Room Assignment and Bucket Pricing Mysteries

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I noticed the Auto Train increase yesterday and a quick spot check showed some others up about the same amount of around 1%. Without looking, I'd guess they all have gone up. This is the first increase I've noticed in well over a year. And I'm not going to redo my entire fare bucket chart for a measly 1% fare hike. Takes too much time with the original AmSnag down and the strain on the old eyes (eye, actually) is just too much for such a piddly increase.

I feel confident, however, this nitnoy increase will elicit a goodly number of posts with the customary whining and sniveling.
 
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In 'playing' with Amsnag today, watching only the Crescent NOL-NYP from January to October next year, I've noticed that the lowest bucket ($412) is nearly the entire month of Feb and Mar (with a couple of $508s thrown in for good measure), a small number of times in Jan, and almost non-existent in Apr. After that, the lowest fares are bucket 3 & 4 only...$603 and $704.

It would seem to show that fares 'way out' start at bucket 3, but nearer in, the prices drop depending on how many roomettes are booked. Looks like I'll be on the Crescent sometime in February, which one would expect would be filled with 'snow bunnies' from the north!

And yes, the $593 fare in April I had been watching has jumped to $603. NUTS! Perhaps it will go down sometime in Dec or Jan if it doesn't sell out.
 
And yes, the $593 fare in April I had been watching has jumped to $603. NUTS! Perhaps it will go down sometime in Dec or Jan if it doesn't sell out.
That old $593 fare was for 1 adult in a mid-bucket Roomette ($165 + $428 = $593). The new price of $603 is also for 1 adult in a mid-bucket Roomette ($171 + $432 = $603). The new fare at low bucket would be $412, so keep your fingers crossed and your eyes open!
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In this case, the increase in the low bucket Coach fare is 3.6%.
 
So now it is a little more than a month before my trip, and I have good deals on all segments.  The Bedroom I paid about $600 for on the Coast Starlight is now going for about $1200.  The Bedroom I had my price adjusted to $880 on the Texas Eagle is now going for $1877.  And a Roomette on the Empire Builder for which I paid about $400 is now going for over $600, but a Bedroom  and the Family Bedroom are still available on that train for less than $100 more than a Roomette. 

I'm still curious if there will be any "last minute deals," so I'm going to continue watching the fares.
 
Just in time for Amtrak's Roomette promotion, Roomettes on the Empire Builder Portland sleeper for my date of travel (at $882) are now more expensive than Bedrooms ($710, three available at that price) or the Family Bedroom ($669).  In the Seattle sleeper(s?), Roomettes are more expensive than a Family Bedroom, but not Bedrooms.
 
FYI, here's the latest fare bucket chart reflecting the slight increases noted in all fares:

3 Dec 2018 Fare Buckets.jpg

The average increases are 1.24% for low bucket Coach and 1.18% for mid bucket Roomette.  These are the first fare increases since mid-January 2017 which saw increases of 1.35% for low bucket Coach and 0.98% for mid bucket Roomette.
 
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That is not true. There is no specific price assigned to specific rooms. I’m sure the workings of the revenue management system has been explained here before, but basically, bucket availability is based on the number of rooms available. If a fare is available, any room can be sold at that fare, but the agent has to do it correctly.

...

While it’s possible they’ve made changes to the system in recent years, when I was using Arrow, there was no mechanism in place to tie a specific room to a specific fare before it was booked, That was always a myth invented by AU.
All of what Trogdor posted may well be true but it is obvious (to me at least) that Amtrak ticketing and space assignments works significantly different from how airline tickets and seat assignments work. With Amtrak, it appears that your ticket is for the specific space you have reserved and any change in the space requires a change to the ticket. With an airline, your ticket is for "a" seat on the airplane (in the appropriate cabin, of course) and the seat assignment process is separate (and I see this as a retired airline employee with a much more than average understanding of how airline reservations systems work). With an airline, what fare you paid and what your frequent flyer status is can determine which seats you are eligible to select in advance (if any) but once assigned a seat, you are free to change it if a more desirable seat opens up as it never affects your ticket. If you booked the lowest bucket and it's now sold out, you can still make seat assignment changes without any impact on your ticket.

