Amtrak's outrageous treatment of passengers

Went to visit my grandmother in Pennsylvania who recently turned 100 via a roundtrip Amtrak trainride. There were delays at first, and a frantic peddle to the metal bus ride to catch a connection we'd missed by 8 hours, a crazy man who they didn't do anything about who wandered the train well dressed but shoeless and missing a toe making no sense and touching people inappropriately, and poorly planned out smoking stops that were shortened or cancelled due to delays. But all in all, most Amtrak on board and station employees were friendly, efficient, and helpful. They let me practice my sax twice a day in the bar car to the compliments of many other passengers and I found many interesting conversations and made new friends. The food wasn't as expensive as I'd thought in the Dining Car and the conductor who put off dealing with the toeless lunatic was even amusing as when we'd tell her, she'd come back at us with "You think that's crazy? We had a guy on here once who....." and then proceed to tell us horrific tales of lunatics on the train "....and started into swinging that sledge hammer and....", "....And there was urine all over everybody! And it was that real rancid urine too....", "And that's the tale of 'the Zephyr Succubus, or the walking dead woman of track 29", "....but it turns out the guy who'd escaped from the mental institution was on Amtrak the whole 3 weeks he was missing and didn't even have a ticket!" till finally she had a run in herself with old 9 toes and there was a two hour wait while the 911 squad came, talked him down, and hauled him away. Then there was another hour to wait as the weenie English teacher guy who was correcting everybody's grammar had a Sensitivity Melt-down over Crazy 9 toes getting hauled away. "WWwwhhhyyy?! (Suh-ahb sob sob sobbity sob sob) Wwhhyyy is the world oh so very Cuh-rue-el?! (s-s-s-s-o-o-o-b-B)" And the two Amish couples who got all hot on each other after examining a cell phone close up. It was all very adventurous.

The return trip to San Francisco was going well....uneventful, relaxing, beautiful scenery....until the conductors changed at the end of Colorado. I'd noted two undercover cops during our Denver stop and chatted it up with them with small talk trying to feel them out and immediatly after they shook me off, they rigorously searched a Latino family who I surmised later thought I'd somehow prompted the search as I'd been seen talking with these offensive cops. I was already asleep for the night (I thought) when I woke to this Kris May new conductor shoving me into wakefulness with two of the Latino kids pointing at me. She demanded I follow her to the downstairs isolation compartment where this obsessive sneezer guy fidgeted and paced and played a banjo he admitted to having no idea how to tune or play and made me bring my bags. Why? Complaints of body odor that only she, the Hispanic family who thought I'd narced them out, and this couple who'd been annoyed at my negative assessment of their plan to sue Amtrak could smell.

From a sound sleep to having to explain I'm an AIDS patient but with no current opportunistic infections to cause any odor, that I'd been on the train for 3 days but had changed my underwear and socks each day, alternated 2 pairs of clean pants and two clean shirts, AND washed up each a.m. and p.m. in the tiny "cheap seats" train bathrooms so it was unlikely that I stank as accused. She noted 6 complaints (all from folks who'd thought they had a gripe against me) and got real confrontational when I ventured out of my cell for a beer a little later as evidentily I had lost my aisle and club car privledges too. She made me wait in the sightseeing car while downstairs she loudly argued insistence that her coworkers team with her against me but the bartender vouched for me against her claims I must be drunk when actually had celebrated my adventure with a Bloody Mary at breakfast time and one beer with my dinner. The new conservative male conductor who refused to give his name (Kris May only gave hers after I insisted 3 times) at least didn't think I was as bad as Ms May claimed and couldn't give a definitive answer when I asked him if I smelled bad. I had to go by my old seat each time I left and returned to my hell hole with the sneezy banjo guy which I only got to do twice.

:angry: Each time I got to my old seat at the top of the stairs the guy who had been trying to fabricate a lawsuit against Amtrak earlier would rip into me! Finally he threatened to throw me down the stairs if I passed through again and I then went running for the conductor with him chasing behind me! He beat me to the male conductor claiming I was back there harassing the people who'd made the bogus complaints about me and the conductor made a snap judgement to put me off the train and didn't care about the guy threatening me or the fact that none of the other passengers thought I was a problem. At that we were pulling into Provo, Utah and they had the cops screeching up and the boarded to the histrionic rantings of Conductor May demanding I be removed! I cooperated and humiliated I was searched and asked leading questions but they found no reason to arrest me but made a stink when I told them I had AIDS because I should have informed them immediatly they said as I questioned why revealing this to them 10 seconds after meeting them wasn't immediate enough. They warmed up as they realized that for whatever reason; my long hair and beard? Stage name of Lucifer? My openness about my homosexuality? My frank disclosures of my AIDS status?, I had gotten a bum rap. They called me a cab and left and although the cabbie tried to keep me from riding with him by denying the $48 quote to the Salt Lake City Airport he'd given the Provo cops for me asking first if I had $65, acting annoyed that I did but steadily rose the fare (no meter) till when it hit $110 and I saw a long term parking area I bellowed "STOP THIS CAR!" threw a crumpled fifty at him and scurried like "The Fugitive" with my saxophone and two heavy packs up the steep highway embankment, sliding frantically in the landscaping cedar chips to the airport's employee lot. I begged my way onto an employee shuttle, had San Francisco friends get me a flight in a Winnebego with wings then an upgrade in Reno to a Bluebird School bus with wings, and despite the $333 airfare that I cannot afford, was grateful to get home this past Friday 4/13/07 where even after all this and a sleepless night in the airport, and running from rip off in a heavy coat dragging major poundage of belongings, I still didn't smell bad swear the friends who picked me up.

