The next train to get a Parlor Car.

[GlobalistPotato]

From what I've seen, Amtrak is interested in ordering more Parlor Cars, similar to the Pacific Parlor Car on the Coast Starlight.

Question is: Which Superliner LD train will get a Parlor Car first?

I think it'd either be the California Zephyr, Empire Builder, or Auto Train. Auto train in particular, because it's considered to be a "premium" train in Amtrak's system.

Considering the limited number of Parlor Cars in the order, I don't expect all Superliner LD trains to get one. Me thinks it will the three trains I listed above.

Also, if Amtrak is ordering new Parlor Cars, then doesn't that mean they'll be able to customize the design of the cars?

If that's the case, what features would you want the Parlor Cars to have? Upper Floor, Lower Floor? Etc?

I'd want a Parlor Car with a dance floor on the lower floor with lights and lasers and all. So we can have a RAVE ON A TRAIN!!!

 

[the_traveler]

I'd want a Parlor Car with a dance floor on the lower floor with lights and lasers and all. So we can have a RAVE ON A TRAIN!!!

I already have that in the penthouse suite!

 

[haolerider]

From what I've seen, Amtrak is interested in ordering more Parlor Cars, similar to the Pacific Parlor Car on the Coast Starlight.

Question is: Which Superliner LD train will get a Parlor Car first?

I think it'd either be the California Zephyr, Empire Builder, or Auto Train. Auto train in particular, because it's considered to be a "premium" train in Amtrak's system.

Considering the limited number of Parlor Cars in the order, I don't expect all Superliner LD trains to get one. Me thinks it will the three trains I listed above.

Also, if Amtrak is ordering new Parlor Cars, then doesn't that mean they'll be able to customize the design of the cars?

If that's the case, what features would you want the Parlor Cars to have? Upper Floor, Lower Floor? Etc?

I'd want a Parlor Car with a dance floor on the lower floor with lights and lasers and all. So we can have a RAVE ON A TRAIN!!!

where in the world did you get this idea? Is there some order that you have seen? The Parlor Cars were custom made on the West Coast years ago and there, in knowledge is no order for new cars. This would be the last thing Amtrak would seem to want when they are trying to get more money from Congress, who are very reluctant to have the impression that Amtrak is a "luxury" tax payer support entity.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Right now, there's no plan to add any Superliners, let alone parlor cars. The Coast Starlight cars are former Santa Fe lounge cars, rescued from the scrap heap by an enterprising Amtrak official. Once they're retired, don't hold your breathe waiting for new ones.

 

[afigg]

where in the world did you get this idea? Is there some order that you have seen? The Parlor Cars were custom made on the West Coast years ago and there, in knowledge is no order for new cars. This would be the last thing Amtrak would seem to want when they are trying to get more money from Congress, who are very reluctant to have the impression that Amtrak is a "luxury" tax payer support entity.

Probably from the recently released V2 of the Amfleet Fleet Strategy plan which discusses the plans to order bi-level cars to begin to replace the Superliner Is. On page 46: "The five Hi-Level cars may not necessarily conform to the plan exactly. Since their design is unique, there may be a longer lead time for the design and construction of their replacements. They presently have the highest priority for replacement, but they will probably be replaced with the first Superliner I cars."

But this poll is way, way ahead of the game. Amtrak has to get enough funding to place a bi-level car order for new LD coaches, sleepers, diners, lounge cars in some sort of joint order with states for bi-level corridor cars. The latest fleet strategy plan indicates that Amtrak is thinking about how to replace the Pacific Parlor cars with something equivalent. But until a Superliner 3 order is actually funded, placed, and Amtrak orders special build cars to replace the Parlor cars, this poll is seriously premature. The odds are that there won't be enough funding to cover the cost of a special order or a company is willing to do a limited production run.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I can see Amtrak taking a "stock" Sightseer Lounge, be it current, Superliner 3 or whatever, and putting a higher end interior in it. That would be an economical way to build a First Class/Sleeper Lounge without having to build an entire special car.

