room with a toilet or without.

I realize it's far too early to answer this, I'm just wondering out loud.
The effective way to make everyone happy would be to have four roomettes with toilets and eight without (or maybe 6 and 6) in every single level sleeping car, and give people who are booking a sleeping car compartment three types of compartments to choose from instead of just two.

(And unless they figure out how to put a 6' 6" long berth in the bedrooms, not everyone who wants a private toilet can comfortably upgrade to a bedroom.)

Also, I've gotten wondering how wide a coach seat in a Viewliner Coach would be compared to a coach seat in an Amfleet. How wide is the interior of a Viewliner vs an Amfleet, and how wide is the aisle in an Amfleet vs in Acela Business Class?
 
Also, I've gotten wondering how wide a coach seat in a Viewliner Coach would be compared to a coach seat in an Amfleet. How wide is the interior of a Viewliner vs an Amfleet, and how wide is the aisle in an Amfleet vs in Acela Business Class?
From what I've found, the Viewliners and Amfleet cars are both 10 1/2 feet wide, and both have a bulge at the side (the purpose of which seems to be to make it feel like there's more room). The Viewliners are taller, though. You could put the luggage rack - or airliner-style overhead bins - higher up in a Viewliner, and it'd feel like there was more room than in an Amfleet car.

I don't know anything about aisle width...
 
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They need to be in museums now, but in the mean time you're in a rolling museum.
When they're not bad-ordered, that is.

I believe there are 24 active Heritage diners. Only 15 are required daily.
There are technically 19 cars still on the roster, 17 of them are actually roadworthy, 16 of which are required for service. Amtrak has a spare diner in NY, and if any of them fail in Chicago, Hialeah, or New Orleans, the train gets sent out without one. If two fail in New York, trains get sent out without them.

Some of these cars are almost as old as me (and that's old!) It's time to send them to the museums where they belong.
I agree that the cars are old, and the Amtrak cars are wrecks, but my point is that VIA is using cars just as old, and those cars are in great shape. The difference is that VIA's restorations were real restorations that produced modern cars in an old shell. The VIA cars are also maintained meticulously. The same basic equipment provides first class cars for first class dining on VIA, and a junk cars for OK dining on Amtrak.

Amtrak has always loved buying new stuff and, better yet, new stuff that they have to design from scratch and no one else buys. Restorations are not as "sexy" and do not create as many jobs (important for political considerations). So, regardless of the economics, buying new is more attractive to Amtrak than fixing old. But, it certainly could be done and, if the result was anything like the VIA diners, how great would that be?
Bill, you know not of what you speak. VIA Rail operates two trains that require diners, and neither of those trains operate daily. Amtrak has been running the guts out of those cars. As I noted above, essentially all of the cars are on the road. They are having the wheels rolled off of them. It would not surprise me at all to know that the mileage on the Amtrak cars was double the VIA cars. Actually, yes it would. I would be surprised if it was only double.

Its not just the age that are killing them. Its use. According to a friend of mine that works in Sunnyside, what remains of the once proud Heritage fleet suffers from one truly major and insurmountable problem- metal fatigue. Its not the trucks, nor the wiring, nor the interiors, nor the equipment. Its the cars basic shell that is wearing out. They are breaking apart. It would be more expensive to preserve these cars then to build new ones.

It would be like taking what remains of the third Bugatti Atlantic and "restoring it". It was hit by a train shortly after it was built. Restoring it would be taking the original front chassis rail, unbending it, and rebuilding one around it. It was actually the first car, the prototype, and it's body was built out of magnesium. The train caught fire on impact. Need I say more?

Rebuilding the heritage cars would be a similar effort.

I hate to say it but I have to agree with the Lion!!! :rolleyes:
 
But I have not generally come across railfans in other countries who keep insisting that 50 year old stuff be fixed and put back to general use. Indeed many vocally criticize their railways when they try to do anything remotely like that.
I think that's a testament to how well built and designed the old Budd and Pullman cars were, though (I'm not sure about ACF; I've heard mixed things about maintenance on those cars). I've ridden in old trains in other countries and they just don't really compare.