<_< I figure Amtrak AT LEAST owes me an apology for forever scarring what will probably be my last ever visit with Gramom, $333 for airfare, and $50 for the cab. What an absolute nightmare.

Lucifer said:

Went to visit my grandmother in Pennsylvania who recently turned 100 via a roundtrip Amtrak trainride. There were delays at first, and a frantic peddle to the metal bus ride to catch a connection we'd missed by 8 hours, a crazy man who they didn't do anything about who wandered the train well dressed but shoeless and missing a toe making no sense and touching people inappropriately, and poorly planned out smoking stops that were shortened or cancelled due to delays. But all in all, most Amtrak on board and station employees were friendly, efficient, and helpful. They let me practice my sax twice a day in the bar car to the compliments of many other passengers and I found many interesting conversations and made new friends. The food wasn't as expensive as I'd thought in the Dining Car and the conductor who put off dealing with the toeless lunatic was even amusing as when we'd tell her, she'd come back at us with "You think that's crazy? We had a guy on here once who....." and then proceed to tell us horrific tales of lunatics on the train "....and started into swinging that sledge hammer and....", "....And there was urine all over everybody! And it was that real rancid urine too....", "And that's the tale of 'the Zephyr Succubus, or the walking dead woman of track 29", "....but it turns out the guy who'd escaped from the mental institution was on Amtrak the whole 3 weeks he was missing and didn't even have a ticket!" till finally she had a run in herself with old 9 toes and there was a two hour wait while the 911 squad came, talked him down, and hauled him away. Then there was another hour to wait as the weenie English teacher guy who was correcting everybody's grammar had a Sensitivity Melt-down over Crazy 9 toes getting hauled away. "WWwwhhhyyy?! (Suh-ahb sob sob sobbity sob sob) Wwhhyyy is the world oh so very Cuh-rue-el?! (s-s-s-s-o-o-o-b-B)" And the two Amish couples who got all hot on each other after examining a cell phone close up. It was all very adventurous. The return trip to San Francisco was going well....uneventful, relaxing, beautiful scenery....until the conductors changed at the end of Colorado. I'd noted two undercover cops during our Denver stop and chatted it up with them with small talk trying to feel them out and immediatly after they shook me off, they rigorously searched a Latino family who I surmised later thought I'd somehow prompted the search as I'd been seen talking with these offensive cops. I was already asleep for the night (I thought) when I woke to this Kris May new conductor shoving me into wakefulness with two of the Latino kids pointing at me. She demanded I follow her to the downstairs isolation compartment where this obsessive sneezer guy fidgeted and paced and played a banjo he admitted to having no idea how to tune or play and made me bring my bags. Why? Complaints of body odor that only she, the Hispanic family who thought I'd narced them out, and this couple who'd been annoyed at my negative assessment of their plan to sue Amtrak could smell.

From a sound sleep to having to explain I'm an AIDS patient but with no current opportunistic infections to cause any odor, that I'd been on the train for 3 days but had changed my underwear and socks each day, alternated 2 pairs of clean pants and two clean shirts, AND washed up each a.m. and p.m. in the tiny "cheap seats" train bathrooms so it was unlikely that I stank as accused. She noted 6 complaints (all from folks who'd thought they had a gripe against me) and got real confrontational when I ventured out of my cell for a beer a little later as evidentily I had lost my aisle and club car privledges too. She made me wait in the sightseeing car while downstairs she loudly argued insistence that her coworkers team with her against me but the bartender vouched for me against her claims I must be drunk when actually had celebrated my adventure with a Bloody Mary at breakfast time and one beer with my dinner. The new conservative male conductor who refused to give his name (Kris May only gave hers after I insisted 3 times) at least didn't think I was as bad as Ms May claimed and couldn't give a definitive answer when I asked him if I smelled bad. I had to go by my old seat each time I left and returned to my hell hole with the sneezy banjo guy which I only got to do twice.