 

[AlanB]

If Amtrak ever does order Parlour cars, the Auto Train will never see them. The AT has no reason for them.

The major reason for a Parlour car is a special sight seeing car for sleeping car passengers.

The Auto Train doesn't have all that much scenery to view in the first place. Second, the Auto Train already has a special lounge car that is exclusively for sleeping car passengers. A special car that also can accomodate overflow seating for the dining car. The AT will simply replace those special lounge cars with new Superliner III lounge cars.

But they will not want a Parlour car similar to the current ones, as the overflow seating area isn't big enough. A true Parlour car modeled more or less on the current one would be useless on the Auto Train. The reasons that it works so well for the Coast Starlight simply don't exist for the AT or are already solved via other methods.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

I can see Amtrak taking a "stock" Sightseer Lounge, be it current, Superliner 3 or whatever, and putting a higher end interior in it. That would be an economical way to build a First Class/Sleeper Lounge without having to build an entire special car.

That's probably what's going to happen. I basically describe a "Parlor Car" as any sort of first-class lounge for sleeper pax.

Actually, I don't think there's an actual order yet; what I was thinking of is Amtrak saying they're going to keep the current PPCs until at least 2017.

 

[railiner]

If there was going to be a first-class only lounge car of some sort--I agree with those thinking of a refurbed SSL, the Capitol Limited route seems like a good candidate to me. First--it's able to run Superliner's, Second, its schedule is somewhat usable by some overnight business travelers, and finally, it does have some nice scenerery at least on its Eastern end.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Actually, I don't think there's an actual order yet; what I was thinking of is Amtrak saying they're going to keep the current PPCs until at least 2017.

Looking at the budget cuts already falling into place, and those that are yet to come, I would not count on Amtrak keeping the current fleet of parlor cars around until 2017. The costs of maintaining them are likely to rise and without any direct revenue to be generated their continued use will be a hard sell to the bean counters. My own guess is that Amtrak may eventually discontinue service on a certain poorly performing non-daily route and exchange the current parlor cars for generic SSL's from that soon to be discontinued (or "suspended") route and henceforth refer to those SSL's as parlor cars. As they are eventually scheduled for heavy maintenance some of the interior accouterments will be upgraded to bring them slightly above the current fast-food style interiors along with some upgraded signage to enhance the appeal.

 

[the_traveler]

Actually, I don't think there's an actual order yet; what I was thinking of is Amtrak saying they're going to keep the current PPCs until at least 2017.

Where did you hear that?

Last I read, the PPC was to be retired in 2012!

 

[Eric S]

Actually, I don't think there's an actual order yet; what I was thinking of is Amtrak saying they're going to keep the current PPCs until at least 2017.

Where did you hear that?

Last I read, the PPC was to be retired in 2012!

The most recent update of Amtrak's fleet replacement plan moved back the expected PPC retirement date.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

If Amtrak ever gets a surplus of lounge cars, the EB is the most likely to get a sleeper only lounge, possibly like a CCC on the Portland section, but that is a pipe dream at this point.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Pacific Parlour Cars are really highlevel lounge cars built for the all coach El Capitain that Santa Fe operated from Chicago to Los Angeles so not as upscale as true Parlor Cars. Up until the time of Amtrak, Espee operated a real Parlour Lounge Observation Car on the Coast Daylight from Los Angeles to San Francisco. When it was still running, the Shasta Daylight from Portland to Oakland carried a Parlor Lounge Observation Cars as well as the Daylight train from Los Angeles via Bakersfield to Oakland. The only service that Amtrak offers that would be similar to Parlor Car service would Acela First Class where meals and beverages are served at your seat which was an option on Parlor Cars. In the early days of Amtrak, Parlor cars were operated on some Northeast Corridor trains plus 2 routes in the midwest.

 

[Ryan]

Actually, I don't think there's an actual order yet; what I was thinking of is Amtrak saying they're going to keep the current PPCs until at least 2017.

Looking at the budget cuts already falling into place, and those that are yet to come, I would not count on Amtrak keeping the current fleet of parlor cars around until 2017. The costs of maintaining them are likely to rise and without any direct revenue to be generated their continued use will be a hard sell to the bean counters.

