The Floridian and the AutoTrain

The year was 1977 and the AutoTrain company business was booming. Dr Eugene Garfield, the AT CEO decided that a midwesten route for the AutoTrain would be the next logical step in the companies expansion plans. Passenger traffic on the Lorton to Sanford run was exploding and it was time to grow the business. By this time Amtrak was well on its way to becoming the exclusive US passenger rail carrier and the AT company made a proposal to have the Floridian carry the AutoTrain from Louisville KY to Sanford Fl. The Floridain route originated in Chicago and headed South through Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, Birminghan, through southern Georgia to Jacksonville and then want on the current AT route to Sanford.

This new AutoTrain proposal proved a disaster for both the Floridian and the AutoTrain Corporation. After only 8 months of operation the AT midwest route was abandoned. Shortly thereafter the AutoTrain Corporation declared bankruptsy and within two years the Floridan was also gone.

So why did this all happen?

First off the AutoTrain Corporation made arrangements for Amtrak to carry it. As a result Amtrak stopped running the Floridian into downtown Louisville Union station and instead diverted through a large frieght yard outside of town to pick up the AT consist. It posed problems and Amtrak lost ridership from Lousiville because of this. Secondly the switching operations now posed by the AutoTrain at Lousiville and Sanford added two hours to the already long schedule and made the Floridian perpetually late. Last of all the track conditions on the former L & N route had deteriorated to the point where a horrific derailment caused loss of much AutoTrains RR equipment. By the end of 1977 the AT midwest route was gone and Amtrak rerouted the Floridan through Atlanta as a final attempt to keep the route viable. The new route through caused more lack of ridership and eventually was abandoned. Within ayear of this AutoTrain corporation also ceased to exist.

The question remains as to whether the AT accomodation idea killed the Floridian or whether the reroute through Atlanta was the primary cause.

The Floridian had many problems. One of the worst was finding a way to get across Indiana It seems like every rail route across the state quickly fell into a state of disrepair during the 1970's. The Floridian was really a victim of the poor state of affairs in American railroading in the 1970's. It was always late, usually by hours, and reliability was one of the reasons it was on the Carter Cuts hit list. Even today, getting a train from Chicago to Indianapolis to Louisville would be a long, slow drag.

MikefromCrete said:

The Floridian had many problems. One of the worst was finding a way to get across Indiana It seems like every rail route across the state quickly fell into a state of disrepair during the 1970's. The Floridian was really a victim of the poor state of affairs in American railroading in the 1970's. It was always late, usually by hours, and reliability was one of the reasons it was on the Carter Cuts hit list. Even today, getting a train from Chicago to Indianapolis to Louisville would be a long, slow drag.

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The Cardinal goes through Indianapolis to Chicago right now so I believe that the difficult part for recreating the Floridian route would be from Louisville Southward to Birmingham. Its really a shame that the Floridian/South Wind was discontinued. At one time it was a busy route.

dlagrua said:

The year was 1977 and the AutoTrain company business was booming. Dr Eugene Garfield, the AT CEO decided that a midwesten route for the AutoTrain would be the next logical step in the companies expansion plans. Passenger traffic on the Lorton to Sanford run was exploding and it was time to grow the business. By this time Amtrak was well on its way to becoming the exclusive US passenger rail carrier and the AT company made a proposal to have the Floridian carry the AutoTrain from Louisville KY to Sanford Fl. The Floridain route originated in Chicago and headed South through Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, Birminghan, through southern Georgia to Jacksonville and then want on the current AT route to Sanford.

This new AutoTrain proposal proved a disaster for both the Floridian and the AutoTrain Corporation. After only 8 months of operation the AT midwest route was abandoned. Shortly thereafter the AutoTrain Corporation declared bankruptsy and within two years the Floridan was also gone.

So why did this all happen?

First off the AutoTrain Corporation made arrangements for Amtrak to carry it. As a result Amtrak stopped running the Floridian into downtown Louisville Union station and instead diverted through a large frieght yard outside of town to pick up the AT consist. It posed problems and Amtrak lost ridership from Lousiville because of this. Secondly the switching operations now posed by the AutoTrain at Lousiville and Sanford added two hours to the already long schedule and made the Floridian perpetually late. Last of all the track conditions on the former L & N route had deteriorated to the point where a horrific derailment caused loss of much AutoTrains RR equipment. By the end of 1977 the AT midwest route was gone and Amtrak rerouted the Floridan through Atlanta as a final attempt to keep the route viable. The new route through caused more lack of ridership and eventually was abandoned. Within ayear of this AutoTrain corporation also ceased to exist.

