The New Pullman Sleeper prices are now posted

[afigg]

Wow - just imagine, Horse Shoe Curve and rural Pennsylvania. Not to mention, departing NYC and following the Hudson up to Albany. What a ride.

The different route through PA may well be the reason for taking the #30/#42 route. Allows for a round trip between CHI and NYP with much of the daytime portion over different scenery in PA vs NY. They are probably experimenting with it as the longer trip time through PA with the layover in Pittsburgh may not attract as much business as the LSL route.

However, it should be noted that they are not saying anything about the route to be taken in either direction. The CHI-NYP service starts November 1. There is a possibility that Amtrak plans to flip the CL and LSL departures from CHI in the fall schedules, but that because it is not official yet and can't be published, Pullman is using the #30/#42 times as placeholders.

On the cost of the restored cars, checking the one page equipment description, they probably spent a fair amount on upgrading the cars with installation of showers, update to modern safety standards, modern amenities including WiFi, power outlets. With a 2 day a week schedule, they will have time to service the equipment; in Chicago it looks like from the schedule.

As for using this to substitute for an Amtrak sleeper car on the LSL, Pullman is providing a high end niche service. They may well attract clients who would not normally consider taking Amtrak overnight between Chicago & NYC. Different market strategies and segments. A big difference is that Pullman is taking passengers on board only in CHI and NYP. Can't get on Pullman in Albany, Buffalo, or Philly and Pittsburgh. That may be a market mistake on their part to not take on passengers on at least a couple of larger market stops in-between. This is such a different type of sleeper service from Amtrak offers is that it makes no sense for Amtrak to adjust their Viewliner sleeper assignments based on a 2 day week premium service schedule.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Wow - just imagine, Horse Shoe Curve and rural Pennsylvania. Not to mention, departing NYC and following the Hudson up to Albany. What a ride.

The different route through PA may well be the reason for taking the #30/#42 route. Allows for a round trip between CHI and NYP with much of the daytime portion over different scenery in PA vs NY. They are probably experimenting with it as the longer trip time through PA with the layover in Pittsburgh may not attract as much business as the LSL route.

However, it should be noted that they are not saying anything about the route to be taken in either direction. The CHI-NYP service starts November 1. There is a possibility that Amtrak plans to flip the CL and LSL departures from CHI in the fall schedules, but that because it is not official yet and can't be published, Pullman is using the #30/#42 times as placeholders.

On the cost of the restored cars, checking the one page equipment description, they probably spent a fair amount on upgrading the cars with installation of showers, update to modern safety standards, modern amenities including WiFi, power outlets. With a 2 day a week schedule, they will have time to service the equipment; in Chicago it looks like from the schedule.

As for using this to substitute for an Amtrak sleeper car on the LSL, Pullman is providing a high end niche service. They may well attract clients who would not normally consider taking Amtrak overnight between Chicago & NYC. Different market strategies and segments. A big difference is that Pullman is taking passengers on board only in CHI and NYP. Can't get on Pullman in Albany, Buffalo, or Philly and Pittsburgh. That may be a market mistake on their part to not take on passengers on at least a couple of larger market stops in-between. This is such a different type of sleeper service from Amtrak offers is that it makes no sense for Amtrak to adjust their Viewliner sleeper assignments based on a 2 day week premium service schedule.

It could be that Amtrak is restricting them from picking up or leaving off passengers along the way, treating the enterprise as a private car move.

 

[Ispolkom]

It could be that Amtrak is restricting them from picking up or leaving off passengers along the way, treating the enterprise as a private car move.

In my very limited experience with private varnish, there's never been a problem if passengers in the private car had to leave the train at an intermediate destination.

 

[Anderson]

It could be that Amtrak is restricting them from picking up or leaving off passengers along the way, treating the enterprise as a private car move.

In my very limited experience with private varnish, there's never been a problem if passengers in the private car had to leave the train at an intermediate destination.

