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Or, to put it another way, assuming a big devaluation is coming, Amtrak is saying that ridership is up enough that they no longer have to care about alienating their most loyal customer base. Or, yet another way, ANOTHER reason to not ride Amtrak. :help:

That said, I wonder, with all the points from credit cards, credit card bonuses, point bonus sales, partnership points - all those that are obtained not actually riding Amtrak - sitting around in member's accounts, what Amtrak's liability for AGR is on their financials? A sharp devaluation of points would be a two edged sword that slices and dices and bleeds that dollar amount down to a shadow of its former self.

At this point it seems likely that one more time Mr. Boardman will be biting one of the two hand that feeds him - the one which isn't a bully and doesn't carry the big budgetary axe. Way to go!
 
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Personally, I am looking forward to the changes. I never liked the "zone" redemptions. Sure, if you really worked the system you could come up with long trips for few points, but for real travel, it all depended on where you were going. Sure it was nice, being able to book a reward ticket just before departure at high bucket. But usually I use points for planned trips. So for me, I would rather book a low bucket ticket, with points based on the price of the ticket, vs how many imaginary lines I cross. Case in point, we usually take a 2 night trip each year, OKC-FTW-CHI-NOL, with 2 bedrooms. That 2 night trip, with a 2 room suite cost us. 40,000 points. I just booked a trip, CHI-SAC, also a 2 night trip, with 2 room suite, that cost us 80,000 points. Ironically, the trip that takes half the points, typically costs twice as much, if booked with cash. Go figure. Doesn't make sense. All this moving rooms in the middle of the night at Wolf Point, Toledo, etc, is crazy. Just tell me how many points I need, to go from point A to point B.

To be fair, I'm used to this kind of program. About a year and half ago, I switched from Delta, to Southwest, primarily because of Southwest's rewards program. I love being able to book a rewards flight based on fare, vs the usual 25000/40000/50000 point buckets for normal rewards. Just makes more sense to me. If I want a good deal, I book early. If I can't, I can still book, just costs me more in points, for late notice trips. But I think this is a good move for Amtrak, and will make it easier to book multi-zone trips in some cases. We'll see I guess, but I'm actually a bit optimistic about this change.
 
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Could there be an equalization factor which plays itself out, eventually?

Redemption values decline. Sleeper car bookings on AGR decline. More space opens up in sleeper cars for cash paying customers. Accommodation prices decline in an attempt to fill up the empty space. Which, in turn adds redemption value back in.

Further, perhaps there becomes greater incentive to book coach or business class on AGR. Which fills up cars. Which allows Amtrak to raise prices for cash paying customers.
 
The 100 point minimum is the reason I can use points to book a roomette every couple of years. I'm semi retired with not a lot of disposable income and using point runs, especially during Double Days has been quite beneficial. We just returned from a 40,000 point trip..two two zones. I hope these days aren't numbered. I've been an AGR member for years and have been taking Amtrak for over 25 years on cross country pleasure trips.

Guess we'll have to wait another week and a half to get all the info.
 
Back in 2013 I did get to ask if AGR was making money.

A) "Hell yes we make money." *But not on ever trip. The amount Chase pay us (Amtrak) makes us profitable, but the full cost is not always charge to AGR.

Don't like the way he put this, but he was quite certain that Amtrak was making money from the AGR program.

I also ask about the zone map, and why it was set up that way. Two zone from Chicago to NYC, but add a leg to Dallas TX, and it the same two zone trip. Two nights / two trains vs one night / one train. The weakness of a zone system vs a per trip / night. Gave the route of Arizona to Montana trip 4 nights in a sleeper for the price of a one zone reward as a really bad abuse of the system.

B) The Zone system was base on the old travel America map. While no current plan to change (in 2013), he does agree change may occur, and agreed with the weak points of the system.

So the devil in the details, but getting rid of the zone loop hole is something I can support. More trips to Chicago from Utica to get deep dish pizza.

YMMV
 
Just-Thinking-51 said:
B) The Zone system was base on the old travel America map. While no current plan to change (in 2013), he does agree change may occur, and agreed with the weak points of the system.
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Zones aren't really that unusual. A lot of commuter train systems use such maps, such as Caltrain. However, it did seem kind of strange to me that one could cover 9 stations within a single zone, but a short trip from Sunnyvale to Lawrence would be two zones.

