Longest Amtrak train

[afigg]

How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.

Amtrak had this large pool of Heritage equipment in the 80s and early 90s that has been steadily retired for a variety of reasons, including the difficulties and costs of converting the toilet facilities and bringing the equipment into compliance with modern requirements. The original plan was to order a large fleet of modular Viewliners, including an order for 100 Viewliner sleepers. Well, that order was cut to 50 sleepers because of funding problems which has left Amtrak with the capacity shortage they now have for the remaining eastern LD trains. Wikipedia provides an overview of the Viewliner history, although I can not vouch for its complete accuracy. There are those on here who can provide a much more complete and detailed blow by blow history.

What would be interesting is to see what the ridership and sleeper passenger numbers were back in the 70s to the 90s in some detail for the Silver service trains to Florida. With the extra fleet capacity, Amtrak would have been able to provide a bunch of additional cars for the peak travel seasons. The 130 car CAF Viewliner order will provide some additional capacity, but not enough to run really long trains with 2 or more diners - if the demand is still there for that many sleeper rooms. The 120 Amfleet II LD coach cars are a capacity constraint for the eastern LD trains that has not yet been addressed.

 

[jis]

How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.

In general Amtrak ridership back in those days was much lower than it is now. I don't know what Silver Star ridership was back then. Trains are generally shorter now due to lack of available equipment to make them longer.

 

[afigg]

In general Amtrak ridership back in those days was much lower than it is now. I don't know what Silver Star ridership was back then. Trains are generally shorter now due to lack of available equipment to make them longer.

The largest portion of the growth in ridership in the past 10 years has come from state supported and short distance corridors. In Amtrak's press release announcing the record FY11 ridership numbers, they break the ridership numbers for each FY back to FY00 by NEC, State supported and Short Distance, and LD categories. In FY00, LD trains carried in 4.02 million, dropped to a low of 3.73 million in FY06 (after cutbacks), then grew to 4.52 million in FY11. All this tells us is that there has not been a huge increase in total LD train ridership in the past 11 years. Meanwhile State-supported and Short-Distance category grew from 8.58 million in FY00 to 14.76 million in FY11.

Would be useful to see what the annual and, even better, the monthly ridership numbers were for the different LD trains going back to the 1970s. Somebody outside of Amtrak- NARP? - likely has that data or at least summaries of it. The monthly numbers for the Silvers would show how much seasonal variation there was back then that may now be lost business because of the lack of "surge" fleet capacity.

On the subject of a really long Silver Star or Meteor as shown in the video, I'm curious if those trains had to double stop at most stations on the trip? WAS could handle it, but that would be one long walk from the front of the train on the lower level track platforms to the stairs leading to Union Station. Is there a station information resource that lists how long the platforms are for the stations south of WAS on the route of the 2 Silver trains? (Which may need to be qualified by the still usable portion of the crumbling platforms in some cases). I know Raleigh's plans for their new station include a long high level platform so the Star does not have to double stop there. Wondering which stations can still handle 14-16 car trains in the east outside of the NEC.

 

[AlanB]

Additionally, while I cannot currently find any such rule (but didn't have much time to really research things), I have been told by a reliable source that HEP must be under the control of the engineer. That would mean that Amtrak would need more than just a monitor in the cab, they'd need a way for the engineer to kill both the HEP coming from the engine as well as from a generator car.

How is it necessarily any different from operating with a cab car, with HEP coming from the engine at the other end of the train?

As far as I know, and I do admit that I don't spend time in the cab part of cab cars, an engineer in a cab car can still cut the HEP from his position in the cab and does not need to walk back to the engine to drop the HEP.

Right now AFAIK, there is no facility within a P42 to monitor & control the HEP from any other source, except another P42 coupled in line. Even if there is a facility to monitor/control HEP from some "power car", the Superliner cars have no control cables (save the few modified for use on the Heartland Flyer), so there would be no way to get the data & control from a power car at the rear up to the head end.

Even PV's towed at the rear of an Amtrak train use HEP provided by Amtrak AFAIK and not their own generators when in motion behind an Amtrak train.

 

[AlanB]

On the subject of a really long Silver Star or Meteor as shown in the video, I'm curious if those trains had to double stop at most stations on the trip? WAS could handle it, but that would be one long walk from the front of the train on the lower level track platforms to the stairs leading to Union Station. Is there a station information resource that lists how long the platforms are for the stations south of WAS on the route of the 2 Silver trains? (Which may need to be qualified by the still usable portion of the crumbling platforms in some cases). I know Raleigh's plans for their new station include a long high level platform so the Star does not have to double stop there. Wondering which stations can still handle 14-16 car trains in the east outside of the NEC.

Several years ago, more than 5 but less than 10 I think, there was a couple of months where do to CSX construction Amtrak coupled the Silver Star to the Silver Meteor and ran a combined train between Florida & NY. Save NY, I believe that train needed to double spot at a minimum at every other station, and at many they were doing triple & even quad spots.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

In general Amtrak ridership back in those days was much lower than it is now. I don't know what Silver Star ridership was back then. Trains are generally shorter now due to lack of available equipment to make them longer.

