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Should Regionals Fly Under Their Own Colors?

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Some majors used to have regional partners (maybe AA still does?) as wholly-owned subsidiaries. Still had separate labor agreements, separate workforces, separate operations teams, etc.

 

Horizon Air is a subsidiary of Alaska, but you cant take a flight attendant from one and staff the others plane.

 

Heck, up until this week, a United flight attendant that came from Continental couldnt work a plane that came from pre-merger United (or vice versa). So, being a subsidiary wouldnt help any.

 

AA owns 3 of the American Eagle carrier's: Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA. Delta owns Endeavor.

 

As for mainline flight attendants, legacy AA and legacy USAir only now (1 October), have achieved Flight Attendant Operational Integration into one system, and can bid on any flight or aircraft they are qualified on.

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I find when flying that the airlines are fairly transparent about the planes being operated by another company. For example on the PA, thank you for choosing Delta Connection or SKY partner.

 

It's always been on my itinerary and on the boarding pass. I've flown "Delta" multiple times on the SFO-SEA route, and it's always mentioned somewhere that it's Compass/Skywest "dba Delta Connection". This photo show it clearly on the boarding pass:

 

sea-san_delta_erj175_first_class_04-770x

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Gottaluvit; this morning, there is a text from United saying "we've swapped your seat". Instead of my booked 23A - aft of the wing good for flightseeing and all to myself on the ERJ-145, it is now 21D - limited flightseeing, and have to "play nice" to someone.

 

Thank you, Express Jet.

 

I'd upgrade to Econo-plus in a heartbeat if anything Left side forward was open. But it's not; or at least at this time.

 

The funny thing is they say they'd swapped aircraft. But it is just one 145 for another. So enquiring mind wonders why his seat needed to be changed?

 

I'm at a loss to know why any Mainline carrier allows their name to be downgraded to the level of these puddle-jumpers.

 

I admit I pay what I must to insulate myself on Mainline United from this crap by flying First or Business, and maybe it goes on there as well, but darned if I know and I guess darned if I care.

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While not an International Flight, the Full United 737 I flew on AUS-EWR for the Gathering ( I was able to choose an Exit Seat with More Room for $7) had a really great Flight and Cabin Crew,(Very Friendly and Great Service)and we even arrived 30 minutes early,plus had TSAPre, so all in it was the Best Flight I've had in several years.

 

I'm planning a Flight to London this Winter to ride Eurostar,the Night Train to Scotland and the High Speed French Trains, so we'll see how United or British does on this Route( British Airways is once again flying a 747,my favorite,

on this Route!😎)

 

I can't afford Biz Class so will be in Steerage but with the Really Cheap Fares being offered by Norweigan Air, Ill get a good Fare due to competition.

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Hey, the "code share scam" has proven to be fruitful at times. Me and Mrs. Blackwolf are currently in Nova Scotia due to a family emergency; 18 hours before departure for an international flight, a new booking is made. I look at Air Canada and see a round trip for two is $9k in Y (coach) class, no advance seat selection option, no included checked luggage. 4 legs, long layovers.

 

I log into my United MileagePlus account.

 

For 100k points (which I have) I can book last-minute J (business) round-trip tickets with lounge, seat selection, two checked bags at 70lbs per passenger, meals and libations.

 

The monetary breakdown is about $1400 based off the active point sale on United.

 

It pays to know the system. And realize 2/3rds of the flights are on Air Canada Jazz, which is the SkyWest of the Great White North.

Oh Code Shares work fine most of the time. It is just that each one is slightly different from the other in the details of who handles what, and also sometimes depending on the fare class and the interline agreement underlying the code share, it may not be possible to preselect seats on the code share partner airline's iron until 24 or 48 hours before departure, and such other minor irritants.

 

The most seamless codeshares I have been on are through the UA-LH JV though still with preselection of seats restrictions on some LH segments. The not so good is UA-9W, even though 9W surprisingly is able to issue boarding cards for UA segments upon checking in at any podunk airport in India where they have their own chackin terminals.

Edited by jis

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Gottaluvit; this morning, there is a text from United saying "we've swapped your seat". Instead of my booked 23A - aft of the wing good for flightseeing and all to myself on the ERJ-145, it is now 21D - limited flightseeing, and have to "play nice" to someone.