:angry: Each time I got to my old seat at the top of the stairs the guy who had been trying to fabricate a lawsuit against Amtrak earlier would rip into me! Finally he threatened to throw me down the stairs if I passed through again and I then went running for the conductor with him chasing behind me! He beat me to the male conductor claiming I was back there harassing the people who'd made the bogus complaints about me and the conductor made a snap judgement to put me off the train and didn't care about the guy threatening me or the fact that none of the other passengers thought I was a problem. At that we were pulling into Provo, Utah and they had the cops screeching up and the boarded to the histrionic rantings of Conductor May demanding I be removed! I cooperated and humiliated I was searched and asked leading questions but they found no reason to arrest me but made a stink when I told them I had AIDS because I should have informed them immediatly they said as I questioned why revealing this to them 10 seconds after meeting them wasn't immediate enough. They warmed up as they realized that for whatever reason; my long hair and beard? Stage name of Lucifer? My openness about my homosexuality? My frank disclosures of my AIDS status?, I had gotten a bum rap. They called me a cab and left and although the cabbie tried to keep me from riding with him by denying the $48 quote to the Salt Lake City Airport he'd given the Provo cops for me asking first if I had $65, acting annoyed that I did but steadily rose the fare (no meter) till when it hit $110 and I saw a long term parking area I bellowed "STOP THIS CAR!" threw a crumpled fifty at him and scurried like "The Fugitive" with my saxophone and two heavy packs up the steep highway embankment, sliding frantically in the landscaping cedar chips to the airport's employee lot. I begged my way onto an employee shuttle, had San Francisco friends get me a flight in a Winnebego with wings then an upgrade in Reno to a Bluebird School bus with wings, and despite the $333 airfare that I cannot afford, was grateful to get home this past Friday 4/13/07 where even after all this and a sleepless night in the airport, and running from rip off in a heavy coat dragging major poundage of belongings, I still didn't smell bad swear the friends who picked me up.

<_< I figure Amtrak AT LEAST owes me an apology for forever scarring what will probably be my last ever visit with Gramom, $333 for airfare, and $50 for the cab. What an absolute nightmare.

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So many replies to your......questionable experience comes to mind!! Have you ever considered writing works of fiction?

Theres 2 sides to every story. Sounds like there might be 4 or 5 sides to this story.

You describe so many "issues"... yet you seem to be at the heart/the source of each of them. It sounds as if the crew treated you as humanely as possible given your condition on board the train.

Guest said:

jg greenwood said:

Lucifer said:

Went to visit my grandmother in Pennsylvania who recently turned 100 via a roundtrip Amtrak trainride. There were delays at first, and a frantic peddle to the metal bus ride to catch a connection we'd missed by 8 hours, a crazy man who they didn't do anything about who wandered the train well dressed but shoeless and missing a toe making no sense and touching people inappropriately, and poorly planned out smoking stops that were shortened or cancelled due to delays. But all in all, most Amtrak on board and station employees were friendly, efficient, and helpful. They let me practice my sax twice a day in the bar car to the compliments of many other passengers and I found many interesting conversations and made new friends. The food wasn't as expensive as I'd thought in the Dining Car and the conductor who put off dealing with the toeless lunatic was even amusing as when we'd tell her, she'd come back at us with "You think that's crazy? We had a guy on here once who....." and then proceed to tell us horrific tales of lunatics on the train "....and started into swinging that sledge hammer and....", "....And there was urine all over everybody! And it was that real rancid urine too....", "And that's the tale of 'the Zephyr Succubus, or the walking dead woman of track 29", "....but it turns out the guy who'd escaped from the mental institution was on Amtrak the whole 3 weeks he was missing and didn't even have a ticket!" till finally she had a run in herself with old 9 toes and there was a two hour wait while the 911 squad came, talked him down, and hauled him away. Then there was another hour to wait as the weenie English teacher guy who was correcting everybody's grammar had a Sensitivity Melt-down over Crazy 9 toes getting hauled away. "WWwwhhhyyy?! (Suh-ahb sob sob sobbity sob sob) Wwhhyyy is the world oh so very Cuh-rue-el?! (s-s-s-s-o-o-o-b-B)" And the two Amish couples who got all hot on each other after examining a cell phone close up. It was all very adventurous.

The return trip to San Francisco was going well....uneventful, relaxing, beautiful scenery....until the conductors changed at the end of Colorado. I'd noted two undercover cops during our Denver stop and chatted it up with them with small talk trying to feel them out and immediatly after they shook me off, they rigorously searched a Latino family who I surmised later thought I'd somehow prompted the search as I'd been seen talking with these offensive cops. I was already asleep for the night (I thought) when I woke to this Kris May new conductor shoving me into wakefulness with two of the Latino kids pointing at me. She demanded I follow her to the downstairs isolation compartment where this obsessive sneezer guy fidgeted and paced and played a banjo he admitted to having no idea how to tune or play and made me bring my bags. Why? Complaints of body odor that only she, the Hispanic family who thought I'd narced them out, and this couple who'd been annoyed at my negative assessment of their plan to sue Amtrak could smell.

From a sound sleep to having to explain I'm an AIDS patient but with no current opportunistic infections to cause any odor, that I'd been on the train for 3 days but had changed my underwear and socks each day, alternated 2 pairs of clean pants and two clean shirts, AND washed up each a.m. and p.m. in the tiny "cheap seats" train bathrooms so it was unlikely that I stank as accused. She noted 6 complaints (all from folks who'd thought they had a gripe against me) and got real confrontational when I ventured out of my cell for a beer a little later as evidentily I had lost my aisle and club car privledges too. She made me wait in the sightseeing car while downstairs she loudly argued insistence that her coworkers team with her against me but the bartender vouched for me against her claims I must be drunk when actually had celebrated my adventure with a Bloody Mary at breakfast time and one beer with my dinner. The new conservative male conductor who refused to give his name (Kris May only gave hers after I insisted 3 times) at least didn't think I was as bad as Ms May claimed and couldn't give a definitive answer when I asked him if I smelled bad. I had to go by my old seat each time I left and returned to my hell hole with the sneezy banjo guy which I only got to do twice.