The largest portion of the growth in ridership in the past 10 years has come from state supported and short distance corridors. In Amtrak's press release announcing the record FY11 ridership numbers, they break the ridership numbers for each FY back to FY00 by NEC, State supported and Short Distance, and LD categories. In FY00, LD trains carried in 4.02 million, dropped to a low of 3.73 million in FY06 (after cutbacks), then grew to 4.52 million in FY11. All this tells us is that there has not been a huge increase in total LD train ridership in the past 11 years. Meanwhile State-supported and Short-Distance category grew from 8.58 million in FY00 to 14.76 million in FY11.

Would be useful to see what the annual and, even better, the monthly ridership numbers were for the different LD trains going back to the 1970s. Somebody outside of Amtrak- NARP? - likely has that data or at least summaries of it. The monthly numbers for the Silvers would show how much seasonal variation there was back then that may now be lost business because of the lack of "surge" fleet capacity.

On the subject of a really long Silver Star or Meteor as shown in the video, I'm curious if those trains had to double stop at most stations on the trip? WAS could handle it, but that would be one long walk from the front of the train on the lower level track platforms to the stairs leading to Union Station. Is there a station information resource that lists how long the platforms are for the stations south of WAS on the route of the 2 Silver trains? (Which may need to be qualified by the still usable portion of the crumbling platforms in some cases). I know Raleigh's plans for their new station include a long high level platform so the Star does not have to double stop there. Wondering which stations can still handle 14-16 car trains in the east outside of the NEC.

Well at least you provided some information. My thanks.

Does anybody know the actual sleeper and coach capacity for that particular consist compared to today's SS consist? BTW, how many sleepers did Amtrak have at the most anyway?

 

[Anderson]

In general Amtrak ridership back in those days was much lower than it is now. I don't know what Silver Star ridership was back then. Trains are generally shorter now due to lack of available equipment to make them longer.

The largest portion of the growth in ridership in the past 10 years has come from state supported and short distance corridors. In Amtrak's press release announcing the record FY11 ridership numbers, they break the ridership numbers for each FY back to FY00 by NEC, State supported and Short Distance, and LD categories. In FY00, LD trains carried in 4.02 million, dropped to a low of 3.73 million in FY06 (after cutbacks), then grew to 4.52 million in FY11. All this tells us is that there has not been a huge increase in total LD train ridership in the past 11 years. Meanwhile State-supported and Short-Distance category grew from 8.58 million in FY00 to 14.76 million in FY11.

Would be useful to see what the annual and, even better, the monthly ridership numbers were for the different LD trains going back to the 1970s. Somebody outside of Amtrak- NARP? - likely has that data or at least summaries of it. The monthly numbers for the Silvers would show how much seasonal variation there was back then that may now be lost business because of the lack of "surge" fleet capacity.

On the subject of a really long Silver Star or Meteor as shown in the video, I'm curious if those trains had to double stop at most stations on the trip? WAS could handle it, but that would be one long walk from the front of the train on the lower level track platforms to the stairs leading to Union Station. Is there a station information resource that lists how long the platforms are for the stations south of WAS on the route of the 2 Silver trains? (Which may need to be qualified by the still usable portion of the crumbling platforms in some cases). I know Raleigh's plans for their new station include a long high level platform so the Star does not have to double stop there. Wondering which stations can still handle 14-16 car trains in the east outside of the NEC.

I'm wondering if the Pennsylvanian got reallocated between LD and SD during the cutbacks. NYP-CHI is by definition LD, but at the same time it was a state-supported train that got extended IIRC. I know the Silver Palm became the Palmetto (losing service to Florida) during that timeframe. I'm trying to think if anything else was lost other than net sleeper capacity through pulling the Heritage sleepers out of the fleet.

Still, looking at the 2003-2011 numbers (the only ones I have a solid breakout by route on, and even there I have odd numbers for 2003 and 2004), the LD side of things have rebounded substantially. Mind you, looking at the slide between 2000 and 2003, a lot of that was Warrington raising fares while cutting service...revenue remained steady, but fares soared while ridership crashed. Oops.

Part of the reason for the short corridors getting the boost they have, though, has been increased frequencies. Since 2003, not a single LD train has been added, while even the addition of coaches has been sparing (to say nothing of sleeping cars), and you've actually lost two services there (the Three Rivers and the Sunset East). On the NEC, you're close to peak-hour capacity around New York and Philadelphia, though some cars have been added. But on the state front, I know that there have been frequency increases on the Piedmont, the Downeaster, both of the Virginia routes, and I believe on the Surfliner. There's also a bit of inflation going on here, since the NEC included the NPN-WAS trains until 2005 (basically, that's a penalty of 400,000 riders against the NEC and a bonus of 400,000 to the state corridors when it comes to accounting).