 

Thank you, Express Jet.

 

I'd upgrade to Econo-plus in a heartbeat if anything Left side forward was open. But it's not; or at least at this time.

 

The funny thing is they say they'd swapped aircraft. But it is just one 145 for another. So enquiring mind wonders why his seat needed to be changed?

 

I'm at a loss to know why any Mainline carrier allows their name to be downgraded to the level of these puddle-jumpers.

 

I admit I pay what I must to insulate myself on Mainline United from this crap by flying First or Business, and maybe it goes on there as well, but darned if I know and I guess darned if I care.

 

I believe "UA" has a 2 different configurations of their ERJ-145s, so chances are you got the other configuration.

 

peter

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Well, I was able to upgrade ($44) to Econo+ and got Seat 3D. I will still have to "play nice" with someone, and there is no underseat storage. But hopefully with the higher Boarding Group inherent to Econo+, I will have overhead space available.

 

I got my flightseeing back, and I'll keep looking to see if an A (single seat Left) opens up.

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Well, I was able to upgrade ($44) to Econo+ and got Seat 3D. I will still have to "play nice" with someone, and there is no underseat storage. But hopefully with the higher Boarding Group inherent to Econo+, I will have overhead space available.

 

I got my flightseeing back, and I'll keep looking to see if an A (single seat Left) opens up.

You’re right. Sitting silently next to someone on public transport is just the worst thing.

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While not an International Flight, the Full United 737 I flew on AUS-EWR for the Gathering ( I was able to choose an Exit Seat with More Room for $7) had a really great Flight and Cabin Crew,(Very Friendly and Great Service)and we even arrived 30 minutes early,plus had TSAPre, so all in it was the Best Flight I've had in several years.

 

I'm planning a Flight to London this Winter to ride Eurostar,the Night Train to Scotland and the High Speed French Trains, so we'll see how United or British does on this Route( British Airways is once again flying a 747,my favorite,

on this Route!)

 

I can't afford Biz Class so will be in Steerage but with the Really Cheap Fares being offered by Norweigan Air, Ill get a good Fare due to competition.

On the Norwegian leg I would buck up to premium economy if I were you. Recently they've been leasing a Hi-Fly ex Singapore A380-800 with the Singapore interior. So the premium economy guests are getting the former business class lie flats.

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Back in the day, the regionals, then called commuters, did fly under their own brand. SkyWest flew out of places like SLC to smaller towns. As Delta built up it's SLC hub, they started codesharing so passengers could make a seamless connection to St George or Elko. You knew that you were on Delta and then connecting to a SkyWest flight. Then came the regional jet to Comair out of CVG. The larger airlines actually wanted to fly these 50 seaters themselves to smaller markets, but the pilots didn't want the pay cut, so they were contracted out to the current commuter airlines. The 90's and early 00's saw an explosion in 50 seat regional jets. At first they continued to serve small markets, but when fuel started going up and the mainline jets like the 727's and older 737's the mainline carriers started putting the 50 seater on longer and longer flights and into bigger cities. It cost way less. Slowly things morphed into that mainline wanted even more seamless travel for their customers. You are now Delta Connection and nothing else. Thats what it has become now. Some regional airlines, when they lost contracts, tried to go at on their own. When Atlantic Coast Airlines lost their contract with Delta and United, they rebranded as Independence Air and tried to be on their own. I thought it was a good idea but they didn't last long. Neither did ExpressJet's branded flying. Now you are seeing much more comfortable large RJ's doing longer thin routes or trunk routes that require frequency. Comfort wise, I prefer the ERJ-170 to even some mainline planes. Large seats, big aisle, either a window or an aisle.

 

You're never going to see the mainline legacies require that their regional partners operate on their own brand. It's totally opposite of what they want and what is in the contract. I do agree that having multiple regionals doing the same route leads to inefficiencies. I remember being hours delayed in MSP because the flight was operated by Comair. MSP wasn't a Comair crew base even though it's a Delta hub.

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I think the mainline pilot's were very short-sighted in their resistance to operating the regional aircraft. They could have had a lot more flight's to work, albeit at a lower rate. So, they eventually lost those flight's to the regional airlines, and lost member's (along with their dues). So what did they gain?