You know, we were the world leader in rail travel up until about the late 1950's. And with the exception of speed, no other country has ever really equaled that standard of travel since then either (and neither have we). So I think there are perfectly rational reasons for wanting to preserve some vestige of that, especially in the absence of any better alternative. (Even for me, as a fan of heritage equipment, if the options were a) preserve the heritage fleet, or b) have a new, state of the art HSR system, I'd opt for the latter. But that's not the choice. The choice is between preserving old cars and buying new cars that do basically the same things, from a customer perspective.)

I like the Viewliners and I'm sure I will like the new cars, whatever they're actually called (and I read the press release again, it just says they're "similar" to the Viewliners). But those old heritage cars had real personality, which is one thing Amtrak has purposefully stripped out of all of their newer cars.

By the way, other countries do try to preserve modes of travel that they have led in. Look at England and the QE2, which is what, 50 years old now and still sailing? And they just recently produced the QM2, which is another true ocean liner (as opposed to a cruise ship, meaning it is designed for actual transport). This is also an outmoded form of travel, but they refuse to let it go, and they've proven that these ships can still be profitable regardless of how "obsolete" traveling by boat is seen by the rest of the world.
Sorry the QE2 has been retired for a year or two... But a new QE3 which is coming out in October! :D

Check out Cunards website! www.cunard.com
 
By the way, other countries do try to preserve modes of travel that they have led in. Look at England and the QE2, which is what, 50 years old now and still sailing? And they just recently produced the QM2, which is another true ocean liner (as opposed to a cruise ship, meaning it is designed for actual transport). This is also an outmoded form of travel, but they refuse to let it go, and they've proven that these ships can still be profitable regardless of how "obsolete" traveling by boat is seen by the rest of the world.
The QE2 was retired over two years ago and has been rotting away in Dubai.

There is a new Queen Elisabeth II but its only 2 years old, built in Italy

I think you mean the Queen Victoria!!
 
I wonder if there's going to be any way to differentiate these when booking a train, if the new ones don't have toilets in-room. I imagine some people don't like the toilets but others do, and if there's one car of each type on a train, I just wonder if you'll be able to book a room with a toilet or without.

I realize it's far too early to answer this, I'm just wondering out loud.
Probably no way to tell, the ticketing process has no way to know how they're building a trainset. Especially as far out as a lot of us book.
I'm not sure that Amtrak will do this, but they may well confine the new cars to certain trains, that way you'd know by booking say the LSL, that you'd be getting a car without the toilet in the roomette.
 
The only true non-revenue things in a consist are a locomotive (obviously a necessity), baggage car, and dorm car. The Diners typically do not make much money since their primary customer is sleeping car passengers who have their meals included. There is a small amount of revenue produced by sales of alcohol and sales to coach passengers. Overall I would argue that the lounge produces more revenue and lower direct expenses since it only takes one man to work it, more hours available to make sales, and everyone has to pay regardless of class of service. Granted the lounges are probably losing money overall, but its a necessity to remain competitive in the marketplace.
As noted by another, the baggage cars do produce revenue both from those who bring more bags than they can bring for free and from Express Shipping.

Regarding the dining cars, Amtrak allocates revenue from the sleepers to the dining car making it a much bigger source of revenue than you give it credit for. In fact, back when Congress forced Amtrak to cut food service losses, I saw a few stories that suggested that the biggest loosers for Amtrak were the cafe cars. Although it seemed to be that it was the short haul cafe cars that lost the most money. But it certainly wasn't the dining cars that were losing the most money.
 
The Queen Mary 2 was one of several shots fired from the phalli of several major cruise operators in a pissing contest to see how grand a ship they could build. The Queen Mary 2, by my estimation, wins the contest hands down. Why? It is engineered to be an ocean liner. It is built like an ocean liner, a real ship. Not a modular floating hotel that really has a very limited ability to deal with rough seas.