Baseline/Adjusting for VA:

NEC Spine: +24%/+30% (Clockers excluded)

Short Corridors: +56%/+50%

Long Distance: +20%

At the risk of sounding comically formalistic, short corridors are growing because short corridors are growing. There's nothing magical going on here...trains are being added to state corridors and therefore ridership is rising. If Amtrak was magically given the equipment, funding, and authorization to run a daily Cardinal, a daily Sunset, and to run the proposed FEC service I suspect that you'd add another 250k-350k riders to the LD system. That would arguably be a minimalist expansion of the LD system (only one new service area being added, and one that Amtrak expects to produce an operating surplus; and two existing trains get daily coverage...all of which has received at least nominally serious discussion from Amtrak), but you'd probably get a 6-8% bump in ridership. Other options such as restoring the Silver Palm, reviving the Three Rivers, or adding another train somewhere in the system would add more ridership (and/or pull ridership off of state corridors...witness what happened to the Pennsylvanian's ridership when the Three Rivers got cut).

Another point I'll make for now: It's not that Amtrak doesn't have cars to shuffle at peak season on different routes...Amtrak has cars. The problem is that you can't move a Superliner from the Zephyr to the Silver Service in the winter unless you want a split-level train south of WAS...and we've been over the practical problems on this before.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm wondering if the Pennsylvanian got reallocated between LD and SD during the cutbacks. NYP-CHI is by definition LD, but at the same time it was a state-supported train that got extended IIRC. I know the Silver Palm became the Palmetto (losing service to Florida) during that timeframe. I'm trying to think if anything else was lost other than net sleeper capacity through pulling the Heritage sleepers out of the fleet.

Another point I'll make for now: It's not that Amtrak doesn't have cars to shuffle at peak season on different routes...Amtrak has cars. The problem is that you can't move a Superliner from the Zephyr to the Silver Service in the winter unless you want a split-level train south of WAS...and we've been over the practical problems on this before.

AFAIR the Palmetto continued to Florida for a short time before being cut back to Savanna.

No matter what, 50 Viewliners are not enough sleeper capacity for major eastern LDs. The LSL which is not supplemented anymore by the TR, the Cardinal despite a lengthy route, and the Crescent all need extra sleepers. Florida is OK for now. I don't think 25 extra sleepers will solve the problem, but some would disagree.

 

[afigg]

I'm wondering if the Pennsylvanian got reallocated between LD and SD during the cutbacks. NYP-CHI is by definition LD, but at the same time it was a state-supported train that got extended IIRC.

The Pennsylvanian through all its permutations may have been treated as a LD versus state supported corridor train at different times. I had to look the train up on Wikipedia to see the long series of changes - extension to Chicago, truncation at PHL, mail cars, daylight service to Cleveland. Would be interesting to see the annual ridership numbers going back to 1980 for the Pennsylvanian in all its variations.

If Amtrak was magically given the equipment, funding, and authorization to run a daily Cardinal, a daily Sunset, and to run the proposed FEC service I suspect that you'd add another 250k-350k riders to the LD system. That would arguably be a minimalist expansion of the LD system (only one new service area being added, and one that Amtrak expects to produce an operating surplus; and two existing trains get daily coverage...all of which has received at least nominally serious discussion from Amtrak), but you'd probably get a 6-8% bump in ridership. Other options such as restoring the Silver Palm, reviving the Three Rivers, or adding another train somewhere in the system would add more ridership (and/or pull ridership off of state corridors...witness what happened to the Pennsylvanian's ridership when the Three Rivers got cut).

We are getting well off-topic for a thread that started with a question about the longest Amtrak train that is not the AutoTrain. Some of this is best discussed in the Best Days Lie Ahead /what we can expect in the next decade thread. Or, better yet, a new thread on where the LD trains could realistically be in 5 and in 10 years - assuming no massive shutdown as a result of the 2012 election which is looking better for Obama & the Dems. And given the a new era of high oil and gasoline prices.

Steering back to some extent on the subject of long Amtrak trains, if Amtrak had enough Amfleet II or new Viewliner LD coach cars, what would the ridership and sleeper numbers look like for:

Silver Meteor with baggage-dorm, 4 Viewliner sleepers, Viewliner Diner, cafe/lounge car, 5 to 6 coach cars. Use the extra capacity, with the only increase in staff cost being an additional LSA and lowered equipment cost with the Heritage cars retired, to lower ticket prices to maximize both ridership and revenue.

Silver Star with baggage-dorm, 3 sleepers, Viewliner Diner, cafe/lounge car, 4 to 5 coach cars. Maybe an additional cafe/lounge or even diner car and coach car if it get split at JAX to run over the FEC. If there is a big boost in business to/from north of JAX from running a split Silver Star over the FEC (which traverses a pretty densely populated coast), the Star could become a train rivaling the LSL for length.

 

[afigg]

AFAIR the Palmetto continued to Florida for a short time before being cut back to Savanna.