 

At least on American, the pilot's on their wholly owned regional's enjoy "flow-through" opportunity onto their mainline carrier's, as they gain experience...

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At least on American, the pilot's on their wholly owned regional's enjoy "flow-through" opportunity onto their mainline carrier's, as they gain experience...

This goes back a few years - as in '08, where job security in the airline industry was a "not too much of".

 

At KDEN, waiting for and riding their tram with a young woman American FO; she shared that her days as a Flight Officer with American were numbered. I said "can you get on with Eagle?". "Not a chance, they have their own seniority list, they're whacking heads as well, and 'they just plain don't like us much'". "Where could you go to fly airplanes for a living?". "I could go over to Lithuania where several freight carriers would offer me Captain, but Dallas is my home, and I'll just wait it out waiting tables. I did it in college and I'll do it again." "Good luck, dear". "Nice talking with you".

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I'm certain the lady today is a Captain with American Airlines.

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I don't recall what things were like in "'08", but things look pretty promising today....there is an industry wide need for a whole lot of new pilot's ....

 

https://www.envoyair.com/pilots/

 

Especially the freight carriers.

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'08 was pretty bleak. American didn't hire a single pilot between 2001 and 2013 while the regionals exploded. It's different now. Pilot's are now being hired everywhere like mad. It's really unprecedented. Many regionals are having trouble filling training classes, but it is causing salaries to do go sharply up, and bonuses to be put on. The legacies are going to retire 2/3rd's of their pilot group in the next 10 years.

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Turns out, both flights were "good enough". Going to RIC, it took 40 min to take off, but the best surprise was this wonderful "fiftysomething" gal in 3B. She was joining up with two other college sorority sisters for a "girls weekend" somewhere along I-64 in WVA. She had a new carryon bag, but could not find her driver's license. Even though one of her compainions was renting the car, returning on an airplane without such "could be problematic". But after we both ordered "White" (forgettable French "vin ordinaire" - but for which the Attendant "comped" for Econo+), I suddenly felt something "slick" on the floor. "Dear, somehow the photo on this Missouri Driver's License looks a lot like this lady I have the pleasure to be sitting next to". Hugs.

 

For the return I had my single seat aft on the ERJ-145 - and my flightseeing. But now for the "reward" for an early landing - 25 minute hold in the Penalty Box for a gate.

 

All told, "more positives than negatives".

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Turns out, both flights were "good enough". Going to RIC, it took 40 min to take off, but the best surprise was this wonderful "fiftysomething" gal in 3B. She was joining up with two other college sorority sisters for a "girls weekend" somewhere along I-64 in WVA. She had a new carryon bag, but could not find her driver's license. Even though one of her compainions was renting the car, returning on an airplane without such "could be problematic". But after we both ordered "White" (forgettable French "vin ordinaire" - but for which the Attendant "comped" for Econo+), I suddenly felt something "slick" on the floor. "Dear, somehow the photo on this Missouri Driver's License looks a lot like this lady I have the pleasure to be sitting next to". Hugs.

 

For the return I had my single seat aft on the ERJ-145 - and my flightseeing. But now for the "reward" for an early landing - 25 minute hold in the Penalty Box for a gate.

 

All told, "more positives than negatives".

I’m glad you survived. Pity about the libations. Sitting next to someone on a plane is hard enough, but drinking complimentary mediocre wine in close quarters, oh my…

Then again, where would that Missourian be now were it not for your seating mix-up? Divine providence may have been at play here.

Edited by Pere Flyer

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Turns out, both flights were "good enough". Going to RIC, it took 40 min to take off, but the best surprise was this wonderful "fiftysomething" gal in 3B. She was joining up with two other college sorority sisters for a "girls weekend" somewhere along I-64 in WVA. She had a new carryon bag, but could not find her driver's license. Even though one of her compainions was renting the car, returning on an airplane without such "could be problematic". But after we both ordered "White" (forgettable French "vin ordinaire" - but for which the Attendant "comped" for Econo+), I suddenly felt something "slick" on the floor. "Dear, somehow the photo on this Missouri Driver's License looks a lot like this lady I have the pleasure to be sitting next to". Hugs.

