New Haven - Springfield line Expanded Service Details

[cpotisch]

Here is one detail that was left out: ADA compliance for the bathrooms. Until they comply, no one will have access to the facilities.

Hartford Line's CTrail Trains To Run Without Bathrooms After ADA Complaint

The DOT said the FRA agreed in November to allow the department to use the coaches without the accessible bathrooms in the interim period until new bathrooms were installed.

A member of the disability community brought the issue to the organization’s attention, said executive director Gretchen Knauff. Her complaint contends that the state’s current proposed solution — placing accessible, portable bathrooms at train stations — “fails to address the lack of accessible bathrooms on the trains.”

“Our objective isn’t to deny everybody the use of a bathroom,” Knauff said Tuesday. “It’s just to make sure there is a substantially equal opportunity for people with disabilities to use a bathroom.”The DOT has installed fully accessible portable restrooms at five Hartford Line stations that did not have them — Berlin, Meriden, Wallingford, Windsor and Windsor Locks — and new signs that make clear which cars will have available restrooms.

Despite the lack of bathrooms, the DOT said they do not expect the FRA’s decision to significantly reduce the number of travelers on the new line.“We do not expect a significant impact on ridership, as this will be only temporary. But of course, time will tell,” the DOT said Tuesday. All Amtrak trains — which comprise half of the Hartford Line — have on-board, accessible restrooms available for passengers to use during their trips.

Commissioner James Redeker said in a news release that the DOT planned to modify the bathrooms of the older coaches Connecticut is leasing from Massachusetts for the Hartford Line. In the meantime, the FRA approved an interim ADA “exception in the regulations for older coaches in intercity service,” the news release said.“However, the FRA reversed this decision days before the launch of the Hartford Line, and the bathrooms must now remain locked until the modifications are complete and one accessible restroom per consist is available,” the release said.

I sort of get where they're coming from, and I feel for disabled passengers who are affected, but that just seems ridiculous to me. I feel like the disabled passengers who are actually affected are probably a lot more reasonable than the people advocating for them.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Perhaps a mixed consist is the answer. if the equipment is compatible and the price is the same, put an Amtrak car in each consist. Take a car from the new service and add it to the Amtrak train. That would help with at least three sets.

 

[daybeers]

Perhaps a mixed consist is the answer. if the equipment is compatible and the price is the same, put an Amtrak car in each consist. Take a car from the new service and add it to the Amtrak train. That would help with at least three sets.

That would defeat the purpose of CDOT spending all that money to repaint the "new" leased coaches from the MBTA and their locomotives [emoji1]

 

[fairviewroad]

Nice that the ADA advocates are so reasonable.

I agree. Lobbying for accessible bathrooms is a very reasonable course of action.

 

[lordsigma]

Perhaps a mixed consist is the answer. if the equipment is compatible and the price is the same, put an Amtrak car in each consist. Take a car from the new service and add it to the Amtrak train. That would help with at least three sets.

Sounds like a good idea so there's no way it would ever happen. This all would have been a lot simpler if Amtrak had won the bid for operating the CTrail trains.

 

[PVD]

ADA has been around for a very long time and there really isn't a valid excuse to try and get around it. Instead of blaming people who are forced to take action because of the incompetence of others ask why they didn't have appropriate cars ready in the first place. It's not like this project moved at break neck speed and is ahead of schedule. It happened because CT and the FRA thought they could get away with it.

 

[Thirdrail7]

ADA has been around for a very long time and there really isn't a valid excuse to try and get around it. Instead of blaming people who are forced to take action because of the incompetence of others ask why they didn't have appropriate cars ready in the first place. It's not like this project moved at break neck speed and is ahead of schedule. It happened because CT and the FRA thought they could get away with it.

Because they are leasing old cars from another operator that weren't equipped and the FRA had given them a waiver? Realistically, no one can use the bathroom at this point.

If I'm CTtrails, I would treat the new service like SEPTA and keep them permanently locked.

 

[Anderson]

I'm going to admit that, having been on the first (media) run today, I'd rather like to offer some choice words for that member of the disability community. If nothing else, stuff like this gives the ADA a bad name and is a poster child for why my support for the law is quite heavily qualified. The fact that the FRA was able to just up and reverse course on their waiver 2-3 days before the start of service is particularly galling.

I hate to endorse vandalism, but the first time one of those trains ends up stuck because of an "incident" somewhere I'd sure like to see those locks get picked and broken.

As to Amtrak not getting the project, IIRC the fundamental problem is Amtrak's overhead issues.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I just wonder what keeping everyone from using the bathroom accomplishes.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

It forces CTrail to rush the bathroom overhaul, if they just left it pending there would be no way of enforcing.