No matter what, 50 Viewliners are not enough sleeper capacity for major eastern LDs. The LSL which is not supplemented anymore by the TR, the Cardinal despite a lengthy route, and the Crescent all need extra sleepers. Florida is OK for now. I don't think 25 extra sleepers will solve the problem, but some would disagree.

Wikipedia has a summary of all the variations for the Palmetto & Silver Palm. As for the CAF Viewliner order, yes, if Amtrak wants to run through Viewliner sleepers on the Pennsylvanian to the CL, provide a daily Cardinal with 2 sleeper cars, and have enough Viewliner sleepers to go to 4 total on the LSL, Sliver Meteor on a regular basis, and be able to go to 4 sleepers on the Star and Crescent when/if the demand is there, perhaps even restore a sleeper to the 66/67, they should have ordered more than 25 new sleepers. An order for 35 sleepers would allow for more peak travel periods capacity. The CAF order has an option for 70 cars, so Amtrak could order 10 more sleepers without having to rebid the order. Maybe Amtrak will do that next year, depending on the results of the elections this fall. But, again, a lot of this is more on-topic in other active threads.

 

[jis]

Adding one sleeper to all existing single level sleeper service trains except 448/449 takes 17 sleeper (Star 4, Meteor 4, Crescent 4, LSL 3, Card 2). Making the Card daily takes 2 more. They should be able to pull all that off with 25 Sleepers. I doubt that 66/67 will get any sleeper. Alternatively they could do the Pennsy - Cap thing by not adding a Sleeper to the LSL or one of the Silvers.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Suppose Amtrak somehow bought all 70 options. :excl: Then, with the extra sleepers, how long could the LSL or Crescent become? The Crescent also dosen't have enough sleepers, keeps getting sold out.

 

[Anderson]

One suspicion has been that the Crescent might get one or two sleepers that cut at ATL. NYP-ATL, the train is packed; ATL-NOL, not so much. As to the 25, I believe that there is room to "shake" at least 2, and probably 4, more sleepers in regular use out of that. I don't think Amtrak needs 8 sleepers out of 25 to cover contingencies; 4-6 seems more reasonable.

As to the options, while those could be reallocated, IIRC the split on them was 15 sleepers, 15 diners, 15 bag-dorms, and 25 baggage cars. If you were looking to exercise the whole batch, you'd probably want to cut most of the baggage cars and some of the bag-dorms...but you'd still need a few of the diners at the very least (since once you go past sleeper #4 on a single level, you really need either second dining car or a twin-unit [which Amtrak has no reason to order]). Going to 50/10/10/0 might be possible if Amtrak wanted/needed to and had the money.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

One suspicion has been that the Crescent might get one or two sleepers that cut at ATL. NYP-ATL, the train is packed; ATL-NOL, not so much. As to the 25, I believe that there is room to "shake" at least 2, and probably 4, more sleepers in regular use out of that. I don't think Amtrak needs 8 sleepers out of 25 to cover contingencies; 4-6 seems more reasonable.

As to the options, while those could be reallocated, IIRC the split on them was 15 sleepers, 15 diners, 15 bag-dorms, and 25 baggage cars. If you were looking to exercise the whole batch, you'd probably want to cut most of the baggage cars and some of the bag-dorms...but you'd still need a few of the diners at the very least (since once you go past sleeper #4 on a single level, you really need either second dining car or a twin-unit [which Amtrak has no reason to order]). Going to 50/10/10/0 might be possible if Amtrak wanted/needed to and had the money.

My calculations agree that a single Viewliner diner can only acommodate 4 sleepers. So if Amtrak got 50 sleepers, they would need 13 diners to go along. That's 63. The extra seven could be spares. But since this thread is about train length, let's just discuss future consists, which I already asked about in previous posts.

 

[afigg]

Suppose Amtrak somehow bought all 70 options. :excl: Then, with the extra sleepers, how long could the LSL or Crescent become? The Crescent also dosen't have enough sleepers, keeps getting sold out.

The option includes a number of baggage cars which would only be needed if some Western LD trains were to be restored to service or for additional corridor trains with baggage service in the east.

If Amtrak were to exercise some of the option for 5-10 sleepers, those would be used for extend service on the current LD train or on through car from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited. If a number of additional Viewliner baggage-dorms, diners, and sleepers were ordered, those would be used to restore LD trains such the Three Rivers, Silver Palm, or start/restore some older LD train routes, not to extend the current LD trains. An order of 5 baggage-dorms, 5 diners, 15 sleepers would likely cover the Silver Palm and Three Rivers in combination with the current order. Well, if Amtrak had enough LD coach and cafe/lounge cars to support the trains, which would require an order for Viewliner coach cars or possibly converting some Horizons to LD coach configurations. The odds of Amtrak exercising much of the 70 car option order for the current type are rather long.