The question remains as to whether the AT accomodation idea killed the Floridian or whether the reroute through Atlanta was the primary cause.

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The Floridian never went through Atlanta. It may have been re routed on some isolated incident because of a freight wreck, but believe me, I live here, and I would know if it ever came through Atlanta as a scheduled train.

Bill: I gues that reroute through Atlanta was incorrect info. Here is the route as it existed. It wes a long 1600 mile route. Chicago

Illinois/Indiana border

118 miles (190 km) Lafayette

221 miles (356 km) Bloomington

Indiana/Kentucky border

330 miles (530 km) Louisville

438 miles (705 km) Bowling Green

Kentucky/Tennessee border

511 miles (822 km) Nashville

Tennessee/Alabama border

629 miles (1,012 km) Decatur

713 miles (1,147 km) Birmingham

810 miles (1,300 km) Montgomery

928 miles (1,493 km) Dothan

Alabama/Georgia border

1,020 miles (1,640 km) Thomasville

1,062 miles (1,709 km) Valdosta

1,122 miles (1,806 km) Waycross

Georgia/Florida border

1,193 miles (1,920 km) Jacksonville

1,303 miles (2,097 km) DeLand

1,319 miles (2,123 km) Sanford

1,336 miles (2,150 km) Winter Park

1,341 miles (2,158 km) Orlando

1,359 miles (2,187 km) Kissimmee

1,402 miles (2,256 km) Lakeland

1,433 miles (2,306 km) Tampa

1,456 miles (2,343 km) Clearwater

1,480 miles (2,380 km) St. Petersburg

1,251 miles (2,013 km) Waldo

1,297 miles (2,087 km) Ocala

1,323 miles (2,129 km) Wildwood

1,388 miles (2,234 km) Winter Haven

1,429 miles (2,300 km) Sebring

1,531 miles (2,464 km) West Palm Beach

1,549 miles (2,493 km) Delray Beach

1,560 miles (2,510 km) Deerfield Beach

1,574 miles (2,533 km) Fort Lauderdale

1,581 miles (2,544 km) Hollywood

1,601 miles (2,577 km) Miami

After the Floridian died these was a Kentucy Cardinal; that restored servie to Lousiville but it lasted only 6 years. I don't have any info on this route but at present both Lousiville and Nasville do not have any trains serving the city. .

dlagrua said:

After the Floridian died these was a Kentucy Cardinal; that restored servie to Lousiville but it lasted only 6 years. I don't have any info on this route but at present both Lousiville and Nasville do not have any trains serving the city. .

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There was about a two decade gap between the end of the Floridian and the beginning of the Kentucky Cardinal, which operated as a Chicago-Louisville section of the Chicago-Washington-New York Cardinal. Between Indianapolis (where the Kentucky Cardinal split from the Cardinal) and Louisville, the Kentucky Cardinal operated on tracks (belonging to Louisville & Indiana Railroad, I believe) with a top speed limit of something like 30mph.

Eric S said:

dlagrua said:

After the Floridian died these was a Kentucy Cardinal; that restored service to Lousiville but it lasted only 6 years. I don't have any info on this route but at present both Lousiville and Nasville do not have any trains serving the city. .

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There was about a two decade gap between the end of the Floridian and the beginning of the Kentucky Cardinal, which operated as a Chicago-Louisville section of the Chicago-Washington-New York Cardinal. Between Indianapolis (where the Kentucky Cardinal split from the Cardinal) and Louisville, the Kentucky Cardinal operated on tracks (belonging to Louisville & Indiana Railroad, I believe) with a top speed limit of something like 30mph.

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The Kentucky Cardinal ran from 1998 to 2003. IMO it was an ill conceived plan to restore train service to Lousiville KY but you could only travel one way (North) toward Chicago. The only other connection might have been to the Cardinal at Indianpolis (if it ran that day).

dlagrua said:

Eric S said:

dlagrua said:

After the Floridian died these was a Kentucy Cardinal; that restored service to Lousiville but it lasted only 6 years. I don't have any info on this route but at present both Lousiville and Nasville do not have any trains serving the city. .

Click to expand...

There was about a two decade gap between the end of the Floridian and the beginning of the Kentucky Cardinal, which operated as a Chicago-Louisville section of the Chicago-Washington-New York Cardinal. Between Indianapolis (where the Kentucky Cardinal split from the Cardinal) and Louisville, the Kentucky Cardinal operated on tracks (belonging to Louisville & Indiana Railroad, I believe) with a top speed limit of something like 30mph.