They're already roughly 60 years old, it isn't like they're going to turn a corner now and suddenly become much more expensive to maintain. They also bring in revenue by virtue of the meals served in them (and until recently the wine tasting as well).

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Actually, I don't think there's an actual order yet; what I was thinking of is Amtrak saying they're going to keep the current PPCs until at least 2017.

Looking at the budget cuts already falling into place, and those that are yet to come, I would not count on Amtrak keeping the current fleet of parlor cars around until 2017. The costs of maintaining them are likely to rise and without any direct revenue to be generated their continued use will be a hard sell to the bean counters.

They're already roughly 60 years old, it isn't like they're going to turn a corner now and suddenly become much more expensive to maintain. They also bring in revenue by virtue of the meals served in them (and until recently the wine tasting as well).

They're also a "spurge magnet", meaning people will buy or upgrade to a sleeper just to experience the PPC, even if they're riding for a short distance like SF to LA. This generates extra sleeping car revenue.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

They're already roughly 60 years old, it isn't like they're going to turn a corner now and suddenly become much more expensive to maintain. They also bring in revenue by virtue of the meals served in them (and until recently the wine tasting as well).

I see what you're saying. I just think back to Amtrak stating that they'd much rather scrap all of these old cars than to even risk a request to transport any of them in the future. That's a pretty strong indication that these cars are on their last legs at this point. Otherwise you'd think they wouldn't be so determined to destroy them before anyone else can do anything with them.

They're also a "spurge magnet", meaning people will buy or upgrade to a sleeper just to experience the PPC, even if they're riding for a short distance like SF to LA. This generates extra sleeping car revenue.

If so many other LD trains can support full or nearly full sleepers without a parlor car then why can't the Coast Starlight? Not to mention that short distance sleeper tickets probably eat into profits more than they support them.

 

[Ryan]

They're already roughly 60 years old, it isn't like they're going to turn a corner now and suddenly become much more expensive to maintain. They also bring in revenue by virtue of the meals served in them (and until recently the wine tasting as well).

I see what you're saying. I just think back to Amtrak stating that they'd much rather scrap all of these old cars than to even risk a request to transport any of them in the future. That's a pretty strong indication that these cars are on their last legs at this point. Otherwise you'd think they wouldn't be so determined to destroy them before anyone else can do anything with them.

True, but if they had any plans on scrapping the cars before 2017, they would not have moved the date from 2012 to 2017 in the recent revision.

I know that it's the height of insanity, but I'd rather take Amtrak at their word than try to read the tea leaves to come up with an alternative outcome.

 

[had8ley]

If Amtrak ever gets a surplus of lounge cars, the EB is the most likely to get a sleeper only lounge, possibly like a CCC on the Portland section, but that is a pipe dream at this point.

Which brings up a very good question for those in the know~ Just how many CCC were converted from diners and how many are actually being used at the present time? There are many talented craftsmen at Beech Grove~ I would think ripping out the booth seating and replacing them with real parlor car seats would be an easy fix to the PPC dilemma~ no new orders to put out RFP's or any money to shell out in comparison to re-furbing, instead of ground up building,new PPC's...make any sense ??? And the downstairs could be converted to storage or a dance studio; it's there for the using...

 

[the_traveler]

They're already roughly 60 years old, it isn't like they're going to turn a corner now and suddenly become much more expensive to maintain. They also bring in revenue by virtue of the meals served in them

They're also a "spurge magnet", meaning people will buy or upgrade to a sleeper just to experience the PPC, even if they're riding for a short distance like SF to LA. This generates extra sleeping car revenue.

short distance sleeper tickets probably eat into profits more than they support them.

While what you say us true, most times, the sleepers on the CS are full departing LAX. They almost empty out by SJC, OKJ or EMY. Then they refill with people connecting off the CZ at either EMY or SAC going north. Thus, the CS sells out the sleepers twice per trip for a 1 night trip!

So how is it "eating into profits"?

