Amtrak Guest Rewards 2.0 Coming January 2016

[City of Miami]

Yes, when I made a redemption rez today Jennifer iterated that a cancellation prior to departure yields full refund of points.

 

[Ispolkom]

This comes to mind. There's also the fact that Amtrak is likely banking on being able to sell those roomettes at the high price regardless, but that towards the last minute it might not be able to move the bedrooms (in substantial numbers).

Except that in real life they do sell the bedrooms. I'm on western long-distance trains a fair amount (15-21 nights a year), and there always is much more pressure on bedrooms than roomettes. They do sell out, while there's usually one last roomette on any train. It's not accidental that AGR increased the cost of bedrooms. There are a suprising number of Amtrak passengers with what Kornai called a soft budget constraint, especially when they learn that the bedroom has a private bathroom.

I'm willing to admit that the economics of Amtrak sleeper charges is a little more rational than it used to be, but I'd not push the point. They are trying to maximize revenue within the constraints of their ticketing program.

But it's a soft point to me. I discovered this site 8 years ago when I was trying to figure out why a family bedroom was cheaper than a roomette from St. Paul to Portland. Onboard the train I learned that there were three tour groups, each of which offered their members only bedrooms and roomettes, thus bidding up those rooms. I've always been grateful that people here encouraged me to grab the family bedroom, rather than spending more time looking a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[Anderson]

This comes to mind. There's also the fact that Amtrak is likely banking on being able to sell those roomettes at the high price regardless, but that towards the last minute it might not be able to move the bedrooms (in substantial numbers).

Except that in real life they do sell the bedrooms. I'm on western long-distance trains a fair amount (15-21 nights a year), and there always is much more pressure on bedrooms than roomettes. They do sell out, while there's usually one last roomette on any train. It's not accidental that AGR increased the cost of bedrooms. There are a suprising number of Amtrak passengers with what Kornai called a soft budget constraint, especially when they learn that the bedroom has a private bathroom.

I'm willing to admit that the economics of Amtrak sleeper charges is a little more rational than it used to be, but I'd not push the point. They are trying to maximize revenue within the constraints of their ticketing program.

But it's a soft point to me. I discovered this site 8 years ago when I was trying to figure out why a family bedroom was cheaper than a roomette from St. Paul to Portland. Onboard the train I learned that there were three tour groups, each of which offered their members only bedrooms and roomettes, thus bidding up those rooms. I've always been grateful that people here encouraged me to grab the family bedroom, rather than spending more time looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Generally, yes, which is why you don't see this much. However, I strongly suspect that some share of the time (perhaps only 1% of it) the pressure gets inverted on a given frequency for various reasons, and Amtrak's revenue management model will say "Oops, you won't sell all of the bedrooms". That plus the objective of selling spaces twice will generate this particular "bug".

 

[BCL]

But it's a soft point to me. I discovered this site 8 years ago when I was trying to figure out why a family bedroom was cheaper than a roomette from St. Paul to Portland. Onboard the train I learned that there were three tour groups, each of which offered their members only bedrooms and roomettes, thus bidding up those rooms. I've always been grateful that people here encouraged me to grab the family bedroom, rather than spending more time looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Of course you'd expect the pricing to be rational. I mean - I've yet to see a gas station or commodity price where premium is cheaper than regular. I have heard of some strange promotions though where they were all the same price, but I haven't seen it.

However, it certainly sounds like the Amtrak pricing structure will sometimes treat each "commodity" in a vacuum separate from the other room types.

 

[Alice]

Well, I have seen premium gas cheaper than regular. It was on a cross country road trip a few years ago in several small towns in the midwest, following the tracks instead of the interstate. I noted the pump price, asked if it were a mistake, and was told it was accurate. That is the only time my car saw premium.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

And when places sell all sizes of <fill in your drink of choice> for one price for a promo. Since I usually get the small size, I kinda feel cheated.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Eliminate the travel award zone chart by aligning redemption point requirements with fares.

So do you think that there will no longer be a 20,000 point, two zone award for a roomette? Replaced with a dollar voucher?

That is what is sounds like. Points will be based off of how much your trip costs.
Still don't know if that will be low bucket cost or current bucket cost.

So, for example, if I want to book a trip with a Roomette, from NYC to MIA, on a Silver, the number of points I have to "pay" will vary depending, on several factors, including if I book on the Meteor or the Star? And in either case, it would probably "cost" me far far more than 15,000 pts?

