Sunset Limited reopened again?

[Devil's Advocate]

Point taken. It's not as easy as I assumed to keep track of all these unnamed, unnumbered, unscheduled, and unfunded daydream routes.

 

[jis]

Actually the planned schedule for the New Orleans - Orlando service that is proposed is well documented in the SRC report for all three alternatives.

 

[dlagrua]

I believe that a connecting train from New Orleans to Orlando Florida is inevitable but for it to happen the states on the route must be prepared to fund at least 40% of the cost of the project. That is probably a big hill to climb but Talahasee, the Florida state capital has been without train service for over 10 years and that may influence the decision to restore service.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I believe that a connecting train from New Orleans to Orlando Florida is inevitable but for it to happen the states on the route must be prepared to fund at least 40% of the cost of the project. That is probably a big hill to climb but Talahasee, the Florida state capital has been without train service for over 10 years and that may influence the decision to restore service.

So Amtrak demands the states here fund part of the cost but how many states fund current LD service directly now? IMO if the NOL-ORL route requires 40% funding they should apply that formula or something similar to current routes now. Tell some of the states that they chip in for their current LD routes or they lose them (or skip over their state or reroute them out of their states).

 

[CCC1007]

I believe that a connecting train from New Orleans to Orlando Florida is inevitable but for it to happen the states on the route must be prepared to fund at least 40% of the cost of the project. That is probably a big hill to climb but Talahasee, the Florida state capital has been without train service for over 10 years and that may influence the decision to restore service.

So Amtrak demands the states here fund part of the cost but how many states fund current LD service directly now? IMO if the NOL-ORL route requires 40% funding they should apply that formula or something similar to current routes now. Tell some of the states that they chip in for their current LD routes or they lose them (or skip over their state or reroute them out of their states).

Why does this sound familiar? Do I really need to tell you again what the market for the northern plains area is again?

 

[jis]

I believe that a connecting train from New Orleans to Orlando Florida is inevitable but for it to happen the states on the route must be prepared to fund at least 40% of the cost of the project. That is probably a big hill to climb but Talahasee, the Florida state capital has been without train service for over 10 years and that may influence the decision to restore service.

So Amtrak demands the states here fund part of the cost but how many states fund current LD service directly now? IMO if the NOL-ORL route requires 40% funding they should apply that formula or something similar to current routes now. Tell some of the states that they chip in for their current LD routes or they lose them (or skip over their state or reroute them out of their states).

First of all, Amtrak has already asked states to pony up some to keep the Southwest Chief on its present route. They also accessed state funding to keep the Empire Builder on its present route. So asking for funding on infrastructure to continue running a train is not unprecedented.

I have no idea where this 40% thing that dlagrua mentions came from. The current attempt is to get federal funding to cover operating costs provided communities along the route chip in some to get the infrastructure upto speed for running the train on a useful and effective schedule. That is why a federal Senator and a bunch of federal Congresspeople from several states along the route are involved. You don't need them to get state funding. The state and city people are involved to get the infrastructure funding lined up. Amtrak apparently has said that they can come up with equipment for some money that they have talked about with the SRC. All of these discussions are in the context of FAST and the activity that originated with PRIIA. Yes the wheels of passenger rail move very very slowly, unfortunately. The money could come from FAST Title XI Sec 11104, from the Amtrak National Appropriations (for ongoing operations) and from various other federal sources like CMAQ etc.or from state sources.

Trust me, the current government in Tallahassee is least worried about train service in Tallahassee. The only train service they worry about to some extent are SunRail and Tri-Rail, and supporting AAF. Someday they might wake up to worry about train in Tallahassee, but not quite yet.

 

[A Voice]

the states on the route must be prepared to fund at least 40% of the cost of the project.

Source please?

I believe that a connecting train from New Orleans to Orlando Florida is inevitable but for it to happen the states on the route must be prepared to fund at least 40% of the cost of the project. That is probably a big hill to climb but Talahasee, the Florida state capital has been without train service for over 10 years and that may influence the decision to restore service.

Tell some of the states that they chip in for their current LD routes or they lose them (or skip over their state or reroute them out of their states).