Although FRA has to approve the cars, they are not the agency that can waiver the ADA requirements.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=49:1.0.1.1.28&idno=49#sp49.1.38.e

§38.107 Restrooms.(a) If a restroom is provided for the general public, it shall be designed so as to allow a person using a wheelchair or mobility aid to enter and use such restroom as specified in paragraphs (a) (1) through (5) of this section.

(1) The minimum clear floor area shall be 35 inches by 60 inches. Permanently installed fixtures may overlap this area a maximum of 6 inches, if the lowest portion of the fixture is a minimum of 9 inches above the floor, and may overlap a maximum of 19 inches, if the lowest portion of the fixture is a minimum of 29 inches above the floor, provided such fixtures do not interfere with access to the water closet. Fold-down or retractable seats or shelves may overlap the clear floor space at a lower height provided they can be easily folded up or moved out of the way.

(2) The height of the water closet shall be 17 inches to 19 inches measured to the top of the toilet seat. Seats shall not be sprung to return to a lifted position.

(3) A grab bar at least 24 inches long shall be mounted behind the water closet, and a horizontal grab bar at least 40 inches long shall be mounted on at least one side wall, with one end not more than 12 inches from the back wall, at a height between 33 inches and 36 inches above the floor.

(4) Faucets and flush controls shall be operable with one hand and shall not require tight grasping, pinching, or twisting of the wrist. The force required to activate controls shall be no greater than 5 lbf (22.2 N). Controls for flush valves shall be mounted no more than 44 inches above the floor.

(5) Doorways on the end of the enclosure, opposite the water closet, shall have a minimum clear opening width of 32 inches. Doorways on the side wall shall have a minimum clear opening width of 39 inches. Door latches and hardware shall be operable with one hand and shall not require tight grasping, pinching, or twisting of the wrist.

(b) Restrooms required to be accessible shall be in close proximity to at least one seating location for persons using mobility aids and shall be connected to such a space by an unobstructed path having a minimum width of 32 inches.

 

[Thirdrail7]

It forces CTrail to rush the bathroom overhaul, if they just left it pending there would be no way of enforcing.

Although FRA has to approve the cars, they are not the agency that can waiver the ADA requirements.

Dutch,

I thought that only applied to equipment after a certain date. Cars prior to the date are grandfathered in. One only needs to look at the NJT ARROWs to know they do not meet this criteria.

If they aren't grandfathered, who can allow a waiver?

Additionally, it may be easier to not offer bathrooms to anyone. Lock them permanently and save the expense of the modifications and maintenance. Follow the advice of my mother: go before you leave the house...unless you've eaten tacos or beans. Then don't leave the house!!

Yes, my mom gave advice like that. She was cool..in an odd, off key way.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

these cars were officially retired, CDOT got cheap ass deal on cars that now need to be compliant due to re-introduction of these cars.

not providing bathrooms is not conducive to service since total travel time is 80 minutes, and also crews will need a bathroom .

 

[PVD]

Hopefully, enough people will be upset enough to hold the people accountable who failed to manage the project properly.

 

[lordsigma]

Took ctrail to new haven today. Pretty good turnout for free weekend. They filled the train up and had to turn people away in Hartford.

 

[lordsigma]

Amtrak using a shore line east trainset for shuttle 464 today due to the free weekend.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Hopefully, enough people will be upset enough to hold the people accountable who failed to manage the project properly.

I doubt it will happen. CDOT tried to cut corners and save money and got caught. I don't know if they got a waiver for the coach cars from the FRA or not. It does not really matter as ADA law overrules government agency decisions if found to be in violation. And this does seem to be in clear violation of the ADA as it is a new service. How did CDOT ever think they could be exempt? And why would they spend all that money to upgrade the track to 90 or 110 mph MAS if the rolling stock is only permitted to run at 80 mph? There need to be serious questions asked of the government of CT.

It only takes a quick comparison with Brightline here in Florida to understand why so many do not trust government to spend tax money wisely. It was announced today that Brightline will be ramping up to full service in 7 weeks. 16 round trips per day. They have done it the smart way. Gradually build up service and get it right the first time! And don't go cheap.

Do any government agencies have a "lessons learned" session at the end of each project as we do here in the private sector?

 

[keelhauled]

And why would they spend all that money to upgrade the track to 90 or 110 mph MAS if the rolling stock is only permitted to run at 80 mph?

The coaches leased from Massachusetts are limited to 80 MPH. Amtrak trains are allowed 110.

 

[Brian_tampa]

And why would they spend all that money to upgrade the track to 90 or 110 mph MAS if the rolling stock is only permitted to run at 80 mph?

The coaches leased from Massachusetts are limited to 80 MPH. Amtrak trains are allowed 110.

I know that. I'm just saying that the service provided by CT DOT will not be able to utilize the MAS that they spent tax money on. My question is why did CT DOT allow this to happen along with the defective ADA non compliant coach cars? This whole thing reeks of incompetence at the state level government level. And why do the residents of CT allow this to happen?