Caltrain+Zone+Map.png


However, Amtrak already has point to point specific pricing. Why they need zone maps for awards redemptions just seems odd - at least for the

I'd be OK with a revenue proportional redemption for LD trains and flat rate for the special routes. I like the idea of encouraging members to maximize the use of these routes. I do wonder if and how they might tweak thruway buses and the like.
 
Nice map!

BTW I wish this... That they start their new plan and points system, but also allow for the old US zone awards to be used - but with some new restrictions...

*Must book 48 hours or less, based on availability

*Booking fee - maybe $100 for two zone awards. $50 for one zone, and make the fee non refundable.

That gives Amtrak some additional revenue from those Zone award fees, but it would allow us to continue pulling off those long two zone awards - when space is available. And they can at least attempt to sell every roomette and bedroom up until 48 hours prior to departure. Then after that - allow use of AGR zone awards for the remaining rooms and seats.
 
abcnews said:
Nice map!

BTW I wish this... That they start their new plan and points system, but also allow for the old US zone awards to be used - but with some new restrictions...

*Must book 48 hours or less, based on availability

*Booking fee - maybe $100 for two zone awards. $50 for one zone, and make the fee non refundable.

That gives Amtrak some additional revenue from those Zone award fees, but it would allow us to continue pulling off those long two zone awards - when space is available. And they can at least attempt to sell every roomette and bedroom up until 48 hours prior to departure. Then after that - allow use of AGR zone awards for the remaining rooms and seats.
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I'd hope that your proposal is only for sleepers. When I booked a one-zone coach redemption, it was only $130 retail price. If it was low bucket it would have been less than $100.
 
Yes, sleeper Awards. And I could see them even making the awards available with 7 days (or less) before departure. Then if your riding on a free ticket in a bedroom, you most likely did not cause Amtrak to miss out on selling the accommodation. After all, they seem to have a need to improve the sleeper revenue as much as possible.

When I traveled by air on a regular basis, the airlines that I frequented the most would allow me to ride in First Class if they had extra seats available. In that case it was complimentary, based on availability at flight time. It also strengthened my loyalty to those particular air carriers.
 
The Davy Crockett said:
Or, to put it another way, assuming a big devaluation is coming, Amtrak is saying that ridership is up enough that they no longer have to care about alienating their most loyal customer base. Or, yet another way, ANOTHER reason to not ride Amtrak. :help:

At this point it seems likely that one more time Mr. Boardman will be biting one of the two hand that feeds him - the one which isn't a bully and doesn't carry the big budgetary axe. Way to go!
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nicely put. them that's got the gold makes the rules(or at least the rules are made for their benefit).
 
This all sounds like a "more for me" less for you scheme. LD sleeper prices are already expensive and require much spending to get the points. The rooms get more decrepid by the day and the prices continue to rise. some of the bedrooms that we have been in of late had ripped seats, ripped curtains, a filthy carpet, loose bolsters that rattled, a bad latch on the bathroom door and one even had no light in the bathroom. The food quality is declining and the ride is getting worse. We will need to think twice before using many more points for the same garbage. This is a disgrace.
 
Maybe I'm just crazy, but I'm going to wait and see what the program actually will be before I decide whether to scream that the sky is falling with AGR 2.0

All we know at this point is that it's going to be a revenue-based redemption system. We don't know if that will be a huge devaluation of points, or whether it'll be a net neutral for many trips. I'm 99.9% sure that it will be a negative for those who make sleeper trips when rooms are at high bucket between Wolf Point and El Paso. But the vast majority of people don't make those trips, and I'm not sold it's going to be a huge devaluation of points for most trips. Probably will be some devaluation during high bucket season or trips that are very advantageous in the current zone system, but for those who are poorly located within the zone system or want to make shorter redemptions could very well see a net positive with the change.
 