If so, this sucks. :angry2:

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Eliminate the travel award zone chart by aligning redemption point requirements with fares.

So do you think that there will no longer be a 20,000 point, two zone award for a roomette? Replaced with a dollar voucher?

That is what is sounds like. Points will be based off of how much your trip costs.
Still don't know if that will be low bucket cost or current bucket cost.

So, for example, if I want to book a trip with a Roomette, from NYC to MIA, on a Silver, the number of points I have to "pay" will vary depending, on several factors, including if I book on the Meteor or the Star? And in either case, it would probably "cost" me far far more than 15,000 pts?
If so, this sucks. :angry2:

Or maybe the full route (NYP-MIA) will cost 15,000 points but stations in between will cost less points. So if I wanted to go WIL to ORL, it might be less than 15,000 points.
Well just have to wait and see.

 

[cyferx]

"I don't get your last sentence though - the part about the real value of the points being the 'upgrade' not the rail fare. Please explain." -City of Miami

I mean the real value of the points is getting into First Class. I never use my points to buy coach seats. So, if the value remains in the upgrading, then I will be fine. I don't mind paying for the coach fare. (Although companion tickets are really nice.) This is similar to airlines, most of the usage that I see is upgrading to Economy Plus or Business or even First Class. Completely free travel is not needed to make the system work. I would even use points to get into Club Acela if a) I didn't have to buy 5 vouchers at a time, and b) everyone and their brother wasn't already in there. (I think there should be more exclusivity. You don't go there to be just as crowded as with the hoi polloi. LOL.)

So I think that using the points for perks and upgrades is where the real value is, not in getting coach fare for free.

 

[Ryan]

We have no idea what anything is going to cost at this point.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

S+ & SE members are probably going to want to burn up some of their built up points in the next year. I wonder if that will diminish their numbers in 2016 and/or 2017?

 

[Anderson]

You know, I realized this afternoon that the best way to describe high AGR status (and a reasonably large point pile) is as an insurance policy...one that I probably spend at least a couple hundred dollars per year on. This makes me wonder how much I'd pay straight-out for a guarantee of not having to pay high bucket, for example. I know I'd pay a reasonable sum for guaranteed diner access on the Meteor most days, and for a lot of this I would happily front at least some cash in advance.

Edit: Depending on how the points situation goes, there is every chance I'll engage in a "hard crash" in terms of points earnings. Right now I'm probably earning somewhere in the ballpark of 80-100k/yr. If the credit card deflates and the program's value proposition collapses, I can easily see a situation where that drops to about 20k.

At that point, the main thing keeping me attached to Amtrak's LD system (overall) is the fact that Virgin does not fly WAS-Florida (MCO, FLL, etc.). On a cost-for-product basis Amtrak still kills the other airlines, but being functionally reduced to one SB train per day with the Star cuts means that at least some legs would immediately migrate from Amtrak to VX. OTP problems have already mostly forced me off of the transcontinental system...*sighs*

 

[calwatch]

From talking to an attendee at yesterday's LOSSAN meeting, it was sold to the Board as a better deal for corridor passengers. We'll have to wait for the audio to be uploaded to see what was actually said. They spent only a couple of minutes on this, as expected, with more being spent on adding a Montecito stop to the Surfliner for private varnish.

 

[Barciur]

So my situation is that I've been trying to save up 40k points for a trip in 2 years time most likely from Lancaster to Chicago to San Francisco... I only earn about 7000 a year on average, I bought 5500 this year to help out. I am going to Miami before New Years for cash in a sleeper and returning in coach. Should I maybe cancel the cash reservation and just book it with 15k points? I'm not so sure what's the best thing I should do at this point.

 

[rtabern]

We really hope the point values mentioned in this article aren't going to be true (yes, we are withholding complete judgement until we hear the announcement that is supposedly coming on August 31). Besides the amenities cuts going on... this kinda crap/extreme de-valuation could be the nail in the coffin of us riding Amtrak for our future vacations. Possible trips that cost 40,000 points this year... costing between 125,000 and 250,000 points next year?? CRAP. We hope the folks at Amtrak Guest Rewards are smart enough not to de-value the points this much. Even though the terms and conditions say they can pretty much do what they want with the program, it's not really fair, especially to people who bought thousands of points recently (glad we didn't this year, yet!!).