 

[John Bredin]

Why is it incompetent for a state dep't of transportation, responsible for investing in ALL modes of transportation in the state, to speed up intercity trains used by people from that state?! Are you under the impression the new commuter trains are only for Connecticutters and the Amtrak trains are only for out-of-staters?

I don't think Metra trains can exceed 80mph, but I wouldn't consider IDOT incompetent if they spent money to increase the speed of the Hiawathas on the Metra Milwaukee-North or the Lincoln Service on the Metra Heritage Corridor even though the Metras running alongside the Amtraks couldn't take full advantage of it. Far from incompetent, in fact.

 

[jis]

Yeah, using the term "incompetent" in this context is a bit over the top IMHO. This is currently a temporary arrangement anyway. The plan is to rotate the Shore Line East equipment to his service when the new EMUs take over the Shore Line East service. That is awaiting completion of high level platforms on the second track at a few places and electrification of platform tracks at a few other stations.

The choice was between starting service at 80mph to everything else that was ready for service, using borrowed equipment , or delay service introduction until the last few pieces fell in place. I think they made the right choice on the whole, even if it meant no toilets for a little while. Apparently once you get to the real users of the systems and away from the armchair prognosticators here, things appear to be more or less OK.

 

[lordsigma]

And why would they spend all that money to upgrade the track to 90 or 110 mph MAS if the rolling stock is only permitted to run at 80 mph?

The coaches leased from Massachusetts are limited to 80 MPH. Amtrak trains are allowed 110.

I know that. I'm just saying that the service provided by CT DOT will not be able to utilize the MAS that they spent tax money on. My question is why did CT DOT allow this to happen along with the defective ADA non compliant coach cars? This whole thing reeks of incompetence at the state level government level. And why do the residents of CT allow this to happen?

Should also note that it IS benefiting CT DOT's service. As you probably know the Hartford Line is currently using a dual service provider model with the Amtrak trains providing half of the Hartford Line service and more than half of the service north of Hartford. The CTrail trains basically fill in the gaps in the Amtrak schedule to build a usable commuter rail service. So by speeding up the Amtrak trains they are speeding up half of the Hartford line trains.

 

[cpotisch]

Sorry if I missed this, but are Amtrak and CTDOT cross honoring tickets? Or at least allowing passengers to book Amtrak Shuttle tickets through CTDOT and vice versa? The New Haven-Springfield Shuttle isn't unreserved though, so would that even be possible? Sorry if this is obvious or already answered.

 

[daybeers]

Sorry if I missed this, but are Amtrak and CTDOT cross honoring tickets? Or at least allowing passengers to book Amtrak Shuttle tickets through CTDOT and vice versa? The New Haven-Springfield Shuttle isn't unreserved though, so would that even be possible? Sorry if this is obvious or already answered.

Yup, see this page. It's one ticket, any train, except for the Vermonter. Amtrak has lowered its fares to match the CTrail prices.

 

[lordsigma]

I observed the process yesterday on train 417. Amtrak conductors scan the Ctrail tickets like they do their own and then tear off and take the stub. Ctrail trains will also honor Amtrak tickets up to two hours after the departure of the train listed on the Amtrak ticket. The Amtrak tickets are still subject to normal rules - IE you must board the train number your ticket says and to change it you have to modify the ticket online or thru an agent. However because the Shuttle fares now have no buckets it’s just a matter of calling or going to a window or adjusting it online there won’t be a charge. I would imagine in the event of a packed train reserved Amtrak ticket holders have priority over CTrail but I would imagine we are a little ways from that being a problem ( other than the free opening weekend that just occurred.) Supposedly all the fares collected by CTrail and by Amtrak ticket sales for SPG-NHV service now go into a common pool and the fares are divied up based on a process that they agreed to.

 

[fairviewroad]

I observed the process yesterday on train 417. Amtrak conductors scan the Ctrail tickets like they do their own and then tear off and take the stub. Ctrail trains will also honor Amtrak tickets up to two hours after the departure of the train listed on the Amtrak ticket. The Amtrak tickets are still subject to normal rules - IE you must board the train number your ticket says and to change it you have to modify the ticket online or thru an agent. However because the Shuttle fares now have no buckets it’s just a matter of calling or going to a window or adjusting it online there won’t be a charge. I would imagine in the event of a packed train reserved Amtrak ticket holders have priority over CTrail but I would imagine we are a little ways from that being a problem ( other than the free opening weekend that just occurred.) Supposedly all the fares collected by CTrail and by Amtrak ticket sales for SPG-NHV service now go into a common pool and the fares are divied up based on a process that they agreed to.

Seems unnecessarily complicated. You'd think Amtrak would go to an unreserved model for NHV-SPG. Doesn't seem to be any point in keeping that route reserved anymore.