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Acela150

Protect Motor at Secaucus now?

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Not to disagree with the previous respondents, but at age 71, I DO know the sound of an idling diesel when I hear it!  Even through the window of a roomette.   If not that dual mode, maybe an NJT unit?

It is possible that on a rare occasion for some reason a diesel engine was running. However, one observation does not make a good basis for a general statement that they have their diesel engines running. I was merely stating what the general practice is, and one observation to the contrary does not change that. Indeed on rare occasions with special permission from higher up muckitty-muck, there have been cases when a diesel engine operated through or in Penn station with its prime mover on. But also be aware that a P32ACDM can sound surprisingly like its diesel engine is running when it is on e-mode with its diesel engine off.

 

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I might also be describing the area poorly. I seem to remember going through an area that I saw sky above the wire. But calling it an open area may have been confusing. I was just thinking as opposed to an enclosed area where clearly you normally wouldn't run a diesel.

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Actually, this December when they were running some Empire Service consists pull-pull with locos on both ends (if memory serves because of some issues with the Sunnyside loop), at least one of those consists actually had a P42 on one of the ends, which I actually saw was running while the train was at the platform. I guess there are certain rare cases where you will have a diesel loco running in NYP.

@jis So what exactly are the restrictions in diesel fumes in NYP? Just that they have to generally avoid them, but it’s ok every once in a while?

Edited by cpotisch
Added @Jis tag

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33 minutes ago, cpotisch said:

Actually, this December when they were running some Empire Service consists pull-pull with locos on both ends (if memory serves because of some issues with the Sunnyside loop), at least one of those consists actually had a P42 on one of the ends, which I actually saw was running while the train was at the platform. 

So I guess there are certain rare cases where you will have a diesel loco running in NYP.

Which was addressed already by Jis. ;) 

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I might also be describing the area poorly. I seem to remember going through an area that I saw sky above the wire. But calling it an open area may have been confusing. I was just thinking as opposed to an enclosed area where clearly you normally wouldn't run a diesel.

There was an open area until it was covered up when Amtrak sold the air rights to a builder who went ahead and built a building over what used to be the open area. It was between 9th and 10th Ave.

 

Thirdrail is much better informed to provide a more knowledgable answer to the procedures that must be followed before a diesel prime mover can be operated in Penn Station. There is no law preventing it but there are Amtrak regulations that regulate it.

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Could be that, I don't have clear memories of it. Most of my trips head for the Empire connection to go up the West side, I usually don't pay much attention at the beginning.

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Diesels actually run surprisingly often in NYP. P42s occasionally make it south of Albany, and they no longer use CP Empire to add the protect electric motor and drag the train in. Just last week I was on 281 which had engine 111 leading from NYP-ALB.

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On 1/31/2019 at 7:11 PM, cpotisch said:

Actually, this December when they were running some Empire Service consists pull-pull with locos on both ends (if memory serves because of some issues with the Sunnyside loop), at least one of those consists actually had a P42 on one of the ends, which I actually saw was running while the train was at the platform. I guess there are certain rare cases where you will have a diesel loco running in NYP.

@jis So what exactly are the restrictions in diesel fumes in NYP? Just that they have to generally avoid them, but it’s ok every once in a while?

 

On 1/31/2019 at 10:06 PM, jis said:

There was an open area until it was covered up when Amtrak sold the air rights to a builder who went ahead and built a building over what used to be the open area. It was between 9th and 10th Ave.

 

Thirdrail is much better informed to provide a more knowledgable answer to the procedures that must be followed before a diesel prime mover can be operated in Penn Station. There is no law preventing it but there are Amtrak regulations that regulate it.

There are a few misconceptions. Diesels have been allow in Penn Stations for years and years and years. Diesels not capable of drawing propulsion power from 3rd rail weren't allowed to HAUL passenger trains in passenger service, necessitating a tow.  You can couple up to a passenger train with a diesel and tow it without shutting down the prime mover. If passenger train is not in passenger service (or there is a freight move), you were always allowed to operate with a diesel.

So, they have always been allowed in Penn Station.

Now, there has been an increase in passengers trains being hauled by diesels independent of third rail due to upgrades in the ventilation systems. As long as the systems are operating, the dispatcher may authorize the train to operate on diesel without needing a tow.

 

On 1/30/2019 at 6:31 PM, cpotisch said:

Yep! In fact, I can’t even remember the last time there wasn’t a P32 hanging out in the corner while departing Penn. I am wondering though, isn’t Sunnyside only like five minutes from NYP? Why is it so necessary to have that protect there all the time?

 

On 1/30/2019 at 6:45 PM, Acela150 said:

It's simply the fact that if a train stalls or the engine calls it quits in the Empire Tunnel or on the Empire Connection a crew can climb on and go. If the unit was in Sunnyside it could be anywhere from say 15 minutes to an hour to get out of the yard and through the tunnels.  

If you take a good look at the until, it is pointed east (toward the station) as opposed to North (towards the Empire Connection). That P32 isn't there to protect locomotive issues in passenger service on the HUD line. The primary purpose for the engine is to protect the North River and Empire tunnels in case there is a catenary outage. They will use it to tow a disabled train. If necessary, they'll back it lite to rescue a train on the former Empire Connection.

On 1/29/2019 at 11:49 PM, Thirdrail7 said:

It has a crew and it isn't necessarily a new practice. Amtrak used to protect until they became crew and power short. Then, NJT started protecting at Hudson Yard during the week while Amtrak protected on the weekends .  Now,  NJTRO is short crews and power, so Amtrak is back to protecting the tunnels.

NJTRO has taken over the weekday protect service again. You won't see them during the week under normal circumstances.

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On 1/31/2019 at 1:08 AM, Acela150 said:

AFAIK that's incorrect. It's on Third Rail in Penn Station and the Empire Tunnel. These units are still loud even under Third Rail power. 

That seems to me like a bit of a waste of power. How long does it take to start up the prime mover?

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On 1/31/2019 at 1:08 AM, Acela150 said:

AFAIK that's incorrect. It's on Third Rail in Penn Station and the Empire Tunnel. These units are still loud even under Third Rail power. 

That seems to me like a bit of a waste of power. How long does it take to start up the prime mover?

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On 1/31/2019 at 1:08 AM, Acela150 said:

AFAIK that's incorrect. It's on Third Rail in Penn Station and the Empire Tunnel. These units are still loud even under Third Rail power. 

That seems to me like a bit of a waste of power. How long does it take to start up the prime mover?

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