Can you name another train that sells out the sleepers twice on a 1 night overnight trip?

 

[Anderson]

I think that if you're going to see "Parlor Cars" on any trains, you'll see them through a new Superliner lounge order...just with two setups ("standard lounge" and "first class lounge/parlor car"). The cars themselves would basically be one order with two setups (the floorplan might be very similar, but you'd likely have a different seat setup)...but you'd need to "bundle" the order together to make it work.

The "bean counter" point is quite valid in the same way that the diners occasionally come under attack for not generating revenue (even though without them, the sleeper service would collapse, and take with it a fair share of the LD train revenue...if not a fair portion of the LD routes, period).

 

[Cristobal]

They're already roughly 60 years old, it isn't like they're going to turn a corner now and suddenly become much more expensive to maintain. They also bring in revenue by virtue of the meals served in them

They're also a "spurge magnet", meaning people will buy or upgrade to a sleeper just to experience the PPC, even if they're riding for a short distance like SF to LA. This generates extra sleeping car revenue.

short distance sleeper tickets probably eat into profits more than they support them.

While what you say us true, most times, the sleepers on the CS are full departing LAX. They almost empty out by SJC, OKJ or EMY. Then they refill with people connecting off the CZ at either EMY or SAC going north. Thus, the CS sells out the sleepers twice per trip for a 1 night trip!

So how is it "eating into profits"?

Can you name another train that sells out the sleepers twice on a 1 night overnight trip?

What?!?! :huh:

Are you saying that I'm not the only one that might ride the CS in a sleeper between SJC and LAX (and back) just to have access to the PPC during the trip?

I'm shocked!!!

Shocked I tell you...

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Haha. I'm sure there are some people who will do that just for the PPC.

It's kinda like people upgrading to FC on the Acela just to have a meal...

 

[railiner]

The Pacific Parlour Cars are really highlevel lounge cars built for the all coach El Capitain that Santa Fe operated from Chicago to Los Angeles so not as upscale as true Parlor Cars. Up until the time of Amtrak, Espee operated a real Parlour Lounge Observation Car on the Coast Daylight from Los Angeles to San Francisco. When it was still running, the Shasta Daylight from Portland to Oakland carried a Parlor Lounge Observation Cars as well as the Daylight train from Los Angeles via Bakersfield to Oakland. The only service that Amtrak offers that would be similar to Parlor Car service would Acela First Class where meals and beverages are served at your seat which was an option on Parlor Cars. In the early days of Amtrak, Parlor cars were operated on some Northeast Corridor trains plus 2 routes in the midwest.

I believe that this definition of 'parlor car' has been discussed here previously, but essentially, you are correct. The original 'parlor car' was a railroad or Pullman Company operated First Class ticket plus seat charge required deluxe revenue reserved chair car for daytime travel. They usually had revolving, reclining extra roomy seats, arranged only one row on each side of the aisle, with a small table that would fold up from the side of the car. They had porter service who would serve beverages and sometimes meals from a small galley or adjacent diner. Some of them had a drawing room that could accommodate 6 or 7 for meetings. Others had a separate non-reserved lounge area, which could be in the form of a 'Skytop' or 'bullet'.

Amtrak's PPC is entirely different, aside from being a Hi-Level. It is a non-revenue lounge car that is reserved for those holding sleeping car accommodations. Someone at Amtrak thought that the name 'parlor car' had a nice 'ring' to it...that it sounded like a 'posh' accommodation, and that it was a long time since anyone traveled in the old definition, so there would be no confusion as to its meaning.

The concept is very nice, and would be great if it were expanded to other routes.

 

[AlanB]

Haha. I'm sure there are some people who will do that just for the PPC.

It's kinda like people upgrading to FC on the Acela just to have a meal...

I don't upgrade to FC for the meal. Yes, that's nice, but hardly the reason that I upgrade.

I upgrade for the single seat, when I'm riding solo. I upgrade for the at seat service. I upgrade for the extra AGR points. I upgrade for the lounge, even though I get that anyhow. And I upgrade for the free booze!