 

[Anderson]

One suspicion has been that the Crescent might get one or two sleepers that cut at ATL. NYP-ATL, the train is packed; ATL-NOL, not so much. As to the 25, I believe that there is room to "shake" at least 2, and probably 4, more sleepers in regular use out of that. I don't think Amtrak needs 8 sleepers out of 25 to cover contingencies; 4-6 seems more reasonable.

As to the options, while those could be reallocated, IIRC the split on them was 15 sleepers, 15 diners, 15 bag-dorms, and 25 baggage cars. If you were looking to exercise the whole batch, you'd probably want to cut most of the baggage cars and some of the bag-dorms...but you'd still need a few of the diners at the very least (since once you go past sleeper #4 on a single level, you really need either second dining car or a twin-unit [which Amtrak has no reason to order]). Going to 50/10/10/0 might be possible if Amtrak wanted/needed to and had the money.

My calculations agree that a single Viewliner diner can only acommodate 4 sleepers. So if Amtrak got 50 sleepers, they would need 13 diners to go along. That's 63. The extra seven could be spares. But since this thread is about train length, let's just discuss future consists, which I already asked about in previous posts.

I've done some math where a diner could accommodate five sleepers, but it's a risky stretch. In all fairness, I'd say that when you hit four, it's time to look at adding diner capacity.

As far as single-level consists go, here's what I'm thinking we could see in the not-too-distant future:

Crescent

Bag-dorm

Sleeper [NOL]

Sleeper [NOL]

Diner [NOL]

Cafe [NOL]

Coach [NOL]

Coach [NOL]

Coach [NOL]

Coach [NOL] -Seasonal

Coach [ATL]

Coach [ATL]

Sleeper [ATL]

Sleeper [ATL]

Lake Shore Limited

Bag-dorm [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Diner [NYP]

Cafe [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP] -Seasonal

Coach [bOS]

Coach [bOS]

Cafe [bOS]

Sleeper [bOS]

Both are likely to make for some very long walks indeed.

Silver Star

Bag-Dorm [ORL]

Sleeper [ORL]

Sleeper [ORL]

Diner [ORL]

Cafe [ORL]

Coach [ORL]

Coach [ORL]

Coach [ORL]

Coach [FEC]

Coach [FEC]

Cafe [FEC]

Sleeper [FEC]

Sleeper [FEC]

Both sections go to Miami, albeit by different routings; therefore, I've labeled them by whether they go to Orlando or down the FEC en route. My best guess, based on the estimates in the FEC studies, was that Amtrak was likely to put two sleepers on the FEC route. However, the number of coaches may be low (I could see a third coach being added in JAX).

Silver Meteor

Bag-Dorm

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Diner

Cafe

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach -Seasonal

Cardinal

Bag-Dorm

Sleeper

Diner-Club

Coach

Coach

Coach

I am predicating this on the success of the diner-club plan on the LSL, but I'm going to guess that it is highly unlikely for the Cardinal to end up with two food service cars to serve four passenger cars, or indeed to serve five if a fifth coach is added. If a second sleeper is added (I believe that the business is there to support it; if I were Amtrak I'd be inclined to push the Cardinal for September/October and add capacity then, since all of the other LD services hit a rut during those months...particularly October).

Thinking things through, I would be inclined to suggest (rather than suspect) the following allocation of 75 sleepers to Amtrak:

-Lake Shore Limited: 12 (3 sets: 3 NYP, 1 BOS)

-Silver Meteor: 16 (4 sets: 4 MIA)

-Silver Star: 16 (4 sets: 2 FEC, 2 ORL)

-Crescent: 12 (4 sets: 2 NOL; 2 sets: 2 ATL)

-Pennsylvanian: 6 (3 sets: 2 CHI)

-Cardinal: 3 (3 sets: 1 CHI)

-Variable: 4

-Backup: 6

The "Variable" sleepers would run on the Cardinal in the fall and be assigned to one of the Florida trains (probably the Star, due to the split) at peak season, depending on demand; under this plan, the Star would require two diners, but that seems inevitable given the length of walk that would be needed to reach the diner at that point (and I pity the SCA who gets a wheelchair-bound retiree couple ordering dinner).

The "backup" cars include the 3-4 "protect" cars plus 3-4 that are shopped at any given time (an additional car or two could be pulled from the variable pile in during parts of the "off-season"; it seems possible that in some particularly slow periods, Amtrak might want to seriously consider trimming a consist or two, even just midweek, back by a car for a week or two so they could carry out a few more planned inspections).

Mind you, I'd like to see another 5-15 sleepers added: 2 for the Twilight Shoreliner, 3 for another sleeper on the Cardinal, and a few more as spares or as sleepers that can be moved around as a "surge fleet" (to actually mark off a "winter season" for Florida to at least some extent). Ideally, you'd have about 10 in the "variable" column so that Amtrak could deal with random bumps in demand (and have the SCA hookups set up so that at least in a few cases, like the LSL or the Cardinal, you could do this without increasing staffing at all) and schedule them on a somewhat ad hoc basis.