The way I see it, we can sit around and moan and speculate and get our blood pressures up and all that, or sit back and get the full information and then either be able to discover a niche where the new setup works for us, and use it, or if there is no such niche just forget about it and go on with life. There is not much that we can do to change things except in the periphery, and in order to effectively do that using meaningful feedback, first it is necessary to have sufficient facts at our disposal, which we currently don't.
 
jis said:
The way I see it, we can sit around and moan and speculate and get our blood pressures up and all that, or sit back and get the full information and then either be able to discover a niche where the new setup works for us, and use it, or if there is no such niche just forget about it and go on with life. There is not much that we can do to change things except in the periphery, and in order to effectively do that using meaningful feedback, first it is necessary to have sufficient facts at our disposal, which we currently don't.
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Yeah - but what fun is that when we can't really speculate how any changes might benefit or hurt us individually.
 
jebr said:
Maybe I'm just crazy, but I'm going to wait and see what the program actually will be before I decide whether to scream that the sky is falling with AGR 2.0
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I don't see anyone screaming about the sky falling.

When members express apprehension or dismay over these changes those are perfectly reasonable concerns in my view. I've been playing the points game for a long time. I have flown hundreds of thousands of miles across dozens of airlines, hired cars from every major rental company, and visited literally hundreds of hotels across dozens of brands all over the world. I have more points earning credit cards than I have fingers and I have more loyalty accounts than I could hope to name in one sitting. In other words I believe I know a thing or two about how loyalty programs work in the real world far away from the steering committee's echo chamber.

If you want to wait to say anything then by all means wait. If you want to debate the merits of a revenue based system today then by all means join the discussion. Just don't claim to be patiently waiting while simultaneously scolding those who are willing to express their concerns now. It's true that we don't really know how this is going to play out but we do know that 99% of significant program changes have historically been tied to devalutions of one form or another. Once the full story is out there may not be enough time or enough rooms available to provide everyone with a chance to make use of the current rules at the current rate if that suits them better than whatever comes next.
 
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I agree with Devil's Advocate. I'm one who is planning my 2016 trips now rather than "waiting to see what will happen."

Although it would not be very customer friendly of Amtrak, there is nothing that would prevent them from making an announcement in 2 weeks that says "effective immediately, award reservations for all travel beginning on or after January 1, 2016, will be under the new awards structure."

In the unlikely event of a sudden change in cabin pressure that the new program is better than the old one, I can always cancel and rebook.
 
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abcnews said:
Yes, sleeper Awards. And I could see them even making the awards available with 7 days (or less) before departure. Then if your riding on a free ticket in a bedroom, you most likely did not cause Amtrak to miss out on selling the accommodation. After all, they seem to have a need to improve the sleeper revenue as much as possible.

When I traveled by air on a regular basis, the airlines that I frequented the most would allow me to ride in First Class if they had extra seats available. In that case it was complimentary, based on availability at flight time. It also strengthened my loyalty to those particular air carriers.
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Amtrak is always selling the accomodations and receiving revenue. You are talking like they are free. if you use AGR points the retaillers are paying for your trip using a percentage of your purchase.
 
abcnews said:
Yes, sleeper Awards. And I could see them even making the awards available with 7 days (or less) before departure. Then if your riding on a free ticket in a bedroom, you most likely did not cause Amtrak to miss out on selling the accommodation. After all, they seem to have a need to improve the sleeper revenue as much as possible.

When I traveled by air on a regular basis, the airlines that I frequented the most would allow me to ride in First Class if they had extra seats available. In that case it was complimentary, based on availability at flight time. It also strengthened my loyalty to those particular air carriers.
Click to expand...
Hard to plan a vacation with that plan. I would not want to pay for hotel, game tickets etc and take a week off work to find out my plan fell through.
 
While everyone's been talking, I've been booking -- sleeper travel in two zones, plus another sleeper trip in one zone, for 2016. I am confident that, once confirmed, Amtrak will honor any and all UNCHANGED reservations, without increasing the points required. And if by some miracle the amount of points required for my confirmed reservations goes down, then I am certain that Amtrak will allow cancellations and rebooking at the "miracle" lower rates.
 
I wonder if I could book a 2016 trip now with just my name on the reservation and then add second passenger later after the new program has been announced. I don't have a problem planning trips way in the future but those who might join me are not quite as forward thinking.
 
I put the second passenger name in on all of my future reservations. Even if they decide not to join me, I remain convinced that Amtrak won't kick me off the train because the second passenger booked for the room is a no-show.
 

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