I think Pullman may be trying to avoid some headaches with their staff to begin with, as well as some technical issues. Remember, there are plenty of stations that a 10-car LSL tests the limits of the platform on, and a 15-car LSL+Pullman would hang off the end of all but the longest platforms regularly maintained anymore (witness the degraded platform ends in parts of Florida and the Carolinas, for example). It's quite possible that Amtrak is willing to be flexible but that they also put their foot down on making any extra spots.

And finally, I think it is fair to say that if the train is following two different routes (by ALB one way and by PHL the other), offering intermediate destinations seems like a headache. WB, the only pickups/EB dropoffs I could see them wanting to fiddle with would be ALB (to pick up BOS and ALB traffic) on the Water Level Route or PHL (and maybe HAR) on the Pennsy Main Line. Even PGH seems to be rather lacking given the times involved and all. And if they're following two different routes (honestly, they may not even know...but let's not forget how dubious all of the EB times are out of CHI because of the forced late arrivals), then intermediate destinations would be just asking for trouble.

I'd point out that the CONO doesn't have any major intermediate stops other than Memphis (at least outside of IL), and I can see them simply deciding (at this stage, at least) that Memphis isn't worth the hassle.

Edit: I'm sure that there is some sort of change coming to the Cap's schedule, be it the addition of the through cars or a time switch, with the fall schedule. Just what that switch is remains a mystery, however.

 

[dlagrua]

I have spoken to Pullman and they are marketing their service as a "rail experience" rather than trying to market it as rail transportation. For instance their dining car will have three chefs and the interior appointments will be more lavish than what we have on Amtrak. They do not see this as "head to head" competition but for a $1600 to $2000 one way trip for two I'd have trouble justifying the expenditure. If you've ever seen the trains of old the bedrooms were really not that much different than what we have on Amtrak today ( and showers were almost never in the bedrooms). What you get for a $2000 overnight trip is essentially a 3 unit train with a nicer interior, more porters and better food. We are considering the service but for an overnight trip that's only "point to point" it sounds very inconvenient.

 

[Anderson]

I have spoken to Pullman and they are marketing their service as a "rail experience" rather than trying to market it as rail transportation. For instance their dining car will have three chefs and the interior appointments will be more lavish than what we have on Amtrak. They do not see this as "head to head" competition but for a $1600 to $2000 one way trip for two I'd have trouble justifying the expenditure. If you've ever seen the trains of old the bedrooms were really not that much different than what we have on Amtrak today ( and showers were almost never in the bedrooms). What you get for a $2000 overnight trip is essentially a 3 unit train with a nicer interior, more porters and better food. We are considering the service but for an overnight trip that's only "point to point" it sounds very inconvenient.

Here's the thing: What they're doing is an interesting, functional hybrid of the two. It's not one of those seven-day rail trips from Washington to New Orleans that AOE did...but it's certainly more than just "transportation". I would categorize it as "luxury transportation" in the vein of FC on an airline (well, at one time at least) or...well, the old 20th Century/Broadway-type markets...cost-wise it isn't practical for day-to-day travel, but it can work for something in that vein. It's not something that I could afford to do on a frequent basis. Once a year, though, it might fit into the budget (especially if Amtrak is either sold out or running in the top bucket that day/week).

This is just a random aside, but all of the old fare charts I've seen tend to focus on UP or ATSF...what would a one-way on the Broadway or 20th Century have been in the late 50s/early 60s, assuming New York-Chicago?

 

[Railroad Bill]

It could be that Amtrak is restricting them from picking up or leaving off passengers along the way, treating the enterprise as a private car move.

In my very limited experience with private varnish, there's never been a problem if passengers in the private car had to leave the train at an intermediate destination.

I think Pullman may be trying to avoid some headaches with their staff to begin with, as well as some technical issues. Remember, there are plenty of stations that a 10-car LSL tests the limits of the platform on, and a 15-car LSL+Pullman would hang off the end of all but the longest platforms regularly maintained anymore (witness the degraded platform ends in parts of Florida and the Carolinas, for example). It's quite possible that Amtrak is willing to be flexible but that they also put their foot down on making any extra spots.