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2015/08/17/amtrak-devaluation/

The other "nail in the coffin" for us would be if Amtrak did away with the 100-point minimum... meaning no Select Plus status unless you actually spend $5,000 or more per year. For the past about 9 years now that we have been an Amtrak Guest Rewards member, we have purposefully done "point runs" between MKA-MKE and CHI-GLN to earn Select Plus status so that we could use the Metropolitan Lounge whenever we travel to or through Chicago Union Station. Sure, doing this generated maybe only $800.00 ($8 per ticket x 100) for Amtrak, but it's still $800 in their coffers they wouldn't have otherwise really... well, maybe $770 with the $30 in pretzels and soad we eat in the lounge... LOL.

I guess see what happens... and I guess if it's going to be this bad, we'll be booking one last "hoorah" trip in a bedroom before 12/31/15 for 2016 to burn off all 300,000 points and then close down our accounts.

The reality is, if I am actually going to shell out $1,800 cross-country for a bedroom, it ain't going to be on Amtrak... it's going to be on VIA or private car charters. Why Amtrak when VIA is the same amount for trips (especially on 50% off sales)? VIA with 4 historic dome cars -- 3 of which are for sleeping car passengers only vs. Amtrak's 1 over-crowded lounge that always seems to be ditry (unless you are on the Cardinal or other trains and just get a combined diner-lounge)... VIA with good meals vs. Amtrak's worsening meals... VIA with on-board activites planned througout the day (talks, beer tastings, wine tastings, etc.) vs. nothing on Amtrak anymore (I remember bingo games, etc. when I was a kid). VIA's service or Amtrak's new policy of having to pay for your coffee and juice after 11am now?

I have taken ATLEAST one Amtrak long-distance trip EVERY YEAR since I was about 4 years old (1983)... I could see 2016 being the last year, sadly, this happens... again, the first nail in the coffin was the cut in ammenities and the last for us could be the potential AGR change. I hope there is enough backlash to the changes that I am hearing... even though knowing Amtrak media relations and customers relations will spin this up as "great for short-haul customers" and those on the NEC.

I am burning my points down -- I usually keep a balance of 300,000 to 350,000 or more -- down to 278,000 now and will keep dropping.

 

[rtabern]

Since my post above... I have been doing a little math here this morning to figure all of this out (yes, speculative until an announcement is made, but good to be prepared in my opinion).

SO... If AGR bases point resumptions at the same monetary value that Southwest Airlines does, that means 49 AGR points will equal $1 towards paying for travel... (49 Southwest Airlines points buy you about $1 in travel).

Applied to Amtrak... a $1,800 bedroom from Chicago to the West Coast that could redeemed for 40,000 points now... would end up costing 90,000 points in 2016. NOT COOL.

That means your points lost more than half of their value people!!!

Also, the more I think about it, I see the end of the 100 point minimum deal. Why? Well, I could spend $3.15 from a ticket on the Southwest Chief or one of the Illinois state trains (low-bucket with NARP discount) from Mendota to Princeton and get 150 points being a Select Plus member (100 minimum plus 50 point S+ bonus). If 49 AGR points will buy $1 in travel... that means the 150 points earned for that $3 ticket will be equal. As in, buy one ticket and get one free for that short stretch... and Amtrak isn't going to tolerate that with AGR 2.0... so bye, bye 100 point bonuses too is my thought, but I could be wrong.

 

[abcnews]

I somehow think that the plan will actually be more generous than Southwest, since Southwest is pretty much a discount carrier. I mean, if you are flying on a discount carrier - with a discounted ticket, then it's hard to expect a lucrative Frequent Flyer plan at Southwest. But we'll see we what the new plan looks like soon.

 

[jis]

As long as the airlines on the NEC give 500 point minimum it is likely that the 500 point minimum on Acela will be maintained, though the the fare levels are going it may progressively become more and more meaningless since the double th dollar amount may become more than 500 anyway.. AFAIR the original raison d'etre for AGR was to make Acela competitive with airlines. The rest of the AGR thing sort of followed from it. I would not be surprised if the 100 point minimum is maintained but requires a spend of at least $25 or some such, with lower spend per segment just earning the normal double the dollar amount in points for those without status.

All mere speculation of course....

 

[jebr]

If it's truly going to be better for short-haul passengers (like what was reported that they said at the LOSSAN meeting,) I would think the 100 point minimum would stay in some fashion. Many of those trips are less than $50 per segment, and so removal of the 100 point minimum would be a blow to that thought process.