I can only guess as to why but it would not surprise me if Amtrak does it they way it does based on historical practice ("that's how we've always done it" seems to be the reason for many things). In the old days (before computer reservation systems), one station, usually the originating station, controlled all the space on a train. Booking the space required your local agent to contact the controlling office to reserve the space which always allocated the specific space which was recorded on the ticket. But with airlines, historically seat assignments were made day of departure at the airport. Reservations were always for "a" seat, never a specific seat. Eventually, quite awhile after computer reservation systems were in place, a seat assignment module was added so that advance assignments could be made. At first, you needed to be ticketed before a seat could be assigned although now it can be done as part of the ticketing process. Even into the early 80s, seat assignments were a manual process with some airlines with assignments made at the gate of the flight's origin with manual pull-tabs off a master  seat chart which was stuck to your boarding pass (which in those days was usually hand-written on your ticket wallet). At downline stations of a multi-segment flight, it would usually be open seating.

In today's world, there is no reason Amtrak can't make ticketing be for "a" room (of the appropriate type) and have space assignments be independent of the ticket. Amtrak does have an issue airlines usually don't which is the multi-stop nature of trains and the room waste that can occur when one party books room A from AAA to BBB and another party books room B from BBB to CCC meaning neither is usable for the passenger wanting to go AAA to CCC. So while I can see Amtrak wanting to be able to control space assignments for short passengers, there is no good reason to restrict space changes for passengers going origin to destination.
 
All of what Trogdor posted may well be true but it is obvious (to me at least) that Amtrak ticketing and space assignments works significantly different from how airline tickets and seat assignments work. With Amtrak, it appears that your ticket is for the specific space you have reserved and any change in the space requires a change to the ticket. With an airline, your ticket is for "a" seat on the airplane (in the appropriate cabin, of course) and the seat assignment process is separate (and I see this as a retired airline employee with a much more than average understanding of how airline reservations systems work). With an airline, what fare you paid and what your frequent flyer status is can determine which seats you are eligible to select in advance (if any) but once assigned a seat, you are free to change it if a more desirable seat opens up as it never affects your ticket. If you booked the lowest bucket and it's now sold out, you can still make seat assignment changes without any impact on your ticket.

I can only guess as to why but it would not surprise me if Amtrak does it they way it does based on historical practice ("that's how we've always done it" seems to be the reason for many things). In the old days (before computer reservation systems), one station, usually the originating station, controlled all the space on a train. Booking the space required your local agent to contact the controlling office to reserve the space which always allocated the specific space which was recorded on the ticket. But with airlines, historically seat assignments were made day of departure at the airport. Reservations were always for "a" seat, never a specific seat. Eventually, quite awhile after computer reservation systems were in place, a seat assignment module was added so that advance assignments could be made. At first, you needed to be ticketed before a seat could be assigned although now it can be done as part of the ticketing process. Even into the early 80s, seat assignments were a manual process with some airlines with assignments made at the gate of the flight's origin with manual pull-tabs off a master  seat chart which was stuck to your boarding pass (which in those days was usually hand-written on your ticket wallet). At downline stations of a multi-segment flight, it would usually be open seating.

In today's world, there is no reason Amtrak can't make ticketing be for "a" room (of the appropriate type) and have space assignments be independent of the ticket. Amtrak does have an issue airlines usually don't which is the multi-stop nature of trains and the room waste that can occur when one party books room A from AAA to BBB and another party books room B from BBB to CCC meaning neither is usable for the passenger wanting to go AAA to CCC. So while I can see Amtrak wanting to be able to control space assignments for short passengers, there is no good reason to restrict space changes for passengers going origin to destination.
This is incorrect. Amtrak policy says that you don’t have to pay anything to change your room. It’s just that many agents get the most basic stuff wrong and try to charge people nonexistent fees. If that happens to you, just call back and try for a different agent who does know the system.
 
This is incorrect. Amtrak policy says that you don’t have to pay anything to change your room. It’s just that many agents get the most basic stuff wrong and try to charge people nonexistent fees. If that happens to you, just call back and try for a different agent who does know the system.
It may be policy that it's not supposed to cost anything to change but because, based on the empirical evidence, changing rooms forces a ticket reissue, apparently a lot of agents don't know how to do it. With airline systems, changing seats is a non-issue because it never touches your ticket since the assigned seat is not part of the ticket.
 