That would only make the finances of the train worse. It still costs about the same to run a train through a state you're "skipping" over, and those costs would merely be passed along to the other states on the route (and you lose the revenue from the missed stops, further increasing the operating loss). How many state legislatures do you figure would be willing to pay the now higher tab for a train to run through a neighboring state which doesn't want to play ball?

Re-routing a train - where it is even practical - would take the route away from the established population centers, perhaps (often) in favor of a longer and/or slower and less populous line. That won't help anything either. Would it really be better to pass over Pensacola and Tallahassee in favor of small towns in southern Georgia?

There are reasons that interstate trains are properly a federal - not a state - responsibility.

 

[DKpartyguy]

I recall seeing somewhere on this forum recently, that there was some sort of "Amtrak exploratory train" that did a test trip departing NOLA and went to Jacksonville, FL. a couple of weeks ago.

It was to determine the various levels of interest at the cities along the route. It would seem to me that this is a huge sign that Amtrak is seriously considering reinstating the eastern section of the Sunset LTD. route.

Am I wrong to think this?

David

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I recall seeing somewhere on this forum recently, that there was some sort of "Amtrak exploratory train" that did a test trip departing NOLA and went to Jacksonville, FL. a couple of weeks ago.

It was to determine the various levels of interest at the cities along the route. It would seem to me that this is a huge sign that Amtrak is seriously considering reinstating the eastern section of the Sunset LTD. route.

Am I wrong to think this?

Amtrak is also the party that unilaterally ended all service along this route so who really knows? My guess is that this segment is never coming back but I've been wrong before.

 

[jis]

I recall seeing somewhere on this forum recently, that there was some sort of "Amtrak exploratory train" that did a test trip departing NOLA and went to Jacksonville, FL. a couple of weeks ago.

It was to determine the various levels of interest at the cities along the route. It would seem to me that this is a huge sign that Amtrak is seriously considering reinstating the eastern section of the Sunset LTD. route.

Am I wrong to think this?

As per current plans it will not be a reinstatement of the eastern section of the Sunset Ltd. Read Message #19 above to see what the proposal is.

The test train was run for the Southern Rail Commission (SRC) which is the body that is pushing for this service addition. Amtrak is just a party to the discussion, and its interest or lack thereof depends entirely on the SRC finding the money to run the train. So to claim that "Amtrak is interested in anything" is maybe overstating the case. All that it is interested in is getting to run the train if someone would pay for it, assuming any shortfall from farebox will simply be covered by operating subsidies. If SRC finds the money and wants to run the train it would be foolish of Amtrak to refuse to do so. So it is a bit of an opportunist interested bystander as far as I can tell. It prepared the service plan not out of its own goodness of heart, but because SRC paid it to do so.

 

[west point]

This poster wants to know what section 6 of the US constitution means when it says the US government is responsible for interstate commerce ?

 

[jis]

This poster wants to know what section 6 of the US constitution means when it says the US government is responsible for interstate commerce ?

And this poster wants to know which Section 6 of the US Constitution says so?

Are you perhaps referring to the Commerce Clause which is Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3, which says: ["Congress shall have the power "] "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes"?

Even that just says "regulate" and not "responsible for" as alleged. When applied to transportation services apparently all that it says is that the federal government is required to regulate interstate transportation services including passenger service. That is why they have the STB.

That is not to say that it is a bad idea to have a national passenger rail service supported to some extent by the federal government. But I don't think it is easy to derive that in a straightforward fashion from the US Constitution alone. One requires to go through considerable amount of case law to come anywhere close, if at all.

 

[neroden]

Legally every single railroad line is a "post road", for what it's worth. This was the 19th century authorization for the federal government to fund railways.

 

[CCC1007]

Even the former great northern main Line? It was privately funded, and only needed land grants to cross Indian land.

 

[jis]

Legally every single railroad line is a "post road", for what it's worth. This was the 19th century authorization for the federal government to fund railways.

Building the railways yes. But no one said anywhere as far as I know that Passenger services run on post roads must be run by the government. Postal services sure. That is why there is the Postal service which chooses to use services suitable to it for getting post from one place to another, which happens using almost all modes in various ways.