 

For the return I had my single seat aft on the ERJ-145 - and my flightseeing. But now for the "reward" for an early landing - 25 minute hold in the Penalty Box for a gate.

 

All told, "more positives than negatives".

I’m glad you survived. Pity about the libations. Sitting next to someone on a plane is hard enough, but drinking complimentary mediocre wine in close quarters, oh my…

Then again, where would that Missourian be now were it not for your seating mix-up? Divine providence may have been at play here.

No kidding. :giggle:

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.

Pity about the libations. Sitting next to someone on a plane is hard enough, but drinking complimentary mediocre wine in close quarters, oh my

Off to Atlanta for weekend Oct 20 with an en route stop in Nashville. My "traveling companion" will be Gustav (I have new recordings of his 2nd and 10th), and

whoever SXM Ch 76 decides I get.

 

Of course, no en route libations.

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My feeling is that unless the carrier you book with takes full and complete responsibility for dealing with anything (whether a complaint, delay, lawsuit, etc) whether they, in fact, pay the cost of the issue themselves or collect it from the responsible third party, the customer should be told in the advertising, in the on-line selection, on the ticket, on the boarding pass and everywhere else, that they are booked on and must deal with the other airline or third party for any complaints. Doesn't matter whether it is code-share, "partner", subsidiary, or someone with the permission to use logo and paint.

 

One should not have to deal with third parties, basically, unless it is completely transparent up front.

 

It should be more like insurance subrogation. Your insurance company determines resolution (and can be disputed) and they in turn take it up with the other party's insurer. That second airline screws up? Let the carrier you booked with compensate you and they try and collect from the other company.

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My feeling is that unless the carrier you book with takes full and complete responsibility for dealing with anything (whether a complaint, delay, lawsuit, etc) whether they, in fact, pay the cost of the issue themselves or collect it from the responsible third party, the customer should be told in the advertising, in the on-line selection, on the ticket, on the boarding pass and everywhere else, that they are booked on and must deal with the other airline or third party for any complaints. Doesn't matter whether it is code-share, "partner", subsidiary, or someone with the permission to use logo and paint.

 

One should not have to deal with third parties, basically, unless it is completely transparent up front.

 

It should be more like insurance subrogation. Your insurance company determines resolution (and can be disputed) and they in turn take it up with the other party's insurer. That second airline screws up? Let the carrier you booked with compensate you and they try and collect from the other company.

I tend to agree with you on this, but I'm sure that the "fine legal mind's" in the booking carrier's law department makes sure that there is plenty of fine print and disclaimer's in the passage contract to avoid that...

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It should be more like insurance subrogation. Your insurance company determines resolution (and can be disputed) and they in turn take it up with the other party's insurer. That second airline screws up? Let the carrier you booked with compensate you and they try and collect from the other company.

From Holiday Inn Express Antioch TN (route of The Georgian right behind the hotel)

 

I'm certain the existing language on your ticket to fly a regional co branded with a major, as well as the insurance required, covers the major from legal liability. For example, I don't know which major Colgan Air was flying for, but somehow I think that the combination of legal language as well as insurance required by the major protected them.

 

Now regarding the Republic 2017 incident at ORD, United wasn't legally on tap for anything as they did not do anything tortuous to the injured passenger, but the damage to their image and reputation was, let us say, "priceless".

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When you hire a contractor and provide them access to services and facilities and sell their services jointly, and they perform work on your behalf, it is extremely difficult to avoid some degree of liability. If you look at the most recent large cases Comair/US air Colgan/Pinnacle/Continental the mainline carrier shared liability. What you do as a defensive move, when you use contractors, is require large insurance policies with carefully written provisions. Joint and several liability applies in many jurisdictions, even a finding of a few percent of the liability could be devastating if the primarily responsible party did not have the means to pay a judgement. since the party with deep pockets would be on the hook. As soon as the federal courts decided the case would be heard using NY Law, and not VA law, the impetus to settle became greater, NY law does not cap punitive damages, VA does.

Edited by PVD

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These puddle jumpers, now Skywest, are just going to be the "death" of United:

 

https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2018/10/22/united-turned-a-flight-around-mid-air-due-to-lack-of-ground-equipment

 

Once again, fly under their own colors; they can take the blowback from their own SNAFUed flight operations.

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