 

[Donctor]

Adding one sleeper to all existing single level sleeper service trains except 448/449 takes 17 sleeper (Star 4, Meteor 4, Crescent 4, LSL 3, Card 2). Making the Card daily takes 2 more. They should be able to pull all that off with 25 Sleepers. I doubt that 66/67 will get any sleeper. Alternatively they could do the Pennsy - Cap thing by not adding a Sleeper to the LSL or one of the Silvers.

Unless they somehow manage to reduce the Meteor to three sets. It doesn't seem impossible, though as a non-employee, I don't actually know how difficult it would be.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Lake Shore Limited

Bag-dorm [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Diner [NYP]

Cafe [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP] -Seasonal

Coach [bOS]

Coach [bOS]

Cafe [bOS]

Sleeper [bOS]

You added a sleeper but took out a coach. If you had kept the coach, which Amtrak will probably do, then that would be fifteen cars. Suppose Amtrak did four seatings a meal for a 48-seat diner. That's 192 in total, so that could accomodate up to six sleepers. If there's a lot of coaches, Amtrak could still assign fiver sleepers to the LSL.

In the end, it is important to know how much demand there is for NYP/BOS-CHI. Does BOS warrant an additional sleeper? Is the current one sold out a lot?

 

[AlanB]

Lake Shore Limited

Bag-dorm [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Diner [NYP]

Cafe [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP] -Seasonal

Coach [bOS]

Coach [bOS]

Cafe [bOS]

Sleeper [bOS]

You added a sleeper but took out a coach. If you had kept the coach, which Amtrak will probably do, then that would be fifteen cars. Suppose Amtrak did four seatings a meal for a 48-seat diner. That's 192 in total, so that could accomodate up to six sleepers. If there's a lot of coaches, Amtrak could still assign fiver sleepers to the LSL.

In the end, it is important to know how much demand there is for NYP/BOS-CHI. Does BOS warrant an additional sleeper? Is the current one sold out a lot?

You can't do 4 seatings in the diner, 3 is the max unless you want some really odd times. But normal would be 5:00 PM, 6:30 PM, & 8:00 PM. You really can't tighten things more than that. To get to 4 seatings you'd have to start serving dinner at 4:00 or 4:30 PM and even then you're looking at the last seating at around 9 PM. Way too late!

 

[AlanB]

Thinking things through, I would be inclined to suggest (rather than suspect) the following allocation of 75 sleepers to Amtrak:

-Lake Shore Limited: 12 (3 sets: 3 NYP, 1 BOS)

-Silver Meteor: 16 (4 sets: 4 MIA)

-Silver Star: 16 (4 sets: 2 FEC, 2 ORL)

-Crescent: 12 (4 sets: 2 NOL; 2 sets: 2 ATL)

-Pennsylvanian: 6 (3 sets: 2 CHI)

-Cardinal: 3 (3 sets: 1 CHI)

-Variable: 4

-Backup: 6

The "Variable" sleepers would run on the Cardinal in the fall and be assigned to one of the Florida trains (probably the Star, due to the split) at peak season, depending on demand; under this plan, the Star would require two diners, but that seems inevitable given the length of walk that would be needed to reach the diner at that point (and I pity the SCA who gets a wheelchair-bound retiree couple ordering dinner).

The "backup" cars include the 3-4 "protect" cars plus 3-4 that are shopped at any given time (an additional car or two could be pulled from the variable pile in during parts of the "off-season"; it seems possible that in some particularly slow periods, Amtrak might want to seriously consider trimming a consist or two, even just midweek, back by a car for a week or two so they could carry out a few more planned inspections).

You don't have enough "backup" sleepers in your plan. Even before the new sleepers come online, Amtrak currently always has 5 sleepers out of service for the various inspections. There are always 2 cars out at any given time for an annual 2 week inspection and 3 cars OOS for the 2 day 92 day inspections. Adding 25 more sleepers to that mix should mean that 4 cars will be OOS for 92 day inspections and 3 will be out for at least 25 weeks of the year for the annual inspections.

That leaves no spares at all. And Amtrak at a minimum must have at least 1 spare in NY and 1 in Miami. And they really should have a spare in Chicago.

And if Amtrak starts on a refurbishment program for the original 50, then that would take 1 car OOS for a month or more.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Crescent

Bag-dorm

Sleeper [NOL]

Sleeper [NOL]

Diner [NOL]

Cafe [NOL]

Coach [NOL]

Coach [NOL]

Coach [NOL]

Coach [NOL] -Seasonal

Coach [ATL]

Coach [ATL]

Sleeper [ATL]

Sleeper [ATL]

Lake Shore Limited

Bag-dorm [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Diner [NYP]

Cafe [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP] -Seasonal

Coach [bOS]

Coach [bOS]

Cafe [bOS]

Sleeper [bOS]

Both are likely to make for some very long walks indeed.