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The Kentucky Cardinal ran from 1998 to 2003. IMO it was an ill conceived plan to restore train service to Lousiville KY but you could only travel one way (North) toward Chicago. The only other connection might have been to the Cardinal at Indianpolis (if it ran that day).

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The K-Card wasn't really intended to restore train service to Louisville; that was more the excuse/after thought. The K-Card was started to pick up what Amtrak under George Warrington figured would be a lucrative Express Trak freight contract.

Yes, rail advocates loved the idea and were already making plans to extend the train south of Louisville. But again, the main reason that train started running was for the freight contract.

One good thing that did come out of it however was the Hoosier State. While it would be far more successful if there were two daily roundtrips on a better schedule, the Hoosier did not exist pre-Kentucky Cardinal. When the K-Card got cancelled, the Hoosier was born. Of course, part of the reason for the Hoosier is to play hospital train hauling cars to/from Beech Grove. But still, it is doing some halfway decent passenger service (33,000) considering the poor calling times in Indianapolis.

AlanB said:

One good thing that did come out of it however was the Hoosier State. While it would be far more successful if there were two daily roundtrips on a better schedule, the Hoosier did not exist pre-Kentucky Cardinal. When the K-Card got cancelled, the Hoosier was born. Of course, part of the reason for the Hoosier is to play hospital train hauling cars to/from Beech Grove. But still, it is doing some halfway decent passenger service (33,000) considering the poor calling times in Indianapolis.

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Actually, the Hoosier State did exist as a separate train (with a different schedule than the Cardinal) until the big service cuts in the 1990s (maybe 1995?), when it was eliminated altogether. Then, as you mention, it was reinstated after the whole Kentucky Cardinal thing. For instance: the Fall 1993 timetable shows Train 317 departing IND daily at 10:55am, arriving CHI 2:25pm (about 3 hours after the Cardinal); and Train 318 departing CHI 5:50pm, arriving IND 11:20pm (about 2 hours before the Cardinal).

dlagrua said:

Bill: I gues that reroute through Atlanta was incorrect info. Here is the route as it existed. It wes a long 1600 mile route. Chicago

Illinois/Indiana border

118 miles (190 km) Lafayette

221 miles (356 km) Bloomington

Indiana/Kentucky border

330 miles (530 km) Louisville

438 miles (705 km) Bowling Green

Kentucky/Tennessee border

511 miles (822 km) Nashville

Tennessee/Alabama border

629 miles (1,012 km) Decatur

713 miles (1,147 km) Birmingham

810 miles (1,300 km) Montgomery

928 miles (1,493 km) Dothan

Alabama/Georgia border

1,020 miles (1,640 km) Thomasville

1,062 miles (1,709 km) Valdosta

1,122 miles (1,806 km) Waycross

Georgia/Florida border

1,193 miles (1,920 km) Jacksonville

1,303 miles (2,097 km) DeLand

1,319 miles (2,123 km) Sanford

1,336 miles (2,150 km) Winter Park

1,341 miles (2,158 km) Orlando

1,359 miles (2,187 km) Kissimmee

1,402 miles (2,256 km) Lakeland

1,433 miles (2,306 km) Tampa

1,456 miles (2,343 km) Clearwater

1,480 miles (2,380 km) St. Petersburg

1,251 miles (2,013 km) Waldo

1,297 miles (2,087 km) Ocala

1,323 miles (2,129 km) Wildwood

1,388 miles (2,234 km) Winter Haven

1,429 miles (2,300 km) Sebring

1,531 miles (2,464 km) West Palm Beach

1,549 miles (2,493 km) Delray Beach

1,560 miles (2,510 km) Deerfield Beach

1,574 miles (2,533 km) Fort Lauderdale

1,581 miles (2,544 km) Hollywood

1,601 miles (2,577 km) Miami

After the Floridian died these was a Kentucy Cardinal; that restored servie to Lousiville but it lasted only 6 years. I don't have any info on this route but at present both Lousiville and Nasville do not have any trains serving the city. .

Click to expand...

I rode the South Wind/Floridian many times between 1965 under PRR/L&N/ACL/FEC and Amtrak. During the Amtrak era, I was a frequent rider. I can tell you that combining the Floridian with Auto train had nothing to do with the demise of the Floridian. Auto Train from South Louisville to Sanford ran as a seperate train for sometime. Passenger loads of the Floridian were decreasing due to unreliable schedules that started in 1972 before Autotrain and continued until the end. Trains were often tardy by as much as 12 hours. The northbound arrival into Chicago was sometimes between 2-3AM after all connections had left, most Amtrak employees had gone home and arriving passengers were left to their own devices. When Autotrain and the Floridian were combined it was a last ditch effort to save two dying trains. It didn't work.