Hey--We have a super long platform in Cleveland-- :giggle: I am all for a flag stop in CLE and we will be at the station waiting :giggle:

And finally, I think it is fair to say that if the train is following two different routes (by ALB one way and by PHL the other), offering intermediate destinations seems like a headache. WB, the only pickups/EB dropoffs I could see them wanting to fiddle with would be ALB (to pick up BOS and ALB traffic) on the Water Level Route or PHL (and maybe HAR) on the Pennsy Main Line. Even PGH seems to be rather lacking given the times involved and all. And if they're following two different routes (honestly, they may not even know...but let's not forget how dubious all of the EB times are out of CHI because of the forced late arrivals), then intermediate destinations would be just asking for trouble.

I'd point out that the CONO doesn't have any major intermediate stops other than Memphis (at least outside of IL), and I can see them simply deciding (at this stage, at least) that Memphis isn't worth the hassle.

Edit: I'm sure that there is some sort of change coming to the Cap's schedule, be it the addition of the through cars or a time switch, with the fall schedule. Just what that switch is remains a mystery, however.

 

[Ispolkom]

This is just a random aside, but all of the old fare charts I've seen tend to focus on UP or ATSF...what would a one-way on the Broadway or 20th Century have been in the late 50s/early 60s, assuming New York-Chicago?

Streamliner Schedules has some fare charts.

 

[Lawdude]

The fares charged for this service (which seem fair to me given what is being offered) should give some indication of the actual subsidy received by sleeping car passengers on Amtrak (just estimate what you think the additional amenities cost, subtract that, and compare the result to the average cost of a sleeper on Amtrak on a comparable routing).

 

[dlagrua]

The fares charged for this service (which seem fair to me given what is being offered) should give some indication of the actual subsidy received by sleeping car passengers on Amtrak (just estimate what you think the additional amenities cost, subtract that, and compare the result to the average cost of a sleeper on Amtrak on a comparable routing).

The only reason for the subsidy is because Amtrak has decided to spend more money than it takes in, a common problem throughout government.

 

[Anderson]

lspolkom: That covers the WAS-NYP section of things. It's a nice comparison for some purposes (and I may need to go through and compare numbers to the Regionals and Acela), but it doesn't apply to the east-west runs in the same way.

Lawdude: It's a mediocre comparison...if for no other reason than the extra OBSassenger proportions. From what I'm gathering, you've basically got about double the OBS as Amtrak does serving fewer passengers. And I sadly lack the ability to guess at what that cost would come to.

Edit: Though, making an honest guess, I suspect that top bucket is a bit more than what would be break even with Amtrak. If I had to take a guess, and I base this in part on my Silver Service analysis, break-even for a full train would probably be somewhere between third and fourth buckets if you could max out your sleeper:diner ratio and allow for the presence of a cafe/lounge/bar car. Do note, for example, that Pullman's B/C/D accommodation prices all cluster pretty closely together for a single traveler while you get a good deal more separation on Amtrak between levels of service.

 

[Ispolkom]

lspolkom: That covers the WAS-NYP section of things. It's a nice comparison for some purposes (and I may need to go through and compare numbers to the Regionals and Acela), but it doesn't apply to the east-west runs in the same way.

Wrong link, sorry. There's a Pennsylvania fare chart for 1967 that covers New York - Chicago, and several B&O charts covering Washington - Chicago. I'd imagine that the Capitol Limited cost in the same neighborhood as the Broadway Limited.

Streamliner Schedules is the first place to look for any information about post-WW2 crack trains.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

BTW, guys, I found this site for measuring money value from previous years: http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/

 

[Anderson]

lspolkom: Thanks for the other link; that one is actually right about what I needed (though it doesn't indicate any extra fares, sadly...but those often wound up being relatively small in the grand scheme of things).

Swadian: Thanks for the link; I've used them in the past, but it was really nice to have the link here in this thread so I could go "right in".