Do not get caught on a modern cruise ship on the open sea in a big storm. Veteran sea dogs are known to get very bad cases of mal de mare. Actually, they don't sail on "repositioning cruises" if there is particularly bad weather forecast. Their ability to stay afloat in heavy north Atlantic weather is questionable, to say the least. They are top heavy, built for providing luxury cruising on the very calm Caribbean, Pacific, and Alaskan waters. Most certainly not on hell's own fury riding the Labrador.

The Queen Mary 2 is not a cruise ship. It is an ocean liner, built for braving heavy sea. While Cunard would most likely cancel a trans-atlantic cruise going into particularly bad weather, the QM2 could probably survive a class 4 hurricane. (Not that the passengers would enjoy it much.) I once believed that the QE2 would always be the last of the breed. But it is not so. The last of the breed, most definitely, is the Queen Mary 2. The likes of it will not pass this way again. Like New York Penn Station, or Grand Central Terminal, or Frank R. Lautenberg Secaucus Junction, it is a monument to the egos of the people who commissioned their building.

The other two long-surviving ocean liners, the SS United States, and the SS France, will never be recomissioned. Actually, the SS France was scrapped recently.
 
All the liners of the "Queen" Line look to be ocean liners. Is the sea-worthiness not true of the new QE or the QV?

Getting back on topic...

I have a few design suggestions for Amtrak, in no particular order-

Design for the Viewliner Baggage Car:

4851314032_c28ab46c08_b.jpg


Design for the much-needed Viewliner Sightseer Lounge!:

4850694749_ecf5ff56cd_b.jpg


Hey we can dream, right? ;)

Rob
 
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I came up with a few designs myself as well. Click on the smaller pics for a large view!

Dome-Lounge:



LoungeFloor2.jpg


viewlinerlounge1.jpg


viewlinerlounge2.jpg


Dorm-Bag:





Bag:



viewlinerbag2.jpg


peter
 
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I think the biggest problem I'm seeing with all the Sightseer Viewliner concepts including mine is just plain lack of space. Unless you take out the food service and put that in another car, it's just not gonna feel as roomy as the Superliner and accommodate as many people. And you can't relocate the food service of course. Cool concepts all around!

Rob
 
Nice ideas for the lounge! I'm thinking that the way-on-the-bottom windows would probably have to come off for safety (should it derail and roll over, ballast and debris would likely enter the car through them) and also because a window at floor level would not contribute as much to an open feel in the car as does the ceiling windows. Other than that it's a great design, along with the baggage and the dorms. I hope someone from Amtrak sees this and is inspired to throw in 25 of these into the next order.
 
I will be the first to admit having a "bashful" kidney but I really enjoyed the toilets in the Viewliner rooms. I'm all for rolling out of bed, quietly and quickly using the toilet and climbing right back into bed and going back to sleep. Sometimes if I get up and walk down a train hallway to use the bathroom, by the time I'm done in the middle of the night, I'm fully awake and its harder to get back to sleep.
 
Nice ideas for the lounge! I'm thinking that the way-on-the-bottom windows would probably have to come off for safety (should it derail and roll over, ballast and debris would likely enter the car through them) and also because a window at floor level would not contribute as much to an open feel in the car as does the ceiling windows. Other than that it's a great design, along with the baggage and the dorms. I hope someone from Amtrak sees this and is inspired to throw in 25 of these into the next order.
Oh I should have mentioned; the "final" plan (the one with the 3d models) for the lounge I came up with would be a double decker. Although I admit I'm not an engineer or architect so I don't know it if would actually physically work. The upper level is all 'scenic' seating (like the sightseer); and the lower level contains the food-service section. If you look at the little floor plan I came up with the one side has the counter for ordering food as well as a stand-up eating area (like what is seen on a lot of European trains) the other side of the car would have your CCC half-dome tables, one could make the stand up area more like a bar similar to the Cascades cafe. And then the far end of the car (on the middle level) has your standard tables.