Silver Star

Bag-Dorm [ORL]

Sleeper [ORL]

Sleeper [ORL]

Diner [ORL]

Cafe [ORL]

Coach [ORL]

Coach [ORL]

Coach [ORL]

Coach [FEC]

Coach [FEC]

Cafe [FEC]

Sleeper [FEC]

Sleeper [FEC]

Both sections go to Miami, albeit by different routings; therefore, I've labeled them by whether they go to Orlando or down the FEC en route. My best guess, based on the estimates in the FEC studies, was that Amtrak was likely to put two sleepers on the FEC route. However, the number of coaches may be low (I could see a third coach being added in JAX).

Cardinal

Bag-Dorm

Sleeper

Diner-Club

Coach

Coach

Coach

I am predicating this on the success of the diner-club plan on the LSL, but I'm going to guess that it is highly unlikely for the Cardinal to end up with two food service cars to serve four passenger cars, or indeed to serve five if a fifth coach is added. If a second sleeper is added (I believe that the business is there to support it; if I were Amtrak I'd be inclined to push the Cardinal for September/October and add capacity then, since all of the other LD services hit a rut during those months...particularly October).

Thinking things through, I would be inclined to suggest (rather than suspect) the following allocation of 75 sleepers to Amtrak:

-Lake Shore Limited: 12 (3 sets: 3 NYP, 1 BOS)

-Silver Meteor: 16 (4 sets: 4 MIA)

-Silver Star: 16 (4 sets: 2 FEC, 2 ORL)

-Crescent: 12 (4 sets: 2 NOL; 2 sets: 2 ATL)

-Pennsylvanian: 6 (3 sets: 2 CHI)

-Cardinal: 3 (3 sets: 1 CHI)

-Variable: 4

-Backup: 6

The "Variable" sleepers would run on the Cardinal in the fall and be assigned to one of the Florida trains (probably the Star, due to the split) at peak season, depending on demand; under this plan, the Star would require two diners, but that seems inevitable given the length of walk that would be needed to reach the diner at that point (and I pity the SCA who gets a wheelchair-bound retiree couple ordering dinner).

The "backup" cars include the 3-4 "protect" cars plus 3-4 that are shopped at any given time (an additional car or two could be pulled from the variable pile in during parts of the "off-season"; it seems possible that in some particularly slow periods, Amtrak might want to seriously consider trimming a consist or two, even just midweek, back by a car for a week or two so they could carry out a few more planned inspections).

Mind you, I'd like to see another 5-15 sleepers added: 2 for the Twilight Shoreliner, 3 for another sleeper on the Cardinal, and a few more as spares or as sleepers that can be moved around as a "surge fleet" (to actually mark off a "winter season" for Florida to at least some extent). Ideally, you'd have about 10 in the "variable" column so that Amtrak could deal with random bumps in demand (and have the SCA hookups set up so that at least in a few cases, like the LSL or the Cardinal, you could do this without increasing staffing at all) and schedule them on a somewhat ad hoc basis.

Meteor is fine, I'll leave that alone, but in regards to the others:

LSL: You left out the baggage car currently run to Boston. This needs to stay. I think since there is a food-service car and a sleeper, it should be a bag-dorm. The limited capacity of the sleeper pax to Boston should not be compromised by keeping the food service and SCA staying in roomettes. (I'm not actually sure where food service personnel stay, but I'm just guessing that they have roomettes. The fourth coach to NYP should be constant, with a fifth being seasonal.

Cardinal: I think that there should probably be two sleepers year-round. A bag-dorm should not be necessary though because the capacity may not always be there.6

Silver Star: I think that there should eventually be 6 sleepers here. Two to Miami on the FEC, and 3 to Miami via Tampa and Orlando, assuming that this train continues to serve Tampa via the backup move. Due to the significantly shorter FEC times versus Tampa backup, most pax on the train via Tampa will not go to Miami, unless they are people like us who want much more train time. I think the Treasure Coast and Miami FEC service should merit three. I put a lounge on the FEC section due to that service being somewhat of a corridor, intra-Florida service. I would like to see the consist like this:

P42DC (via FEC)

P42DC (via Tampa and Orlando)

Bag-dorm (T&O)

Sleeper (T&O)

Sleeper (T&O)

Sleeper (T&O)

Diner (T&O)

Lounge (T&O)

Coach (T&O)

Coach (T&O)

Coach (T&O)

Baggage (FEC)

Sleeper (FEC)

Sleeper (FEC)

Sleeper (FEC

Diner (FEC)

Coach (FEC

Coach (FEC)

Coach (FEC)

Lounge (tacked on in JAX)

Coach (JAX-MIA)

Coach (JAX-MIA)

Coach (JAX-MIA).

Now this is a very long train, basically double the capacity of the current train NYP-JAX. I realize that I'm giving the train probably more than it deserves, but I am trying to account for all projected growth. I put a standard baggage onto the FEC section, since all of the FEC dining staff could stay in coach on the daylight FEC section, assuming current schedule north of JAX. I felt like the FEC baggage had to be in the middle of the train, making it essentially two separate trains just with the same schedule, because having it at the end and adding coaches in JAX would make switching far too hard. The train would basically be separate, except for crew. This plan may even require two engines JAX-MIA via FEC, so I guess you can add that to what I previously wrote.