I made my last trip on the Floridian northbound from Nashville to Chicago in the summer of 1979 in the sleeping car which was about half full. It still had a full diner and a lounge car. It was scheduled to leave Nashville about 5PM and arrive in Chicago at 7AM. We left Nashville on time and arrived in Chicago around 8:30AM. I miss the Floridian but most passengers didn't care for the frequently late schedules and very rough track through Indiana.

As A former Auto Train employee at Louisville I can shed some light on this. Amtrak moved from Louisville Union Station because it was planning to be sold by the Louisville and Nashville Railroad and to eliminate the back in back out move to the Kand I T Terminal Railway tracks used to get to the Monon. The Amtrak mindset at the time was to avoid back in back out moves.

On time time keeping was far better on the Monon, once it was established as the detour route for the Penn Central Delima both into Union and the Auto Train Terminal for Amtrak. The Louisville ridership suffered because the new station for Amtraks was beyond the bus lines of TARC the city transit service.

The Penn Central situation was very bad before the Indianapolis to Louisville segment was abandoned. Slow orders and delays were the orer of the day and while service always ran on time Northbound into Louisville it was delayed southbound into Louisville and North of Louisville to Indianapolis.

Untill the schedule was changed southbound trains arrived Louisville Union Station via the Monon ahead of schedule.

When the Auto Train Amtrak service started trains were operating with one U 36 B locomotive of Auto Train in the lead, floowed by two Amtrak SDP 40fs with the Miami Section first, followed by the St Pete section of Amtrak, it was followed by the Auto train passenger cars then the Auto Racks and a rack caboose car. Full crews were operated of five men on all divisons between Louisville and Montgomery over Louisville and Nashville tracks.

The SDP 40 fs soon were embargoed on the L&N following a derailment in Tennessee so a new consept was adopted. One Amtrak E unit would bring the train down from Chicago to Lousville it would be turned for the trip north. There Auto train operated two U 36 B locomotives and a heater car followed by the combined trains consits as mentioned above. It was a smooth process and the long trains were no real problem as only Bowling Green, Decatur, Birmingham, Dothan and Waycross were station stops not offered by the stand alone operations before 1076. Crew changes were required at Nashville , Montgomery, Thomasville and Jackspnville for both the solo Auto Train and the Stand alone Floridian.

dlagrua said:

The Cardinal goes through Indianapolis to Chicago right now so I believe that the difficult part for recreating the Floridian route would be from Louisville Southward to Birmingham. Its really a shame that the Floridian/South Wind was discontinued. At one time it was a busy route.

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The current Cardinal currently takes 8 hours and 32 minutes to go only 319 miles from Chicago to Cincinnati or an average speed of only 37.5mph. The Hoosier State takes over 5 hours to go less than 200 miles. I would think you need to fix this before you start trying to run a train all the way to Florida.

The Floridian never ran through Atlanta. It maintained the same route south of Louisville for the duration. The final day of operation was October 8th, 1979. It actually was listed as discontinued on October 1st but due to an order from a federal judge, it kept on till the 8th. It was truly a shame to see it head south that very last day. The next day the papers released a picture of an old engineer looking out the window as the Miami section arrived for the last time. It is hard to imagine that the route of so many passenger trains to Florida would not be served by any at all in the end.

The Floridian never did reroute although it was considered to save it but no implemented. The Auto Train was gone by 1977, not started. It started around 1974. I remember seeing it running separately from the Floridian at first. It was later combined by 1977 and then gone soon after.

Poor track, especially in Indiana, is what did in the Flordian. Penn Central was falling apart, literally.

After discontinuance of the AT, the Floridian eventually operated with an F40/E8 combo and ran reliably south of Louisville. The train needed time to reestablish patronage from the very difficult period of the mid 1970s. Unfortunately the Carter administration was not in the mood to grant any time. A Floridian reequipped with HEP would probably have recovered, and the train might still be running today.

