Corridor diners?

[Paulus]

Has Amtrak ever run with full diners on corridor trains rather than cafe cars, either on a trial basis or as a regular feature? If so, how did they do?

 

[jis]

Has Amtrak ever run with full diners on corridor trains rather than cafe cars, either on a trial basis or as a regular feature? If so, how did they do?

Not since the 80s AFAIK. They might have done so immediately after A-Day, but I am not sure.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

What was the last train to have such a service?

 

[fairviewroad]

Considering the lethargic tempo of service on most LD diners, a corridor sit-down diner would seem to be destined for failure

unless they completely re-invented the wheel. The current cafe cars have room for improvement, but the basic concept of

"order at the counter" seems to be sufficient for most corridor trips.

That said, I believe there is at least one case of Amtrak offering full dining service on a corridor train. The Cascades route (but

only the section between SEA and VAC, IIRC) offered full sit-down dining service for a few years. But this is no longer offered.

You can see a video of how the Cascades dining car looked here:



Never had the chance to experience that, and I'm not sure I'd call it a "full diner" in the traditional sense, but it was at least a

case of being able to order a meal from a server and have it delivered to your table. I guess Acela First Class is kind of like

that, but it's not the same since there is not a dining car as such.

 

[Sactobob]

Considering the lethargic tempo of service on most LD diners, a corridor sit-down diner would seem to be destined for failure

unless they completely re-invented the wheel. The current cafe cars have room for improvement, but the basic concept of

"order at the counter" seems to be sufficient for most corridor trips.

That said, I believe there is at least one case of Amtrak offering full dining service on a corridor train. The Cascades route (but

only the section between SEA and VAC, IIRC) offered full sit-down dining service for a few years. But this is no longer offered.

You can see a video of how the Cascades dining car looked here:

I had the good fortune to enjoy breakfast and dinner in the dining car of the Vancouver B.C. Cascades several times while it was still being offered, and it was certainly a very pleasant experience, although with a very limited menu. Similar service was offered for several years in half of the cafe cars on the San Joaquin trains, with a second server attending to the sit-down patrons.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Would like to see a Diner on the Palmetto, maybe even Pennsylvanian. Same with Coast Daylight.

I don't think the Acela counts as full diner service, either.

 

[Trogdor]

Considering the lethargic tempo of service on most LD diners, a corridor sit-down diner would seem to be destined for failure

unless they completely re-invented the wheel. The current cafe cars have room for improvement, but the basic concept of

"order at the counter" seems to be sufficient for most corridor trips.

That said, I believe there is at least one case of Amtrak offering full dining service on a corridor train. The Cascades route (but

only the section between SEA and VAC, IIRC) offered full sit-down dining service for a few years. But this is no longer offered.

Never had the chance to experience that, and I'm not sure I'd call it a "full diner" in the traditional sense, but it was at least a

case of being able to order a meal from a server and have it delivered to your table. I guess Acela First Class is kind of like

that, but it's not the same since there is not a dining car as such.

I ate breakfast and dinner on the Cascades in the diner back when that service was offered (510 and 517 only). The menu was different from that of long-distance trains, and I don't know how the food was prepared, but I don't think that in and of itself would disqualify it from being called a "full diner." They had a kitchen area in the bistro car (right next door) where the food was prepared and brought over.

 

[railiner]

As far as I can recall, Amtrak has never offered full traditional diners on any corridor train...as said earlier, just not economically feasible.

I have enjoyed the experience by booking travel between New York and Alexandria on long distance trains, when I just wanted to go to Washington.

Back in pre-Amtrak times, there were a few premier corridor trains that did feature full diners, such as Pennsy's Afternoon Congressional, or New Haven's Merchants Limited.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Penn Central bankruptcy led to replacement of any dining cars on the corridor either north or south of New York with snackbars. I remember riding on Pennsy and New Haven Dining Cars on the corridor in the early to mid 60s. Amtrak also ran full dining cars on Seattle-Portland non Coast Starlight trains. I ate in a former NP two tone green dining car and sat in an ex NP parlor car from Seattle to Portland in 1972. GM&O also ran full dining and parlor car service between Chicago and St Louis immediately pre-Amtrak and that service continued for a while after Amtrak until the Turboliners replaced the traditional trains.

 

[MARC Rider]

In the summer of 1975 I used to travel between Harrisburg and New York on the weekends. Silverliner to 30th street, then the Merchants Limited to NYP. They had a diner, and I usually had dinner. I would usually go to the diner right before we got to Trenton, and was finished before the train arrived in Newark. Themenu was quite simple, baked fish for $2, baked chicken for $3, and a steal for $8. I think a Big Mac at the time was about 50 cents. The dinner included a salad, rolls, vegetable and potatoes or rice.