 

[jis]

If it's truly going to be better for short-haul passengers (like what was reported that they said at the LOSSAN meeting,) I would think the 100 point minimum would stay in some fashion. Many of those trips are less than $50 per segment, and so removal of the 100 point minimum would be a blow to that thought process.

That is a very good point Jeb!

 

[Bob Dylan]

"..turn out the lights, the parties over, tomorrow begins a whole new day again.."

Since we know there will be a devaluation of points in the "New and Improved AGR 2.0", it's just a matter of waiting on the details when they are released by AGR.

With the increase in the cost of buying points on the last promo, hopefully the devaluation will be in line with the increase and not be a Draconian cut like 50-100%!!!

Lots of us have been through revisions of various loyalty travel programs and the "new and improved" versions are always a devaluation of the benefits, @ a higher cost!

We'll see when the details are released,as the old saying goes, "the devil is in the details!"

If the points are totally Fare based as to earning/spending, not many of us will be purchasing $1000-$3000 LD tickets, or if if the 100 Point Minimum is gone, the cheapie bus lines and local Transit will gain alot of current Amtrak riders business!

As jis said, the 500 points for Acela BC and the 750 for FC upgrades were already not much of an incentive unless your tickets are being paid for by someone else like an employer!

I'm from Missouri in this, Show me!!!

 

[Ryan]

Since we know there will be a devaluation of points

We do? I'm not aware of any numbers being published.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Since we know there will be a devaluation of points

We do? I'm not aware of any numbers being published.

I understand your point Ryan but based on all the other "New and Improved" Loyalty Programs I've seen that go to Revenue Based Point Awards, every single one has resulted in devaluation of points/mileage/rooms/cars etc.

If you know of any that didn't please share it and I'll look into signing up!

I'm still from Missouri on this one, Show Me! YMMV which is great!

 

[jis]

Since we know there will be a devaluation of points

We do? I'm not aware of any numbers being published.

I understand your point Ryan but based on all the other "New and Improved" Loyalty Programs I've seen that go to Revenue Based Point Awards, every single one has resulted in devaluation of points/mileage/rooms/cars etc.

If you know of any that didn't please share it and I'll look into signing up!

I'm still from Missouri on this one, Show Me! YMMV which is great!

The thing about revenue based awards is that the amount of award you get is not cut and dried determined by distance traveled. For example on United I am consistently getting way more points than I used to get under the old system because of the fares that the company tends to use for business travel. It is the real bottom feeder fare users who get thoroughly screwed. Those that can afford or are forded to for reasons of health, to use Business or First class make out like bandits, and even more so if they hold high status.

On the redemption side things had been devalued so much from mid 90's that I have tended not to get free tickets at all so don;t know much about it. My stash of points is now consistently used to get pure points based or points and money based upgrades from low to mid level Coach fares.

The other odd feature of the United Mileage plus, which is the one I use mostly - actually way more than I use AGR even, is that elite qualification depends on actual miles traveled and a total dollar threshold, and not on the ticket prices based point system. So very little has changed in elite qualification, and indeed very low fare points runs on long routes still make a lot of sense to get qualified as elite, because the spinoff from such is even more disproportionately skewed now.

As I said in an earlier message, all the devil is in the details, which we know nothing about in AGR 2.0. Once we know that everyone will need to evaluate whether there is an useful niche in the new scheme of things where their needs fit and they can thrive, or there is none such thus making it easy to simply abandon the whole thing.

 

[BCL]

I think we all know what the issue is with Amtrak. The cost of redemption for sleepers was way out of proportion with the retail price, especially when there's no separate redemption amount for per passenger transportation. It gets pretty obvious when buying points isn't simply to put someone over the top for a redemption, but because in the long run it's cheaper than paying cash fares.

Our perspective as AGR members is that it can be a great value. Amtrak's perspective is that it's costing them too much. I'm pretty sure they're willing to reevaluate everything, including club membership. I mean - if a thousand people worked within a block of NYP and had Select+ memberships and wished to use ClubAcela every work day rather than getting breakfast, lunch, or dinner, I'd think they'd start rethinking that pretty quickly.

Honestly - if there were a club at EMY (too small a station however) I would absolutely be cleaning them out on a regular basis. That's kind of human nature to try and extract as much as possible from as little as possible.