Crescent: I find the walk between the ATL coaches and especially sleepers to the diner and lounge to be way too far. I don't have remedy, because all solutions would make it awkward for some pax.

Things not mentioned in comment I'm quoting but I feel like I should say:

I also agree that 4 sleepers need to be given to the Twilight Shoreliner. From what I;ve heard on here, these would definitely be utilized.

The Palmetto should definitely receive a full diner on the run. I'm not sure what the dining CR is, but if they could make it anywhere remotely near break-even, then I think that having it as an amenity would definitely bring more back than it costs.

Again, sorry to everyone if I'm getting too carried away with my projections. I guess I would just like to think, if you implement a train, pax will ride, or something along those lines.

 

[SubwayNut]

Getting a seating for the small dining car is already an issue on LSL. I took it last summer, all six coaches, all sold-out and wanted to have lunch in the diner. I was off on the platform enjoying the air in Syracuse when the steward came through for reservations and walked up to the diner to try and get one but was told it was completely full, they were nervous about having enough food and that I couldn't be added to a waiting/standby list. I was once put on a wait list on the Empire Builder in summer and ended up having dinner at 9pm but still got it and they made the standard "Last call for dinner announcement, if anyone else on the train wishes to have dinner." The LSL did not make a last call for lunch announcement.

I was stuck dealing with a severely depleted lounge car menu for a meager lunch!

 

[Donctor]

448/449 only needs a bag BOS-ALB, but if switching is to be avoided at ALB, run it BOS-CHI and only use one car as a working bag, as is currently done. The BOS section doesn't need a bag/dorm for an LSA and a coach attendant. Aside from the larger crew on the NYP section, you'd probably want to run the bag/dorm to NYP to run it to HIA for maintenance.

 

[afigg]

LSL: You left out the baggage car currently run to Boston. This needs to stay. I think since there is a food-service car and a sleeper, it should be a bag-dorm. The limited capacity of the sleeper pax to Boston should not be compromised by keeping the food service and SCA staying in roomettes. (I'm not actually sure where food service personnel stay, but I'm just guessing that they have roomettes. The fourth coach to NYP should be constant, with a fifth being seasonal.

Cardinal: I think that there should probably be two sleepers year-round. A bag-dorm should not be necessary though because the capacity may not always be there.6

Amtrak ordered 25 baggage-dorms, not 30 or 35. The NYP section of the LSL gets a baggage-dorm, using a baggage-dorm on the BOS section would likely be a waste of resources. Since the BOS-ALB leg is during the day, maybe the BOS OBS should use the NYP baggage-dorm - if there is room for them.

The Cardinal should get a baggage-dorm to free up space. With the 25 diners ordered, the plans for the Cardinal may be a baggage-dorm, 2 sleepers, and a diner, along with the Amfleet II cafe/lounge and coach cars. A daily Cardinal would boost demand for the train.

Silver Star: I think that there should eventually be 6 sleepers here. Two to Miami on the FEC, and 3 to Miami via Tampa and Orlando, assuming that this train continues to serve Tampa via the backup move. Due to the significantly shorter FEC times versus Tampa backup, most pax on the train via Tampa will not go to Miami, unless they are people like us who want much more train time. I think the Treasure Coast and Miami FEC service should merit three. I put a lounge on the FEC section due to that service being somewhat of a corridor, intra-Florida service. I would like to see the consist like this:

P42DC (via FEC)

P42DC (via Tampa and Orlando)

Bag-dorm (T&O)

Sleeper (T&O)

Sleeper (T&O)

Sleeper (T&O)

Diner (T&O)

Lounge (T&O)

Coach (T&O)

Coach (T&O)

Coach (T&O)

Baggage (FEC)

Sleeper (FEC)

Sleeper (FEC)

Sleeper (FEC

Diner (FEC)

Coach (FEC

Coach (FEC)

Coach (FEC)

Lounge (tacked on in JAX)

Coach (JAX-MIA)

Coach (JAX-MIA)

Coach (JAX-MIA).

Amtrak ordered 25 sleepers, not 35 to 40. Any start of service over the FEC is likely 3+ years away, so there is plenty to time to guess what Amtrak will do.

Where are all the coach cars for these seriously extended eastern LD trains being proposed here supposed to come from? Amtrak has only 120 LD coach and 25 cafe/lounge Amfleet II cars available. Amtrak needs to order Viewliner LD coach and cafe/lounge cars, but that is likely years away (unfortunately).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

When I said four seatings, I meant something like 5:00, 6:00, 7:00, 8:00. Then again, not realistic, so that's why I said that I calculated for three seatings, but another guy said four was possible, per my quote.

Also, to answer the comment about a really long SS: it would probably need three P42DCs just for North of JAX service.