:angry: Each time I got to my old seat at the top of the stairs the guy who had been trying to fabricate a lawsuit against Amtrak earlier would rip into me! Finally he threatened to throw me down the stairs if I passed through again and I then went running for the conductor with him chasing behind me! He beat me to the male conductor claiming I was back there harassing the people who'd made the bogus complaints about me and the conductor made a snap judgement to put me off the train and didn't care about the guy threatening me or the fact that none of the other passengers thought I was a problem. At that we were pulling into Provo, Utah and they had the cops screeching up and the boarded to the histrionic rantings of Conductor May demanding I be removed! I cooperated and humiliated I was searched and asked leading questions but they found no reason to arrest me but made a stink when I told them I had AIDS because I should have informed them immediatly they said as I questioned why revealing this to them 10 seconds after meeting them wasn't immediate enough. They warmed up as they realized that for whatever reason; my long hair and beard? Stage name of Lucifer? My openness about my homosexuality? My frank disclosures of my AIDS status?, I had gotten a bum rap. They called me a cab and left and although the cabbie tried to keep me from riding with him by denying the $48 quote to the Salt Lake City Airport he'd given the Provo cops for me asking first if I had $65, acting annoyed that I did but steadily rose the fare (no meter) till when it hit $110 and I saw a long term parking area I bellowed "STOP THIS CAR!" threw a crumpled fifty at him and scurried like "The Fugitive" with my saxophone and two heavy packs up the steep highway embankment, sliding frantically in the landscaping cedar chips to the airport's employee lot. I begged my way onto an employee shuttle, had San Francisco friends get me a flight in a Winnebego with wings then an upgrade in Reno to a Bluebird School bus with wings, and despite the $333 airfare that I cannot afford, was grateful to get home this past Friday 4/13/07 where even after all this and a sleepless night in the airport, and running from rip off in a heavy coat dragging major poundage of belongings, I still didn't smell bad swear the friends who picked me up.

<_< I figure Amtrak AT LEAST owes me an apology for forever scarring what will probably be my last ever visit with Gramom, $333 for airfare, and $50 for the cab. What an absolute nightmare.

Click to expand...

 

So many replies to your......questionable experience comes to mind!! Have you ever considered writing works of fiction?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

If you are questioning the validity of my claim sir, then I am offended. I realize this site is full of Amtrak Train lovers and for some, this love may be blind but know how very crushed I feel, as a train lover myself, to be treated as badly as I was treated.

I was one of the few passengers defending Amtrak after the Eastbound portion of my trip as all others were swearing never to ride Amtrak again. I explained that this would be giving into the bullies. The freight Lines who now own the tracks that Amtrak rents from them could be alot more cooperative about scheduling their Freight Trains that take priority over the passenger trains, around the needs of travellers and the strong airline lobbyists should be considered less agreeably by an administration that okays the continued cutting of Amtrak staff. Most recently I'm told that the Brakemen were let go and I am amazed that remaining staff has done such a good job of assuming the work of positions now cut. The company as a whole is left to answer for the outrageous treatment I recieved sure, but only the two Utah Conductors as individuals were out of line. It's Amtrak's responsibility to prevent people like this from harming passengers like these 2 harmed me.

I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!

Grill Master said:

Theres 2 sides to every story. Sounds like there might be 4 or 5 sides to this story.

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Yeah....and my side was never even heard until now. They didn't WANT to hear my side. They wanted to name me as the source of their problems....one guy. An easy mindset, mob mentality, and this was very much a witch hunt. In their minds if they made it all my fault, when they got rid of me all of their problems should have gone with me.

I was in seemingly good standing with everyone on board before the two Utah Conductors weren't able to see past their own prejudices. I'm thinking that maybe while I slept I might have passed some gas but still, their behavior was over the top.

TransAtlantic said:

I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!

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And legally how can they insist you not leave the train for whatever reason and with a ticket, get right back on? No company can make you stay within their jurisdiction. And it's none of their business what people do while off the train.

I was rolling with these expected inconveniences though. It was the way they handled the problem at the end that they failed miserably on. If I was as stinky as they claimed, then why didn't they offer me a shower? That certainly would have been a much more reasonable solution than to let so many people be disrupted and a bully who threatened to throw me down the stairs only gets rewarded for his thuggery? Crazy. So he'll go on to bully somebody else...why not? This behavior seems to pay off for him.Or why didn't they offer or suggest I move to the other coach car that was as empty as the one I was riding? Into the car where the people voiced support of my passenger status? By the time that solution occurred to me it was too late and it's the conductor's JOB to be familiar enough with train travel to come up with solutions like these and they didn't.

I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!

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Nor do they rent the rail from the frieght railroads, who should be obligated to schedule their frieghts around Amtrak

Lucifer said:

TransAtlantic said:

I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!

Click to expand...