It may be policy that it's not supposed to cost anything to change but because, based on the empirical evidence, changing rooms forces a ticket reissue, apparently a lot of agents don't know how to do it. With airline systems, changing seats is a non-issue because it never touches your ticket since the assigned seat is not part of the ticket.
Well Amtrak has the room number listed on the ticket (which I don't have any problem with), so how could they not send you a new ticket if that changes? They don't change the reservation number or anything like that, so I just don't see the problem with that system. I do have a big problem with the fact that so many Amtrak agents have such difficulty performing reasonably basic tasks, but the system itself seems perfectly fair.
 
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Until recently that link would have gotten you an "Under construction" page because the part that sends email alerts had been generating spam. I lost interest in Amtrak so I never tried to track down the cause.  I merely took it down.

I now find I want to track a couple of itineraries so I came up with a way to generate email alerts using Windows' task scheduler, rather than cron jobs on the web hosting service.  For that reason the fare watch program is back online, but doesn't itself send emails.

If you are interested in further details, please PM me..
 
Well Amtrak has the room number listed on the ticket (which I don't have any problem with), so how could they not send you a new ticket if that changes? They don't change the reservation number or anything like that, so I just don't see the problem with that system. I do have a big problem with the fact that so many Amtrak agents have such difficulty performing reasonably basic tasks, but the system itself seems perfectly fair.
Given that all Amtrak tickets are e-(for electronic) tickets, you never see a ticket these days. What you're seeing is printed evidence of an e-ticket but not the actual ticket itself. But in the days of paper tickets, tickets had lots of things on them that were not part of the legal ticket.

But to understand what I mean by "legal ticket", you need to understand that historically (and still today for airlines), a ticket was a negotiable instrument much like financial negotiable instruments such as a check. Any time one carrier issues a ticket for use on another carrier, there has to be a way for the transporting carrier to be paid by the issuing carrier. And that way was for the transporting carrier to submit the ticket to the issuing carrier for payment just like how banks clear checks. For instance, back in the day, let's say you took the Broadway Limited and then the Super Chief from New York to Los Angeles. You could purchase your ticket for the entire trip from the PRR in New York. PRR held all the money but then when you were on the Super Chief, the ATSF conductor collected the ticket for transportation on his train. He turned it in at the end of the run and eventually the ticket made it to Santa Fe's settlement office which submitted it to PRR for payment. Collecting and protecting tickets was as important as collecting and protecting cash as foreign tickets were a cash equivalent to the railroad. Even a single train that operated on multiple railroads (such as a NY to Florida train or any Chicago to West Coast train except on the Santa Fe would have separate tickets for each railroad (that was one of the reasons behind SF's "Santa Fe All the Way" marketing slogan). 

When you travel, you need a ticket and if the train or plane requires reserved space, a reservation. They are separate things but since tickets frequently reference reservation information, people get confused. A ticket can be unrestricted (good on any train or plane until the ticket's expiration date) or have restrictions such as not valid before/after, not valid on certain days of the week, or be restricted to a particular train/flight and date. The latter is usually true of any sort of discounted (anything lower than the top price bucket) ticket. As I said above, the ticket might have additional information on it that is not officially part of the ticket. For instance, let's go back 30 years and say I make a reservation and buy a ticket to fly from NYC to Chicago. Since I know my plans might change, I buy an unrestricted ticket (good on any flight on any airline). None the less, the printed ticket most likely showed the reservation information that existed at the time of ticketing. But at the airport, that meant nothing since the reservation might have been changed in the interim. Checking in for the flight, they'd check to see if I still had a reservation. If I needed to make a change, they'd change the reservation but there was no need to do anything to the ticket because even though it had "for information only" reservation data on it, the ticket itself was good on any flight on any airline between those two cities until its expiration date.

Which brings us to Amtrak today. Above, I said a ticket can be restricted to a particular date and train. But based on the empirical evidence, Amtrak restricts tickets to a particular date, train and space. Hence the hoops to be jumped through to change space and too many Amtrak CSRs saying the new room is more expensive since making the change violated the ticket restriction and hence a ticket reissue or revalidation is required. I may be wrong but I really can't think of any other good reason why CSRs would claim a different room costs more unless the ticket is restricted to the specific space being held.