Again I'm no engineer of architect (just a graphic designer) so I really don't know if that would work. However If someone had technical drawings of a viewliner I'd love to look them over and compair them to the Budd vista-domes.

peter
 
Oh I should have mentioned; the "final" plan (the one with the 3d models) for the lounge I came up with would be a double decker. Although I admit I'm not an engineer or architect so I don't know it if would actually physically work. The upper level is all 'scenic' seating (like the sightseer); and the lower level contains the food-service section. If you look at the little floor plan I came up with the one side has the counter for ordering food as well as a stand-up eating area (like what is seen on a lot of European trains) the other side of the car would have your CCC half-dome tables, one could make the stand up area more like a bar similar to the Cascades cafe. And then the far end of the car (on the middle level) has your standard tables.

peter
Well, I'm thinking that the obvious big challenge with a double decker concept is, of course, the height restrictions of Penn Stations and tunnels to/fro, yet NJT has a design that conquered that. The reason why their design works is that the ends of the so-called 'multi-level' fleet have the corners "shaved" off, so that as part of the cars' overhang, they won't scrape or knock into anything. The double-decker part is concentrated in the center, which your design does, so that might be workable. And there's no reason why we can't have a snack food section. There's more room in your design to store supplies, i.e. an upstairs and downstairs. I would consider not putting in any restrooms because the this car design would preclude any room for sewage tanks and such. As for interiors perhaps three different seating arrangements: the standard booth on one end, a window facing thingy in the center sightseer part, and a sort of European-style round tabled cafe at the other end, to give that section a sort of club-by feel. It would not be like the failed Acela-bistro design. My only worry that might prove insurrmountable is that it may not be able to comply with ADA, because the only way anyone can move from one end of the car to the other would be stairs.
 
Oh I should have mentioned; the "final" plan (the one with the 3d models) for the lounge I came up with would be a double decker. Although I admit I'm not an engineer or architect so I don't know it if would actually physically work. The upper level is all 'scenic' seating (like the sightseer); and the lower level contains the food-service section. If you look at the little floor plan I came up with the one side has the counter for ordering food as well as a stand-up eating area (like what is seen on a lot of European trains) the other side of the car would have your CCC half-dome tables, one could make the stand up area more like a bar similar to the Cascades cafe. And then the far end of the car (on the middle level) has your standard tables.

peter
Well, I'm thinking that the obvious big challenge with a double decker concept is, of course, the height restrictions of Penn Stations and tunnels to/fro, yet NJT has a design that conquered that. The reason why their design works is that the ends of the so-called 'multi-level' fleet have the corners "shaved" off, so that as part of the cars' overhang, they won't scrape or knock into anything. The double-decker part is concentrated in the center, which your design does, so that might be workable. And there's no reason why we can't have a snack food section. There's more room in your design to store supplies, i.e. an upstairs and downstairs. I would consider not putting in any restrooms because the this car design would preclude any room for sewage tanks and such. As for interiors perhaps three different seating arrangements: the standard booth on one end, a window facing thingy in the center sightseer part, and a sort of European-style round tabled cafe at the other end, to give that section a sort of club-by feel. It would not be like the failed Acela-bistro design. My only worry that might prove insurrmountable is that it may not be able to comply with ADA, because the only way anyone can move from one end of the car to the other would be stairs.
Actually the height would be the same as a regular viewliner. The added height comes by dropping the floor in the middle instead of raising the roof. as for ADA compliant I was thinking one would be able to have ramps instead of stairs; one might be able to fit an elevator in there as will (ooh could be the 1st train car with a wheelchair elevator)

peter
 
The Queens Victoria and Elizabeth [3] are not ocean liners, they are, structurally and basic design, Carnival Vista-class cruisers. The Vista-Class is a class of large ocean liners about 950 feet long. There are several varients on the design, but they are all basically the same design. The fleet includes:

Holland America Line: MS Zuiderdam, MS Oosterdam, MS Westerdam, MS Noordam, MS Eurodam, MS Nieuw Amsterdam*

P&O Cruises: MS Arcadia

Costa Cruises: Costa Luminosa, Costa Deliziosa

Cunard: Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth.