And legally how can they insist you not leave the train for whatever reason and with a ticket, get right back on? No company can make you stay within their jurisdiction. And it's none of their business what people do while off the train.

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It's not a matter of legality, it's a matter of people not understanding that wandering away from the train will probably mean that they get left behind. And it does happen, despite the warnings from the crew. On my trip last June on the Coast Starlight, one passenger didn't obey that warning and walked into the station. Five minutes later I heard the station manager calling the train on my scanner and asking the conductor to find and secure that passenger's luggage, since his luggage was still on it's way to Seattle, even the the unfortunate passenger was no longer on his way to Seattle.

Grill Master said:

Nor do they rent the rail from the frieght railroads, who should be obligated to schedule their frieghts around Amtrak

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Well rent might be the wrong word, but Amtrak does nonetheless pay the freight companies for passage, and under the law Amtrak does have the right of both passage on the tracks and priority over freight. Now it can easily be argued that Amtrak doesn't pay enough for passage, but they do nonetheless pay for passage.

True, your right.

jccollins said:

You describe so many "issues"... yet you seem to be at the heart/the source of each of them. It sounds as if the crew treated you as humanely as possible given your condition on board the train.

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I was sound asleep when the trouble started. I'd gotten along well with everyone on board until then. I was even invited down to the bar car by the bartender! repeatedly! to practice sax after the first night of practice. I defended Amtrak through the smoking issues, the delays, the crazy guy with a missing toe, the problematic English Teacher who had to be comforted after the toe guy was hauled off. How am I the center of any of those issues? The people who seemed to have a grudge and acted on it were the guy and gal who were trying to cook up a story they could use to sue Amtrak because some "mystery passenger" had supposedly pushed past the girl hard enough to make her fall and scrape her elbow and I only voiced that they couldn't possibly expect to win a case against the railroad for the supposed rudeness of a non Amtrak employee. And the unfortunate Hispanic Family who seemed to assume I'd prompted the plainclothesmen to search them just because I'd spoken to the cops out of my own curiosity and had no clue that anyone was about to be searched. The crew INhumanely shook me out of a sound sleep and would not take any fair measures to solve the problem at hand. Even if the the small handful of people just didn't like me and signs of potential conflict were everywhere, why did they put me in a downstairs seat that was right there among the people who detested me with the only way in or out of the new seat was to walk past them? And I only left and came back twice and I wasn't challenging anyone but was being hassled and threatened! I was silent until I was confronted with threats of physical violence.

AlanB said:

Lucifer said:

TransAtlantic said:

I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!

Click to expand...

And legally how can they insist you not leave the train for whatever reason and with a ticket, get right back on? No company can make you stay within their jurisdiction. And it's none of their business what people do while off the train.

Click to expand...

It's not a matter of legality, it's a matter of people not understanding that wandering away from the train will probably mean that they get left behind. And it does happen, despite the warnings from the crew. On my trip last June on the Coast Starlight, one passenger didn't obey that warning and walked into the station. Five minutes later I heard the station manager calling the train on my scanner and asking the conductor to find and secure that passenger's luggage, since his luggage was still on it's way to Seattle, even the the unfortunate passenger was no longer on his way to Seattle.

Click to expand...

But when the train stops. People get off as it's their stop. Others are prevented from leaving to stretch or smoke or whatever. Isn't that being held against one's will? Listen, I stood up for the railroad to the other smokers on this issue....I do think they could handle it better though. Nonsmokers seem to want to "punish" smokers though when a solution that pleases everyone seems like a more logical goal for policy makers.

I was trying to illustrate that until getting put off the train, I was very supportive of Amtrak even considering the problems voiced by others that I was willing to put up with.

Grill Master said:

I'll just grab one thing that jumped out at me: "poorly planned smoking stops"....Amtrak is entirely nonsmoking, and as such, has NO obligation to provide smoking stops EVER!

Click to expand...

Nor do they rent the rail from the frieght railroads, who should be obligated to schedule their frieghts around Amtrak

Click to expand...

That's what the conductor outta Chicago told us as a group. She even described the Freight Train folks as Amtrak's landlords.

I might have a problem with someone playing a sax on the train. I'm sure it sounds nice, but it's not my thing.

Mike S. said:

Who the F plays a sax on the train? I'd be irritated if I had to listen to that. Two words "Checked Baggage"

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I play well, play softly,was willing to stop if anybody voiced even the slightest problem with it, the bartender going west kept inviting me to play, my playing seemed to bring in business to the bar car, and I got nothing but positive feeback about my music. So it seems you would have been the only person who'd have a problem with it. And I'll tell you who the F plays sax on the train. Good musicians! That's who. Good musicians who stick to a rigorous rehearsal schedule. Oh....and my sax is in the key of E flat, not F.

Wooooooooow!!!!! I'll say I've never heard of anything like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First about the crazy people: I've read many horror stories about lunatics- and it does seem that that guy was a mild case.

Second, I've never heard of being kicked off the train for body odor!!! Anyone who say takes a trip from LA to NYC and is on the train for 3 nights would naturally have body odor. They certainly couldn't arrest you for that, unless I've really missed something.