 

[MARC Rider]

I wouldn't mind seeing diners on the following:

Palmetto (They could serve breakfast, lunch and dinner.. The current cafe car service ften runs out of food by the time the train gets to Richmond, i.e. dinner time)

Vermonter

Carolinian

Pennsylvanian

Maple Leaf and Adirondack

Empire service trains NYP -- Niagra Falls

 

[Anderson]

I thought I remembered some mention of diners on the Corridor on here, MARC Rider. Thanks for validating my memory.

As to the cost situation, the most I think you could ever hope for would be a diner-club type operation. Even that would run into trouble, though, considering the number of folks who either bring their own food or who are riding for a short enough period not to want to pay for a full meal on board. I suggest this as plausible just because of the direction that Regionals are going (i.e. longer trains) as well as the Acelas (which are likely going to get longer as time goes by...I think the only question is going to be whether an Acela II project sticks with 8 cars or goes up to something like 10 or 12...Eurostar sets have 14-18 cars in a set, though I suspect the main limit in the US is going to be platform lengths at major intermediate stations (NHV, PVD, etc.) rather than power issues), so I could see a situation where trains are long enough to end up with a second FSC (either full or partial) and/or merit one of the FSCs being upgraded to have a small kitchen. The market for such a service in terms of percentages of riders might be small, but a small part of a very big amount can still end up as a big amount.

 

[Nathanael]

The thing to watch for is trains which are running out of food. First step, stock the cafe cars with more food. Second step, dual cafe cars. Third step, diner -- but the diner is unlikely to be appropriate unless it's serving three meals. This is assuming the trains can't simply be sped up enough to eliminate people's need for so many on-board meals (faster == better).

The need for diners is not manifesting on Regionals (yet), and may never (as Regionals get faster and faster), but instead manifests on the day trains which "run through" from the NEC to elsewhere. And this will probably be a problem as long as they are running through to slow, freight-controlled tracks. The Palmetto is the obvious candidate for a diner. The Vermonter, Carolinian and Adirondack are also running for long enough times that a diner might make sense, but it's more likely that they will simply be sped up until it doesn't make sense. The Maple Leaf would encounter impossible staffing difficulties due to the joint Amtrak-VIA operation. I don't see any other plausible candidates in the network; the rest are just too short or too quick.

I'm kind of wondering about the future of the Palmetto, actually. It provides additional service to Georgia (which doesn't care), South Carolina (which doesn't care), North Carolina (which does, but the Palmetto misses all the population centers), and Virginia (which has lots of parallel service and more coming); it has only one unique station; and it's just outside the "must be state-funded" length limit. And it's running on freight track south of DC, of course. If Amtrak hits funding problems which require operational reductions (for instance, due to sequestration or something), it's the obvious target, as it's the one which has minimum political cost. It's certainly a far less worthwhile train than a second NY-Chicago frequency would be (for example), and is using almost as much equipment. I would not expect Amtrak to even consider putting a diner on such a train.

 

[calwatch]

The San Joaquin advisory committee has been talking about food on that train for some time. Basically the full meal service flopped due to the lack of interest, plus they do serve sandwiches and burritos, which aren't that bad. The big issue is the lack of any food service within a 10 minute walking radius of the Bakersfield station (unless you count the continental breakfast at the Best Western across the street). If they had a food truck in the parking lot of the Amtrak station, it would do very well for the bus connections.

 

[Anderson]

The San Joaquin advisory committee has been talking about food on that train for some time. Basically the full meal service flopped due to the lack of interest, plus they do serve sandwiches and burritos, which aren't that bad. The big issue is the lack of any food service within a 10 minute walking radius of the Bakersfield station (unless you count the continental breakfast at the Best Western across the street). If they had a food truck in the parking lot of the Amtrak station, it would do very well for the bus connections.

Yeah, I can see this. Given that folks connecting to LA and points further south are looking at much longer trip than just the train ride, I see the point.

The main thing seems to me, at least, to be that unless a train gets really long (either in number of cars or length of trip), two food service cars are unnecessary and it might just make sense to have either a beefed-up cafe or something like the old "lunch counter" cars with a cook to offer freshly-cooked meals. To be fair, this seems viable on a bilevel car (I suspect you could take up most of downstairs with food for a two-day round trip) in the vein of the CCC.

And that might be an answer, actually...the CCC was a bad move for an overnight train, but could it work for longer corridor operations with heavy ridership?

 

[railiner]

In the summer of 1975 I used to travel between Harrisburg and New York on the weekends. Silverliner to 30th street, then the Merchants Limited to NYP. They had a diner, and I usually had dinner. I would usually go to the diner right before we got to Trenton, and was finished before the train arrived in Newark. Themenu was quite simple, baked fish for $2, baked chicken for $3, and a steal for $8. I think a Big Mac at the time was about 50 cents. The dinner included a salad, rolls, vegetable and potatoes or rice.

I stand (actually, sit), corrected.