*I have this feeling HAL has run out of cities to name its ships after, but people who sail HAL do seem to think of them as "the dam ships." Silliness for perpetuation of a pun.

They are modularly built, and are intended to be cruise ships. While, like any large ship, they can cross the ocean, it is not their intended purpose, and they are not good at it.

Anyway, the Viewliner designs submitted are interesting, but unrealistic. Peter, take a shot at designing one on the basis that the basic car shell must remain the same.
 
But his designs do that already, using the present shell, that is. Only difference is the upper windows can be identical to the Superliner sightseer lounge, and the lower floor will displace some holding tanks. I'm thinking Amtrak can come up with an unprecedented and wild advertising campaign for all it's long distance trains using this Viewliner design, or something close to it. Where else can one boogie to some dance music, smooch under the moon and stars, or just relax with your arms stretched over your head while flying on the ground to New Orleans or Florida or Chicago? Getting creative with low cost LED lighting and interior design can produce a 'killer' lounge car that will have passengers getting on just for the trip.
 
Except it's not. Because of the sunken floor, you have to majorly modify the shell and possibly the frame. This creates a unique car even if it is a "Viewliner" that has more differences to the other Viewliners. For a lounge, one with just windows overhead makes more sense because it does modify the shell, but the overall shape doesn't change that much. However, it still modifies the structural soundness of the car so if we do see VII Lounges, they probably won't have overhead or wrap-around windows.
 
Actually the height would be the same as a regular viewliner. The added height comes by dropping the floor in the middle instead of raising the roof.
That won't work. I'm not sure of the exact heights but both the LIRR's C3's and NJT's bi-level cars are noticeably taller than the Viewliners, and you're still in bump-your-head territory even with a sunken floor. Trying to do that with the height of a Viewliner would probably leave you with about 4 feet of standing space on each level, once you take into account the actual structure required and the clearance required above the track.

I think Amtrak could incorporate elements from both the Viewliner and the LIRR/NJT cars into a new east coast dome car. But it wouldn't be strictly a Viewliner, it would be a real dome car, with a sunken section and a bubble on top (just a shorter bubble than earlier domes). Actually there *were* a few dome cars built that could fit within east coast clearances - not sure if there are any photos on the net but I have the "Domeliners" book and there are a couple in there. They look a little weird but they are definitely better than a standard lounge or even a standard Viewliner. So this is definitely possible. But you would need to make a taller car than a regular Viewliner and have it be two levels.

We're just dreaming now, though; I can't see Amtrak spending the money required for this.
 
Except it's not. Because of the sunken floor, you have to majorly modify the shell and possibly the frame. This creates a unique car even if it is a "Viewliner" that has more differences to the other Viewliners. For a lounge, one with just windows overhead makes more sense because it does modify the shell, but the overall shape doesn't change that much. However, it still modifies the structural soundness of the car so if we do see VII Lounges, they probably won't have overhead or wrap-around windows.
Does it modify the structure more than a Superliner Lounge does compared to a Superliner sleeper/diner/coach? I know they're not modular like the Viewliners but I'd expect the all the Superliners to have the same basic structure.

Won't they'll need different body configurations for the sleeper, diner, baggage and bag/dorm cars anyway? It's not like you can convert a baggage car to a diner; unless you want to eat in the dark!
 
Yes, all Superliners have the same basic structure.

Making a Viewliner into a dual level car would require a complete redesign and the result would end up looking nothing like a Viewliner.
 
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