One last thing regarding reservation numbers (officially known as PNRs in the industry for Passenger Name Record). It's best they don't change when you make a change since that then keeps the history all in one place. A PNR documents a reservation and should have a reference to the ticket being used to travel on that reservation (but not required - back in the day, at least on an airline, a passenger holding an open unrestricted ticket could make a reservation and leave it unticketed and then present that paper unrestricted ticket he was holding at check-in) but it is not hard-tied to a particular ticket, pair of cities, or even passenger - it's just a record with a history of every change made to it.
 
I see what you're saying, but the fact remains that if you call and change rooms, your reservation number still stays the same. Yes, you sometimes have to jump through hoops or have to find a different agent to make the change and not pay a premium, but the reservation number and info stays the same.
 
I see what you're saying, but the fact remains that if you call and change rooms, your reservation number still stays the same. Yes, you sometimes have to jump through hoops or have to find a different agent to make the change and not pay a premium, but the reservation number and info stays the same.
I'm not sure you really got what I was trying to say. A reservation number is not the same thing as a ticket number. It's basically the same thing as a file name on your computer. You can keep changing the information in it.

I did a trip a few years ago where I first booked a roomette, then upgraded to a bedroom. The reservation number did not change but since there was additional due, a new ticket was required  - probably does as an exchange of the original to the new ticket plus the additional amount collected. My emails from Amtrak that I still have confirm that as both list the ticket number in the Purchase or Change Summary section and the number has changed (it would be interesting if someone who is able to get Amtrak to do a room change to see if the ticket number changes). Interestingly, while the ticket numbers are the same 13 digit format used by airlines, the first three numbers, which are airline number on airline tickets (e.g. 001 = American Airlines, 016 = United Airlines), changed. The first was 195 and the second 250, both assigned for airline tickets to carriers in Europe (at least at one time, Amtrak was a member of ARC, the airline ticket clearinghouse so that travel agents could issue Amtrak tickets on airline ticket stock - probably no longer needed in today's e-ticket world).
 
I just checked, and when I moved Bedrooms on the Coast Starlight, I was issued a new ticket number (but the reservation number stayed the same).
There we go - if not proof, strong evidence that Amtrak sleeper tickets are for the specific space on the train, not just "a" space (of the appropriate type) on the train. An unnecessary complication of Amtrak's ticketing system. For an airline, changing an advance seat assignment is not going to cause a new ticket to be issued.
 
The pre-assignment / pre-selection of accommodations on Amtrak is problematic because it prevents blocking rooms for greatest availability.  Say, for example, five people each want to book one of five consecutive segments on a train with one Superliner sleeper in Bedrooms..  They could possibly all be booked in the same Bedroom (if the SCA is really quick!), leaving four more Bedrooms free for others.  But it is also possible that these five people could each be assigned a different Bedroom, leaving no Bedrooms available for someone to travel the whole route.
 
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I think I've expressed the opinion on this front before (and I'd express the same opinion in re seat assignments) that Amtrak should "sit on" room assignments until some time before the start of travel and then have an algorighm "tetris" reservations in so as to preserve availability as much as possible.
 
I think I've expressed the opinion on this front before (and I'd express the same opinion in re seat assignments) that Amtrak should "sit on" room assignments until some time before the start of travel and then have an algorighm "tetris" reservations in so as to preserve availability as much as possible.
The most efficient way to do things would be to not allow advance assignment other than from the train's origin (and any boarding only stations at the beginning of the trip). If nothing can be reserved downline, then you are assured that any vacant room you place a boarding passenger in is available all the way to the passenger's destination. This avoids the dreaded issue where Amtrak shows a room available but when you go to ticket it, it fails because it's not the same room the whole way.

Think about how most hotels work. You don't get to pre-select your room. You're given an appropriate room that's available at time of check-in and it's yours until check-out date. Imagine the nightmare if hotels advance assigned rooms and you then showed up with your three-night reservation only to find no room available all three nights and be told you'll be in room 123 tonight, then tomorrow you move to room 234, and then the next day you move to room 345.