Unfortunately the way things worked out is, the government fulfilled its responsibility to build post roads by building actual roads and set the railroads free to go their own way, though with some significant control over freight haulage and let them drop passenger service. So federal government did play the regulatory role and arranging to keep a viable postal service going role that was given to them. I just don't like the results.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I recall seeing ... some sort of "Amtrak exploratory train" did a test trip departing NOLA and went to Jacksonville . . .

It was to determine the various levels of interest at the cities along the route. It would seem to me that this is a huge sign that Amtrak is seriously considering reinstating the eastern section of the Sunset LTD. route.

Am I wrong to think this?

As per current plans it will not be a reinstatement of the eastern section of the Sunset Ltd. Read Message #19 above . . .

The test train was run for the Southern Railroad Commission which is the body that is pushing for this service addition. Amtrak is just a party to the discussion, and its interest or lack thereof depends entirely on the SRC finding the money to run the train. So to claim that "Amtrak is interested in anything" is maybe overstating the case. All that it is interested in is getting to run the train if someone would pay for it, assuming any shortfall from farebox will simply be covered by operating subsidies. If SRC finds the money and wants to run the train it would be foolish of Amtrak to refuse to do so. So it is a bit of an opportunist interested bystander as far as I can tell. It prepared the service plan not out of its own goodness of heart, but because SRC paid it to do so.

You seem to be understating the case once again.

Amtrak has quite a lot to gain from the proposed extension of the City of New Orleans. (Which extension, btw, may carry a different name even if all the equipment comes out of the CONO consist. I heard one suggestion was to call it the Sunset Express.)

The study expects that the extension would generate about 138,000 new passengers a year. If it starts up about the same time that the Cardinal and Sunset/Eagle go daily, with each of them expected to gain well over 100,000 additional riders, Amtrak would be looking at nearly 400,000 in ridership gained. Such growth strongly rebuts the haters' claim that "nobody rides Amtrak."

At about the same time, Amtrak's passenger totals will benefit by perhaps 500,000 a year starting FY 2017 when added frequencies begin on Washington-Oregon's Cascades, NC's Piedmonts, the STL-CHI Lincoln service, and perhaps a few other corridors.


The haters' favorite measure in their propaganda against Amtrak is the 'subsidy per passenger' figure, both for individual routes (god help the Sunset West) and systemwide. The CONO extension, the daily Sunset/Eagle, and the daily Cardinal plus the bunch of new corridor frequencies will help to reduce Amtrak's overall 'subsidy per passenger'.

And these added frequencies will generate additional train miles. When Amtrak's fixed overhead (Beech Grove, debt payments, IT, etc) is divided by a larger number of train miles, the burden is slightly reduced when apportioned to all existing trains.

Of course, this route improves the national network with the multiple connections at Chicago, with connections to Silver Service at Jacksonville, and with the Sunset Shuttle and Crescent at New Orleans. The notion that 'you can't get there from here on Amtrak' is hurtful, and the Sunset Express or whatever the CONO extension is called, helps to reduce that damage.

And not nothing: Barely used stations are almost creepy, certainly not inviting, but the additional arrivals and departures at Jacksonville and New Orleans will liven up those stations nicely.

Joe Boardman seems to like the possibilities from a CONO extension. He spent a full day on the Inspection Train, talking with the Republican Governor of Mississippi, one of that state's Republican Senators, the Republican Congressman from Pensacola, and the ranking Democrat on the House Transportation Committee. They want this train, and he wants it. And the head of the FRA also rode the train, I'd think for good reason.

Keep in mind how the basics have changed. After service was suspended following Katrina, Amtrak released a study of retired service in 2009. Reading between the lines, the negativity was heavy. In particular, it pointed out that PTC could cost $20 million, and due to the shortage of equipment, it would cost $80 million to buy more for this train. That ended that discussion. Six years go by. The Stimulus paid for 90 or so cars from the wreck yard to be restored to the fleet. Now 130 bilevel cars and the Charger locomotives will be entering the fleet, freeing up a batch of Superliners and locomotives, and 90 or so Horizon cars. So in the positive feeling December 2015 report, Amtrak cheerily offers that it will not have a problem getting equipment for the two short trainsets needed for this extension.