So, running with that chart, I get the following:

Pennsylvania Railroad, June 1967 versus 2011; Extra Fare not listed

CPI=Consumer Price Index (i.e. the government-selected goods backet)

LC=Labor Cost for a production worker

IV=Income Value, or share of per capita GDP

In a Roomette:

CHI-NYP: $83.99 equals $566.00 (CPI), $686.00 (LC), or $970.00 (IV)

CHI-PHL: $76.21 equals $513.00 (CPI), $623.00 (LC), or $880.00 (IV)

CHI-WAS: $72.49 equals $488.00 (CPI), $592.00 (LC), or $837.00 (IV)

Pullman Sleeping Car Equivalent: $900/$1050 for one person.

In a Duplex Room:

CHI-NYP: $87.40 equals $589.00 (CPI), $714.00 (LC), or $1,010.00 (IV)

CHI-PHL: $79.62 equals $536.00 (CPI), $650.00 (LC), or $920.00 (IV)

CHI-WAS: $75.90 equals $511.00 (CPI), $620.00 (LC), or $877.00 (IV)

Pullman Sleeping Car Equivalent: $900/$1050 for one person.

In a Bedroom (one person):

CHI-NYP: $95.63 equals $644.00 (CPI), $781.00 (LC), or $1,100.00 (IV)

CHI-PHL: $87.32 equals $588.00 (CPI), $713.00 (LC), or $1,010.00 (IV)

CHI-WAS: $83.60 equals $563.00 (CPI), $683.00 (LC), or $966.00 (IV)

Pullman Sleeping Car Equivalent: $1050 for one person.

In a Bedroom (two people):

CHI-NYP: $163.01 equals $1,100.00 (CPI), $1,330.00 (LC), or $1,880.00 (IV)

CHI-PHL: $148.24 equals $988.00 (CPI), $1,210.00 (LC), or $1,710,00 (IV)

CHI-WAS: $140.80 equals $948.00 (CPI), $1,150.00 (LC), or $1,630.00 (IV)

Pullman Sleeping Car Equivalent: $1650/$1950 for two people.

For calculating any extra fare:

CPI Multiplier is approximately 6.74

LC Multiplier is approximately 8.17

IV Multiplier is approximately 11.55

I would include the Master Room/Drawing Room fares ($1050/$1500 for one and $1950/$2850 for two), but those are really off the charts even compared to the old rates because of how much of the fare was "locked up" in the coach charge versus the room charge (a drawing room was an extra $13.50 over a bedroom; a Master Room was $23.25).

 

[dlagrua]

lspolkom: Thanks for the other link; that one is actually right about what I needed (though it doesn't indicate any extra fares, sadly...but those often wound up being relatively small in the grand scheme of things).

Swadian: Thanks for the link; I've used them in the past, but it was really nice to have the link here in this thread so I could go "right in".

So, running with that chart, I get the following:

Pennsylvania Railroad, June 1967 versus 2011; Extra Fare not listed

CPI=Consumer Price Index (i.e. the government-selected goods backet)

LC=Labor Cost for a production worker

IV=Income Value, or share of per capita GDP

In a Roomette:

CHI-NYP: $83.99 equals $566.00 (CPI), $686.00 (LC), or $970.00 (IV)

CHI-PHL: $76.21 equals $513.00 (CPI), $623.00 (LC), or $880.00 (IV)

CHI-WAS: $72.49 equals $488.00 (CPI), $592.00 (LC), or $837.00 (IV)

Pullman Sleeping Car Equivalent: $900/$1050 for one person.

In a Duplex Room:

CHI-NYP: $87.40 equals $589.00 (CPI), $714.00 (LC), or $1,010.00 (IV)

CHI-PHL: $79.62 equals $536.00 (CPI), $650.00 (LC), or $920.00 (IV)

CHI-WAS: $75.90 equals $511.00 (CPI), $620.00 (LC), or $877.00 (IV)

Pullman Sleeping Car Equivalent: $900/$1050 for one person.