I went over to look at the May '75 TT, and you are correct--Amtrak's Merchants did indeed offer full dining service. I guess I forgotten about it, and the others mentioned in other posts....

 

[Michael061282]

I wish it would work, but I don't think it would. A couple of years ago I rode the Silver Meteor from New York to Richmond specifically so I could get dinner. I took the first seating, which was called right as we were leaving Baltimore, Our food didn't get to us until we were past Wilmington and we didn't get dessert until we were arriving into Baltimore. The food was really good (I love Amtrak dinners but know a lot of people don't) however the slowness of service was horrible. And also the price is starting to be prohibitive for coach passengers like I was that day. If it had of been a regular corridor train, you couldn't get more then 1 or 2 seatings in at least mean between DC & Boston and not even that between NY & DC.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

I rode the Montrealer several times in the mid 70s and full dining service was available to all in the corridor…….Dinner northbound out of Washington around 5pm and Breakfast southbound from Penn Station at 7am.

 

Montrealer Timetable May 1975

 

[jis]

I rode the Montrealer several times in the mid 70s and full dining service was available to all in the corridor…….Dinner northbound out of Washington around 5pm and Breakfast southbound from Penn Station at 7am.

 

Montrealer Timetable May 1975

Even today full Diner service is available on all LD trains (except Palmetto) that run on the NEC. However, they are not Corridor Trains.

Back then many LD trains did carry corridor passengers though, unlike today.

 

[VentureForth]

I just can't see how adding a diner to corridor Trains could even begin to be economically viable. However, the current cafe doesn't seen to be cutting it.

The 66/67 and the Palmetto could both use a glorified snack car. CCC is a great idea for these routes, but you can't pull a Superliner into NYP.

I think both these Trains should get a Viewliner diner configured as a CCC.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I just can't see how adding a diner to corridor Trains could even begin to be economically viable. However, the current cafe doesn't seen to be cutting it.

The 66/67 and the Palmetto could both use a glorified snack car. CCC is a great idea for these routes, but you can't pull a Superliner into NYP.

I think both these Trains should get a Viewliner diner configured as a CCC.

You mean something like The Card has? :help:

 

[Trogdor]

I wish it would work, but I don't think it would. A couple of years ago I rode the Silver Meteor from New York to Richmond specifically so I could get dinner. I took the first seating, which was called right as we were leaving Baltimore, Our food didn't get to us until we were past Wilmington and we didn't get dessert until we were arriving into Baltimore. The food was really good (I love Amtrak dinners but know a lot of people don't) however the slowness of service was horrible. And also the price is starting to be prohibitive for coach passengers like I was that day. If it had of been a regular corridor train, you couldn't get more then 1 or 2 seatings in at least mean between DC & Boston and not even that between NY & DC.

Did you go backwards? Called to dinner leaving Baltimore, food arrived at Wilmington, and dessert at Baltimore?

 

[railiner]

I rode the Montrealer several times in the mid 70s and full dining service was available to all in the corridor…….Dinner northbound out of Washington around 5pm and Breakfast southbound from Penn Station at 7am.

 

Montrealer Timetable May 1975

Even today full Diner service is available on all LD trains (except Palmetto) that run on the NEC. However, they are not Corridor Trains.

Back then many LD trains did carry corridor passengers though, unlike today.

If you are going South, you can easily get around the local restriction by booking NYP to ALX, and just detrain at WAS. Going North, however, would require you to board at ALX, unless you book your ticket from there, and "sneak aboard" somehow at WAS....

I believe the fares are usually the same as NYP to WAS fares.....

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Going North, however, would require you to board at ALX, unless you book your ticket from there, and "sneak aboard" somehow at WAS....

I believe the fares are usually the same as NYP to WAS fares.....

Actually ALX is a "Discharge Only" stop for the NYP bound Silvers, Crescent and Cardinal, so you would have to board south or west of ALX to get diner service on them.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

In the summer of 1975 I used to travel between Harrisburg and New York on the weekends. Silverliner to 30th street, then the Merchants Limited to NYP. They had a diner, and I usually had dinner. I would usually go to the diner right before we got to Trenton, and was finished before the train arrived in Newark. Themenu was quite simple, baked fish for $2, baked chicken for $3, and a steal for $8. I think a Big Mac at the time was about 50 cents. The dinner included a salad, rolls, vegetable and potatoes or rice.

i actually don't belive there should be a diner on the NER, except on the 66/67 and 98/99 where it would be fine.

A steal for $8?

I wouldn't mind seeing diners on the following:

Palmetto (They could serve breakfast, lunch and dinner.. The current cafe car service ften runs out of food by the time the train gets to Richmond, i.e. dinner time)

Vermonter

Carolinian

Pennsylvanian

Maple Leaf and Adirondack

Empire service trains NYP -- Niagra Falls

Agreed.