As for the person supposedly lying about harrassment...I really don't have anything to say but what suprisingly no one here has mentioned-talk to Amtrak. This is such an unusual situation that it is beyond just an email or simple phone call.

Lucifer said:

But when the train stops. People get off as it's their stop. Others are prevented from leaving to stretch or smoke or whatever. Isn't that being held against one's will? Listen, I stood up for the railroad to the other smokers on this issue....I do think they could handle it better though. Nonsmokers seem to want to "punish" smokers though when a solution that pleases everyone seems like a more logical goal for policy makers.I was trying to illustrate that until getting put off the train, I was very supportive of Amtrak even considering the problems voiced by others that I was willing to put up with.

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If you're flying on an airplane from say New York to Dallas, but your plane goes through Chicago, are you allowed to get off to smoke? I think not. Yes, other people get off because they wanted to go to Chicago. But unless you have to change planes, they aren't going to allow you to get off just to smoke.

Are you being held against your will? I'm not a lawyer so I can't say for sure, but I would tend to think that it could be reasonably argued that you agreed to those terms of transportation when you purchased your ticket.

And the other side of the coin is that this is being done in part for safety, in part because no passenger has the legal right to delay a train. In fact you can be arrested for doing so without a good reason. Should 250 other passengers have to be delayed just because 5 want to smoke? Additionally this also comes back around to protecting the passenger who does want to smoke. What do you think is going to happen if someone does get off to smoke and they weren't told not to do so, and the train then pulls out without them?

They are going to be mad. They are going to insist that Amtrak both compensate them and still get them to their destination. Whereas if they are told not to get off and do so of their own volition, then they have no one to blame when they get left behind.

Now, all that said, I a non-smoker still do wish that Amtrak had not changed its policy and removed the smoking penalty boxes (as they were called) from the lounge cars on the single level cars and from some of the coaches on the bi-level cars. Yes part of the reason that those rooms were removed was because of complaints by some non-smokers. However, the smokers themselves do share some of the blame for their removal too. Some smokers would prop the door open, since aparently they couldn't handle having the smoke around them after they exhaled. This of course then spread the smoke through the car. I know many attendants that would have to repeatedly remove things holding the door open.

Additionally I'm sad to say that some were pigs in that penalty box. That cost Amtrak extra money to have to keep cleaning the rooms, sometimes almost needing to hose the darn room down.

So unfortunately for smokers, because some couldn't follow the rules and play nice, the penalty boxes were removed from all the cars and Amtrak went non-smoking, with the exception of the Auto Train. Now smokers must wait for the appointed station stops that have enough time to permit people to get off the train. But when most stops are supposed to be under 2 to 3 minutes, by the time you get the people who are disembarking there off and those boarding on, it doesn't leave extra time for an anxious smoker to be jumping off and back on, as well as huffing and puffing for a minute.

On a train from, say, New York to Miami, there is a strong inference that you are expecting to get on at New York and get off at Miami, otherwise you would have bought a ticket to an intermediate destination. There will be some stops that are normally long enough in duration (crew changes and refueling) where you could probably expect to be able to get off and stretch your legs for a few minutes. At most other stops you can reasonably expect that if you get off the train you will have to make alternate arrangements to continue your journey, because the train will have departed that station without you. An admonishment not to get off or you will be left behind is not being kept against your will any more than a flight attendant who kept you from opening an emergency exit and walking off the airplane at 30,000 feet altitude would be keeping you against your will. The trains typically already are running late from freight interference, and they don't need the assistance, in running additionally late, that waiting for a passenger who was told not to get off at that station but got off anyway, would provide. As a fellow passenger, I would be ready, willing, and able to give such a passenger a piece of my mind (well, a very small piece, I can't afford to give away a large piece :lol: ), for being a sufficient jerk that he or she made the rest of us that much later than we already were, simply because of a substance addiction that they were unwilling to break. I don't care if he has AIDS or athlete's foot or three heads. That passenger's addiction cannot be allowed to affect the proper operation of the train and to further muck up the schedules of a hundred or so fellow passengers.

With all due respect, this is one of the most disjointed and rambling stories I have ever heard.

But let me summarize:

A sax-player with long hair, a beard and AIDS traveling with two heavy packs (but only one change of clothes) on a three-day Amtrak trip delayed by a nine-toed lunatic is tossed off in Provo by a Conductor with histrionic rantings about the accused made by some Latino children and a slip-and-fall expert then stiffs a cab driver for $65 for a 50-mile $110 cab ride.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, but I, too, would love to hear the REST of the story..................

AlanB said:

Lucifer said:

But when the train stops. People get off as it's their stop. Others are prevented from leaving to stretch or smoke or whatever. Isn't that being held against one's will? Listen, I stood up for the railroad to the other smokers on this issue....I do think they could handle it better though. Nonsmokers seem to want to "punish" smokers though when a solution that pleases everyone seems like a more logical goal for policy makers.

I was trying to illustrate that until getting put off the train, I was very supportive of Amtrak even considering the problems voiced by others that I was willing to put up with.

Click to expand...