In a Bedroom (one person):

CHI-NYP: $95.63 equals $644.00 (CPI), $781.00 (LC), or $1,100.00 (IV)

CHI-PHL: $87.32 equals $588.00 (CPI), $713.00 (LC), or $1,010.00 (IV)

CHI-WAS: $83.60 equals $563.00 (CPI), $683.00 (LC), or $966.00 (IV)

Pullman Sleeping Car Equivalent: $1050 for one person.

In a Bedroom (two people):

CHI-NYP: $163.01 equals $1,100.00 (CPI), $1,330.00 (LC), or $1,880.00 (IV)

CHI-PHL: $148.24 equals $988.00 (CPI), $1,210.00 (LC), or $1,710,00 (IV)

CHI-WAS: $140.80 equals $948.00 (CPI), $1,150.00 (LC), or $1,630.00 (IV)

Pullman Sleeping Car Equivalent: $1650/$1950 for two people.

For calculating any extra fare:

CPI Multiplier is approximately 6.74

LC Multiplier is approximately 8.17

IV Multiplier is approximately 11.55

I would include the Master Room/Drawing Room fares ($1050/$1500 for one and $1950/$2850 for two), but those are really off the charts even compared to the old rates because of how much of the fare was "locked up" in the coach charge versus the room charge (a drawing room was an extra $13.50 over a bedroom; a Master Room was $23.25).

Did you use all high bucket fares as the basis for comparison? In the 1960's the minimum wage was about $1.00 per hour. Let us not forget that fares back then did not include any meals. I will attempt to dig up some more fare info. I recall seeing an ad from the 60's in which the NYC advertised that their single duplex roomettes cost only $7 more than coach fare. Not to doubt you but your fare comparison seems hard to believe.

 

[Trogdor]

The only reason for the subsidy is because Amtrak has decided to spend more money than it takes in, a common problem throughout government.

Overly simplistic analysis (that it was Amtrak's "decision" to lose money), especially from someone who whines to no end about how expensive Amtrak's sleepers are.

The reason for the subsidy is that the cost of providing the service exceeds what the market will pay in fare revenues, yet society still deems it an important service to provide. That's one of the purposes of government.

 

[jis]

The only reason for the subsidy is because Amtrak has decided to spend more money than it takes in, a common problem throughout government.

Overly simplistic analysis (that it was Amtrak's "decision" to lose money), especially from someone who whines to no end about how expensive Amtrak's sleepers are.

The reason for the subsidy is that the cost of providing the service exceeds what the market will pay in fare revenues, yet society still deems it an important service to provide. That's one of the purposes of government.

Indeed. We pretty much know that if Amtrak could simply double LD fares without losing ridership, it would come very close to breaking even or becoming slightly positive. And then we would have the whiners whine at four times the volume following the Law of Exponential Whine Intensity. On the NEC Amtrak has pretty much achieved that balance. At the end of the day RASM has to be equal to or greater than CASM for an operation to survive long term, whatever the source of said revenue.

At least the airlines have finally learned that lesson and are working towards ensuring a level of revenues that can sustain the service reasonably, even though with somewhat lower growth in ridership.. And my oh my - the whines that it is eliciting! Fortunately, each time airlines raise fare, and gasoline prices go up, Amtrak gets some leeway to raise fares and get to a more sustainable financial situation, taking advantage of the inherent energy efficiency of steel wheel on steel rail.

 

[afigg]

Did you use all high bucket fares as the basis for comparison? In the 1960's the minimum wage was about $1.00 per hour. Let us not forget that fares back then did not include any meals. I will attempt to dig up some more fare info. I recall seeing an ad from the 60's in which the NYC advertised that their single duplex roomettes cost only $7 more than coach fare. Not to doubt you but your fare comparison seems hard to believe.