Looks to me like the capital investment will include the PTC and probably a handful of other stuff, like a couple of passing sidings. If the right Congresscritters want this, the funds will be found. OK, some towns -- mostly Mobile -- will have to build or restore their stations; but they can do that. Looking at that Who's Who dignitaries list who rode the train, the funds will come.

The hardest part will likely be raising money to cover the operating loss. But it's small change. The minimum for New Orleans-Orlando is $5.5 million, or $10 million or so for a daily New Orleans-Mobile corridor train. Even that $5.5 million figure isn't too hard; the report says it would be $0.6 million less if they follow the current "experiment" with the CONO sans chef. So $5 million, that's chump change. Count on something from the Governor of Mississippi who was on board and speaking in favor of the service at the whistle stops. Florida won't be as friendly. But the state will have roughly $30 Billion in General Fund Revenues -- $30,000,000,000 -- this year, with about $100 million -- $100,000,000 on Transportation and Economic Development (not counting federal money flowing thru to highways etc). Will they find $2 or $3 million -- about 3%, or $3,000,000 -- for this transportation item in fairness to the folks in Pensacola, Tallahassee, Jacksonville, and Orlando?

I'm expecting to see the biggest expansion of the route map in more than 15 years by 2018. It's all good. The cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.

--------------------------------

Correction: Sorry, bad source for first numbers cited. Now using figures from the Governor's office.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Cardinal and Sunset West going daily? At this point, I'll believe it when I see it. A daily Cardinal would seem to be easy pickings, but there has been no forward progress on this in decades. I'm warming up to a daily CONO extension to Orlando. That would restore Chicago-Florida, one of the big missing holes in the Amtrak map. Of course a Chicago-Nashville-Atlanta-Florida train would be better, but there are some big -- and expensive -- holes to fill to bring this about.

 

[jis]

Look, I talked to the folks both at Amtrak and the folks working hard to establish this service. While many here have a very unrealistic and positive opinion of what "Amtrak wants", it is unfortunately far removed from reality. What Amtrak wants mostly is to stay out of trouble and maintain the current system and get someone else to come up with the money to do anything else. Any positives that fall out of it is all gravy, but they have clearly demonstrated over the years that they will not do something for which there is not a very visible champion outside their organization in very high places. They were asked to do the PIPs, they did precisely what was asked for, and then canned the entire team (almost). No one asked them strongly to follow through, so watch us get excited by the sounds of Crickets. I know it is frustrating, and it is OK for people to feel I am understating or whatever if it helps their dreaming. But as we all say, we'll see.

And at present Joe is playing rear guard action to peacefully walk into the Sunset. It will be the next guy who will do anything about this, not Joe.

Having said that, I have a good feeling about this one, not particularly because Amtrak will do anything by itself, which it won't. It is because there seems to be some political momentum building to force Amtrak to do something. OTOH, remember the test train with equal fanfare that was run down the FEC, what, some five years ago? Still the sound of Crickets on that one too, though I have been assured again that it is not dead.

 

[Palmetto]

The above synopsis is right on, I feel. While many of us here come up with grand plans for new routes, etc., Amtrak is in survival mode, and keeping its head above water is paramount. New routes are out of the question at this time. I agree with Woody that more Amtrak would help Amtrak, but there's just so darn many obstacles currently, that that scenario seems impossible as well. Lack of equipment would be the foremost obstacle.

 

[Seaboard92]

Ah what I love about AU how we go from service expansion to congressional law back to service expansion. I think a service increase is doable. And to answer a question a few posts back I can't speak for day one. But day two had quite a crowd along the line. And a few hundred at every station I went to. Talahassee might have been between 750-1000 alone. And the route was lined with people. So there is support from the local public if it runs and at workable times. What are the benefits to adding it as a CONO expansion

 

[Devil's Advocate]

They were asked to do the PIPs, they did precisely what was asked for, and then canned the entire team (almost). No one asked them strongly to follow through, so watch us get excited by the sounds of Crickets. I know it is frustrating, and it is OK for people to feel I am understating or whatever if it helps their dreaming. But as we all say, we'll see.