If you're flying on an airplane from say New York to Dallas, but your plane goes through Chicago, are you allowed to get off to smoke? I think not. Yes, other people get off because they wanted to go to Chicago. But unless you have to change planes, they aren't going to allow you to get off just to smoke.

Are you being held against your will? I'm not a lawyer so I can't say for sure, but I would tend to think that it could be reasonably argued that you agreed to those terms of transportation when you purchased your ticket.

And the other side of the coin is that this is being done in part for safety, in part because no passenger has the legal right to delay a train. In fact you can be arrested for doing so without a good reason. Should 250 other passengers have to be delayed just because 5 want to smoke? Additionally this also comes back around to protecting the passenger who does want to smoke. What do you think is going to happen if someone does get off to smoke and they weren't told not to do so, and the train then pulls out without them?

They are going to be mad. They are going to insist that Amtrak both compensate them and still get them to their destination. Whereas if they are told not to get off and do so of their own volition, then they have no one to blame when they get left behind.

Now, all that said, I a non-smoker still do wish that Amtrak had not changed its policy and removed the smoking penalty boxes (as they were called) from the lounge cars on the single level cars and from some of the coaches on the bi-level cars. Yes part of the reason that those rooms were removed was because of complaints by some non-smokers. However, the smokers themselves do share some of the blame for their removal too. Some smokers would prop the door open, since aparently they couldn't handle having the smoke around them after they exhaled. This of course then spread the smoke through the car. I know many attendants that would have to repeatedly remove things holding the door open.

Additionally I'm sad to say that some were pigs in that penalty box. That cost Amtrak extra money to have to keep cleaning the rooms, sometimes almost needing to hose the darn room down.

So unfortunately for smokers, because some couldn't follow the rules and play nice, the penalty boxes were removed from all the cars and Amtrak went non-smoking, with the exception of the Auto Train. Now smokers must wait for the appointed station stops that have enough time to permit people to get off the train. But when most stops are supposed to be under 2 to 3 minutes, by the time you get the people who are disembarking there off and those boarding on, it doesn't leave extra time for an anxious smoker to be jumping off and back on, as well as huffing and puffing for a minute.

Click to expand...

No, I'm with you. I wasn't complaining about the the smoking situation ....much. Personally I did alright with the stops as they were. I objected to trying to make up time by cutting out some smoking stops. That barely happened though....but even once is too much when you're counting on it....and I know Amtrak reserves that right. With amtrak struggling to keep ridership up they could definitely try harder to accomodate the smokers and nonsmokers though.

AlanB said:

Lucifer said:

But when the train stops. People get off as it's their stop. Others are prevented from leaving to stretch or smoke or whatever. Isn't that being held against one's will? Listen, I stood up for the railroad to the other smokers on this issue....I do think they could handle it better though. Nonsmokers seem to want to "punish" smokers though when a solution that pleases everyone seems like a more logical goal for policy makers.

I was trying to illustrate that until getting put off the train, I was very supportive of Amtrak even considering the problems voiced by others that I was willing to put up with.

Click to expand...

If you're flying on an airplane from say New York to Dallas, but your plane goes through Chicago, are you allowed to get off to smoke? I think not. Yes, other people get off because they wanted to go to Chicago. But unless you have to change planes, they aren't going to allow you to get off just to smoke.

Are you being held against your will? I'm not a lawyer so I can't say for sure, but I would tend to think that it could be reasonably argued that you agreed to those terms of transportation when you purchased your ticket.

And the other side of the coin is that this is being done in part for safety, in part because no passenger has the legal right to delay a train. In fact you can be arrested for doing so without a good reason. Should 250 other passengers have to be delayed just because 5 want to smoke? Additionally this also comes back around to protecting the passenger who does want to smoke. What do you think is going to happen if someone does get off to smoke and they weren't told not to do so, and the train then pulls out without them?

They are going to be mad. They are going to insist that Amtrak both compensate them and still get them to their destination. Whereas if they are told not to get off and do so of their own volition, then they have no one to blame when they get left behind.

Now, all that said, I a non-smoker still do wish that Amtrak had not changed its policy and removed the smoking penalty boxes (as they were called) from the lounge cars on the single level cars and from some of the coaches on the bi-level cars. Yes part of the reason that those rooms were removed was because of complaints by some non-smokers. However, the smokers themselves do share some of the blame for their removal too. Some smokers would prop the door open, since aparently they couldn't handle having the smoke around them after they exhaled. This of course then spread the smoke through the car. I know many attendants that would have to repeatedly remove things holding the door open.

Additionally I'm sad to say that some were pigs in that penalty box. That cost Amtrak extra money to have to keep cleaning the rooms, sometimes almost needing to hose the darn room down.

So unfortunately for smokers, because some couldn't follow the rules and play nice, the penalty boxes were removed from all the cars and Amtrak went non-smoking, with the exception of the Auto Train. Now smokers must wait for the appointed station stops that have enough time to permit people to get off the train. But when most stops are supposed to be under 2 to 3 minutes, by the time you get the people who are disembarking there off and those boarding on, it doesn't leave extra time for an anxious smoker to be jumping off and back on, as well as huffing and puffing for a minute.

Click to expand...