If I'm reading his post correctly, he was using PRR stated prices in 1967. Back then, there was far less price variations in ticket prices for travel, be it by air or train. It was before the age of computer databases and on-line purchases which allowed the airlines, Amtrak, hotel chains, etc to evolve a complex system of bucket prices, discounts, frequent flyer/travel point programs, constant changing of prices to reflect demand for revenue enhancement. Makes it far easier to project a typical 1967 price to today dollars than it will be to compare 2012 prices to 2057 prices in 2057.

Minimum wage in 1967 versus today is not a valid price comparison because minimum wage is set as the result of a political process. CPI or even IC that Anderson used provides a far more valid price comparison. Overall, travel costs have drop markedly since the 1960s. Far more people per capita travel distances for vacations, family visits, tourist trips, and business trips than they did 50 years ago. The airlines, Amtrak, bus companies have all reduced costs, eliminated staff, shrunk overhead, increased operating efficiencies to make for lower ticket prices from 1967 to 2012, once overall inflation is adjusted for.

I really don't see the issue. There have been multiple price comparisons posted here and on other forums that show that coach and sleeper prices on Amtrak are for the average person lower than they were in 1950s and 60s. Even after the Amtrak price increases of the past several years. The Pullman prices wll be roughly equivalent to the 1960s prices, because Pullman will be providing a high end luxury service with high staff costs.

 

[dlagrua]

I will be fair about the cost comparison. In 1971 a total Amtrak roomette fare from NYC to Chicago was $98.11 one way (source Amtrak fare book). In 2012 dollars that is $566.30. If we combine the coach fares to today's roomette prices, this comes out at approximately Amtrak high bucket. Conclusion: prices have held pretty much constant with inflation, which over that period averaged about 4.2%. Amtrak Sleepers are not more expensive than they were in 1971.

Inflation calculator is here:

Inflation calculator

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I just found this link with New York Central timetables from 1871-1968. I think that there are also fares inside. http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/ptt/timetables.htm

 

[white rabbitt]

ya'll must be rich if u are being serious to want to waste money haveing a gathering on pullman train couse only rich folk can afford those prices the hoi polloi and the peons cant afford pullmans

 

[CHamilton]

ya'll must be rich if u are being serious to want to waste money haveing a gathering on pullman train couse only rich folk can afford those prices the hoi polloi and the peons cant afford pullmans

I suspect that AUers have a range of incomes. I know that there are lots of retired people and students with limited incomes. But some of us would rather spend money traveling, and skimp on other expenses. I, for one, don't own a car, so even with taking the occasional train trip, my total transportation expenses are actually less than for many people.

 

[dlagrua]

ya'll must be rich if u are being serious to want to waste money haveing a gathering on pullman train couse only rich folk can afford those prices the hoi polloi and the peons cant afford pullmans

The Pullman trips are being marketed as upscale rail accommodations to "white collar" professional people, corporate executives and small business owners. Its like anything else first class....airlines, designer clothing, Mercedes/BMW Automobiles, upscale restaurants, gold and diamond jewelry etc. They are all expensive and made for those that can afford them.There is apparently a select audience for a $1500 to $1800 rail fare. We'll see. Quite frankly Amtrak on the wrong day of the week can be expensive as well. Our trip on the Autotrain North the week of May 7th is costing us $760.00 one way. The final few remaining bedrooms sold for $860 plus coach and auto fare. That's about a $1200 to $1300 fare. We won't pay that much as we don't believe that riding in a well used "cubical" is worth that much money but some people hard up for the trip North did.

IMO the main disadvantage to the new Pullman service is their point to point service. Passengers are only allowed to board at the departure and destination points. Will this be a limitation? Time will tell.

 

[Donctor]

I have read that, toward the end, New York–Chicago and Chicago–New Orleans were the two big long-distance markets for business travelers. Was this the case?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I have read that, toward the end, New York–Chicago and Chicago–New Orleans were the two big long-distance markets for business travelers. Was this the case?

I guess that if there was a 16 hour schedule and proper marketing, these routes would still have quite some biz travellers. But even with the current schedule, they are still getting sold out.