New theory: Future Amtrak service is used as the impetus for taxpayer funded ROW improvements and PTC implementation followed by dissolution of the project.

 

[jis]

They were asked to do the PIPs, they did precisely what was asked for, and then canned the entire team (almost). No one asked them strongly to follow through, so watch us get excited by the sounds of Crickets. I know it is frustrating, and it is OK for people to feel I am understating or whatever if it helps their dreaming. But as we all say, we'll see.

New theory: Future Amtrak service is used as the impetus for taxpayer funded ROW improvements and PTC implementation followed by dissolution of the project.

Given that some of the folks running government seem to think their mission is to make sure that it does not work, unfortunately, anything is possible. It's a bloody mess.

Ah what I love about AU how we go from service expansion to congressional law back to service expansion. I think a service increase is doable. And to answer a question a few posts back I can't speak for day one. But day two had quite a crowd along the line. And a few hundred at every station I went to. Talahassee might have been between 750-1000 alone. And the route was lined with people. So there is support from the local public if it runs and at workable times. What are the benefits to adding it as a CONO expansion

Here is a pointer to the Southern Rail Commission report. It clearly states why it believe the CONO extension to be the better choice.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

the states on the route must be prepared to fund at least 40% of the cost of the project.

Source please?

I believe that a connecting train from New Orleans to Orlando Florida is inevitable but for it to happen the states on the route must be prepared to fund at least 40% of the cost of the project. That is probably a big hill to climb but Talahasee, the Florida state capital has been without train service for over 10 years and that may influence the decision to restore service.

Tell some of the states that they chip in for their current LD routes or they lose them (or skip over their state or reroute them out of their states).

That would only make the finances of the train worse. It still costs about the same to run a train through a state you're "skipping" over, and those costs would merely be passed along to the other states on the route (and you lose the revenue from the missed stops, further increasing the operating loss). How many state legislatures do you figure would be willing to pay the now higher tab for a train to run through a neighboring state which doesn't want to play ball?

Re-routing a train - where it is even practical - would take the route away from the established population centers, perhaps (often) in favor of a longer and/or slower and less populous line. That won't help anything either. Would it really be better to pass over Pensacola and Tallahassee in favor of small towns in southern Georgia?

There are reasons that interstate trains are properly a federal - not a state - responsibility.

If that is true, why are the states for this clearly interstate train being asked to fund it? If I were to say I want the Broadway Limited restarted, most of you are going to come back and say get Pennsylvania to fund it. And yet there are plenty of states that are getting free train service at the expense of federal taxpayers. We can debate as to whether these trains should be federal and/or state but I say let's be consistent. Maybe this new train should be funded nationally or by the states. Well if any new trains should be funded by the states, I think it is more than reasonable to ask/demand states currently with service to pay their share too, especially trains that really don't serve much purpose on a national level and are just glorified state trains. It frustrates me that I can't have a train without having to pay state money for it while others can have trains without paying state money.

Am I the only one posting here who's ever lost a train before? I just want what I had before. And when I don't have it, I want to know why others have what I don't have and can't have. I don't think that's unreasonable. I think many people in the Panhandle are asking the same thing. If we only had to pay for 80% of each of the current LD trains from the federal budget, you might have enough money to fund the CONO extension and/or the Broadway Limited.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The above synopsis is right on, I feel. While many of us here come up with grand plans for new routes, etc., Amtrak is in survival mode, and keeping its head above water is paramount. New routes are out of the question at this time. I agree with Woody that more Amtrak would help Amtrak, but there's just so darn many obstacles currently, that that scenario seems impossible as well. Lack of equipment would be the foremost obstacle.

But the Viewliner II's are on their way, right?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I'm expecting to see the biggest expansion of the route map in more than 15 years by 2018. It's all good. The cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.

--------------------------------

More than 15 years. Since I first took the BL, I don't believe any new LD trains have been introduced, only state trains (correct me if I'm wrong). The BL eventually became the TR but that got canned too. I believe the SL extension took place in 1993 but Katrina wiped that out. I believe the last LD train introduced still running today is the Capitol Limited around 1981. So that's now 35 years and counting.