Downside of this is a multi-room group boarding downline is not guaranteed being able to have rooms near each other - could even end up in different cars. But you have that situation in a hotel and somehow people have survived. You would probably also need to do something like make Superliner lower-level roomettes a separate class of room to assure availability of them for those who need them. While having to direct passengers to a different sleeper when the cars are adjacent is probably not a deal-breaker, having to direct a passenger from a rear sleeper to a head-end transition sleeper might be. Solutions could be something like a text message with your room assignment as soon as it's made (which should be no later than when the train leaves the immediately upline station).
 
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The pre-assignment / pre-selection of accommodations on Amtrak is problematic because it prevents blocking rooms for greatest availability.  Say, for example, five people each want to book one of five consecutive segments on a train with one Superliner sleeper in Bedrooms..  They could possibly all be booked in the same Bedroom (if the SCA is really quick!), leaving four more Bedrooms free for others.  But it is also possible that these five people could each be assigned a different Bedroom, leaving no Bedrooms available for someone to travel the whole route.
We were actually planning on taking the Star down to Florida this year (instead of the Meteor) because Arrow said that there was a low bucket Roomette available the whole way, however when we actually tried to book it, it gave us an error that “there is no through space available”. We then called USA-RAIL and were told that we would have to change rooms twice in the middle of the night. Needless to say, we didn’t do it. But it is interesting that the reservation system is apparently okay with listing a room as available, only for it to give an error that makes it impossible to book online.
 
The most efficient way to do things would be to not allow advance assignment other than from the train's origin (and any boarding only stations at the beginning of the trip. If nothing can be reserved downline, then you are assured that any vacant room you place a boarding passenger in is available all the way to the passenger's destination. This avoids the dreaded issue where Amtrak shows a room available but when you go to ticket it, it fails because it's not the same room the whole way.

Think about how most hotels work. You don't get to pre-select your room. You're given an appropriate room that's available at time of check-in and it's yours until check-out date. Imagine the nightmare if hotels advance assigned rooms and you then showed up with your three-night reservation only to find no room available all three nights and be told you'll be in room 123 tonight, then tomorrow you move to room 234, and then the next day you move to room 345.

Downside of this is a multi-room group boarding downline is not guaranteed being able to have rooms near each other - could even end up in different cars. But you have that situation in a hotel and somehow people have survived. You would probably also need to do something like make Superliner lower-level roomettes a separate class of room to assure availability of them for those who need them. While having to direct passengers to a different sleeper when the cars are adjacent is probably not a deal-breaker, having to direct a passenger from a rear sleeper to a head-end transition sleeper might be. Solutions could be something like a text message with your room assignment as soon as it's made (which should be no later than when the train leaves the immediately upline station).


How is the assigned seating in Acela First working out?  I would imagine that this would have a much higher likelihood of running into these issues for a couple of reasons:

1) An Acela First passenger seems to be more likely to make last-minute changes

2) There are a handful of logical "break points" for Acela traffic.

Just like sleepers, you could have a sold out, perfectly allocated train WAS-BOS, and, a couple hours before departure someone cancels WAS-PHL, in seat 1; then another passenger cancels their PHL-NYP ticket for seat 2, and another passenger cancels NYP-BOS in seat 3.  Then, a few minutes before departure, a passenger walk up wanting to buy WAS-NWK, and someone else wants to buy NWK-BOS.

One possible answer to this would be (okay, I'll put on my flame-retardant suit on now) taking a page out of the airline book, and charging those who want a specific seat or room assignment in advance.  Otherwise, you get it upon check-in (or an auto-assignment a few hours before departure).
 
Oh, wow. I thought that what happened to us was just an anomaly. :huh:  
Nope. Happened to me a few months ago. Due to a flight cancellation, I decided last minute to take the LSL SYR-CHI. Even though it was about four hours before departure, Amtrak showed a roomette available. But when I tried to book it, no such luck. Fortunately, I thought to play with the app to see where one became available the remaining distance to Chicago and it turned out to be Buffalo. So booked Business Class SYR-BUF and the roomette the rest of the way. Caught the SCA by surprise since it had shown vacant when she left BOS (this during the summer when the whole train was 449) but she quickly got the room ready. I think I was in bed and asleep before the train reached the west side of Buffalo.
 
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