The plan was to use Superliners on the Floridian. Some Superliner coaches that rolled off the production line early were demonstrated on the Floridian. I think Trains Magazine had picture /pictures of Superliners operating in Florida. If the tracks in Indiana could have been rehabbed to a reliable 9 hours from Chicago to Louisville and Superliners implemented, the train may have gained back passengers lost in the early 1970s.

prior to the Auto Train starting its solo service to Louisville. I recall three Auto Track carriers at Louisville Union Station these cars were tacked on at Indianapolis for a trip south, they were pulled at Louisville because of the autos being dan\maged comming down the Penn Central. The final blow was the series of derailments on Penn Central the one at Seymour In was at 19 mph which lead to the FRA embargo of all Penn Central route, The Move to the Monon was a vast improvement it improved on time at Louisville

The abandonment of Union Station was a disaster Amtrak could have easily simply pulled through the Auto train terminal and coupled on. On many ocasions the L&N Passenger represenitive Bill Vaught would get on the train at DI tower in New Albany and passengers were discharged where the train went to K&I tracks near downtown. The Monon crews were much better than those of Penn Central in the manner they treated passengers as well. Gibb Young, Russell Cox , Burt and Ross Driscoll all great people

Other L&N crew were DL Abbey Tatum, Eddie Driscoll, DJ Lashlee, Larry Mc Kneese and Kenny Mc Whurter. AA Riley and Tom Price on the Louisville Divison, further south you had Wallace Saab, and Mr Buster Wainwright on the SCL.

These gentlemen took great pride n their jobs often dealing with over sold trains, hot coaches, They did their best for all aboard and all of us who rode the Floridian, remeber these folks well another great fellow was Don Mendez Dining Car Steward he was an old Coast Line before Amtrak.

3 Year Old Topic..

So here's a question: what's the state of the various possible Chicago - Southeast routes today? I know the Floridian was dropped largely due to lack of any routes where the track was in good enough shape to run at passenger speeds. Is that still the case? I count approximately four north-south routes through Kentucky and Tennessee (three CSX and one NS), but I have no idea what track speeds are on any of them.

Part of the issue regarding ridership was the constant flipping of the Floridian's schedule. In the earliest Amtrak days it had a 2-day, 1-night schedule departing Chicago in the morning. As track conditions on the PC deteriorated and running time suffered, it was flipped to a 2-night schedule departing Chicago in the evening. When the joint operation with Auto-Train began, the schedule flipped back to the 2-day, 1-night pattern with a morning Chicago departure and a 6pm-ish Louisville departure. When the AT Louisville service was discontinued, Amtrak flipped the Floridian back to the 2-night schedule with an evening Chicago departure and a Louisville departure the next morning...... for the last year or two that the Floridian operated, Amtrak was the sole tenant of the Louisville Auto-Train station.

Please allow me to post some old photographs from my collection -

1) The southbound Floridian with SDP40 arriving at the Louisville Auto-Train Station - date uncertain



2) Shortly before the end...... Amtrak's Floridian with F40/E8 lashup await southbound departure from Louisville in August 1979.



3) Louisville Union Station sometime in the late 70's........ Amtrak has moved out, some track removal has taken place, TARC has not yet moved in.



4) And finally - the only photo I have of the combined Floridian/Auto-Train....... here it is southbound with AT power making the Amtrak station stop in DeLand, FL. I wish I had more and better photos BUT I was taking these shots when I was 14-16 years old. No car, no driver's license...... I was reliant on the kindness of family (which we had in the Louisville area) and friends (which we had in DeLand, FL) to get me to train stations. When I was there I would snap what I could get but usually my ride wouldn't want to wait around for trains running hours late or to watch the fascinating switching neccessary to combine the Floridian and AT in Louisville.........



5) Take that back - Here is a rare one....... I'll bet that I am the only person on AU who has an interior photograph of the Louisville Auto-Train Station cued up and ready. Here it is after AT quit and Amtrak was still (barely) there. This may have been on the same trip where I took the F40/E8 photo in August 1979. I was a kid and didn't have the sense to date my photos....... and as I played with them I re-arranged them by subject (ie - stations, steam excursions, passenger trains, freight trains, etc.) around in my carousels so they were not in any chronological order....

Special thanks b-t-w to AUer Tom Bedwell for his help in digitizing my collection of slides from the late 70's so that I could present this photographic essay!

Nice Pics and Memories David! Thanks for Posting them! :hi: And I think Tom and You have a Great Collection of Old, Long Gone and Truely Missed Train Pics! I Didn't use a Camera Back in the Day, so All I have are Memories So I Really Enjoy Seeing these!

Awesome pictures! Those are probably the best quality photos I've seen of the Floridian.

Here are a few more Floridian pictures - northbound in and near New Albany, IN taken while visiting relatives in December either 1977 or 78. I wish that on the third one I had waited another two seconds before hitting the shutter..... I might have wound up with one for the ages.

Notice gas is $.55 a gallon in the first picture? I remember when that was an exorbitant price!

Here is a Monon coming off that same bridge I took about 1957. Trains still use the bridge today.