And to answer your question about being on a flight that makes a stop to let passengers off then continue on with the remaining passengers....they frequently DO let the people off for a break when they do this.

AmtrakWPK said:

On a train from, say, New York to Miami, there is a strong inference that you are expecting to get on at New York and get off at Miami, otherwise you would have bought a ticket to an intermediate destination. There will be some stops that are normally long enough in duration (crew changes and refueling) where you could probably expect to be able to get off and stretch your legs for a few minutes. At most other stops you can reasonably expect that if you get off the train you will have to make alternate arrangements to continue your journey, because the train will have departed that station without you. An admonishment not to get off or you will be left behind is not being kept against your will any more than a flight attendant who kept you from opening an emergency exit and walking off the airplane at 30,000 feet altitude would be keeping you against your will. The trains typically already are running late from freight interference, and they don't need the assistance, in running additionally late, that waiting for a passenger who was told not to get off at that station but got off anyway, would provide. As a fellow passenger, I would be ready, willing, and able to give such a passenger a piece of my mind (well, a very small piece, I can't afford to give away a large piece :lol: ), for being a sufficient jerk that he or she made the rest of us that much later than we already were, simply because of a substance addiction that they were unwilling to break. I don't care if he has AIDS or athlete's foot or three heads. That passenger's addiction cannot be allowed to affect the proper operation of the train and to further muck up the schedules of a hundred or so fellow passengers.

Click to expand...

AGAIN! I personally did alright with the smoke stops being like they were but do think they could come up with something to satisfy both sides of the issue that are better than the present situation and that the only thing I object to is when they would cut smoking stops to make up time caused by freight delays.

daveyb99 said:

With all due respect, this is one of the most disjointed and rambling stories I have ever heard.
But let me summarize:

A sax-player with long hair, a beard and AIDS traveling with two heavy packs (but only one change of clothes) on a three-day Amtrak trip delayed by a nine-toed lunatic is tossed off in Provo by a Conductor with histrionic rantings about the accused made by some Latino children and a slip-and-fall expert then stiffs a cab driver for $65 for a 50-mile $110 cab ride.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, but I, too, would love to hear the REST of the story..................

Click to expand...

I too would like to hear the REST of the story because it made no sense to throw me off the train in Provo which is why I even posted here at all....looking for answers. I put in all the details hoping somebody could spot a logical reason so let ME summarize:

1. All was well between me, the other passengers, and the staff on board all the way from San Francisco to Trenton NJ despite others getting annoyed enough with the routine problems of rail travel.

2.Most of the trip back to San Francisco was fine and even smoother for me and again I was making friends and the staff and I got along fine or even great.

3.The only hint of trouble seemed to come when two undercover cops who I happened to be talking about the Denver skyline and weather with went and searched a non English speaking family's belongings and after this the family's attitude toward me changed. Then I possibly offended a guy and gal by commenting that their bogus plan to sue Amtrak probably wouldn't work.

4. I went to sleep just as two new conductors began their shift and they had next to NO interaction with me until I was harshly woken by one of the new conductors, Kris May, accompanied by two of the searched family's younger members who were pointing me out to this conductor.

5. Based on whatever the children were accusing me of, the conductor demanded I collect my things and move to a very undesirable seat in the same car but downstairs and the only people remaining in that car were the people who possibly didn't like me for reasons noted in #3 above. The conductor's harshness seemed way overblown for the reason I was given for being moved which was that I was being accused of being stinky but had changed my underwear and socks daily, washed both morning and evening, and only this conductor and the complainers during the entire trip had any problem with me.

6.Venturing twice from my new seat and back and having to pass my old seat and the complainers to do so, I was confronted with disdain and threats of physical violence to the point that I had to get a conductor's assistance and one of the complainers insisted himself on the other new conductor, would not even hear my account of being threatened and actually chased. This conductor had not any agreement from the on board staff members who'd already travelled thousands of miles with me and expressed that I had not been a problem for anybody. A much larger number of passengers than the complainers all voiced their support of me.

7. The new conductors, upon hearing the bogus accusations of the complainer who'd threatened to throw me down the stairs decided to put me off the train without even hearing a defense or my complaints over being threatened from me or to consider the support being offered me from other passengers and the staff members who'd travelled with me already for days. They'd called the Provo police who met us in Provo and they escorted me off the train thanking me for my cooperation and after determining I'd not broken any laws by interogating me and thoroughly searching both my person and belongings, became helpful by suggesting alternative travel arrangements home then called a cab for me and were quoted a fare of $48

to get me to the Salt Lake City airport.

8. The driver, seemingly not wanting to drive me anywhere, began changing the quoted fare up and up and up till I had to request he take me to the Provo police dept, something he's bound by law upon request to do but he instead drove me to the airport where I left him prematurely and with enough money to cover the initial quote as I scurried up a steep unstable embankment with my saxophone, my carry on bag, and the heavy bag I'd checked when I first started my trip home. An additional $333 was spent on airfare back to San Francisco.

9. The solution to satisfying the complainers and myself that the conductors came up with was obviously inadequate and better options would have been to move my seat to the next car up where the passengers all liked me and where I'd never have to walk near the complainers again