Longest Amtrak train

[jis]

What are its destinations?

Howrah Mumbai Mail via Grand Chord and Allahabad runs from Howrah (Kolkata) to Mumbai CST (ex-Victoria Terminus) (Mumbai)

Why so many pax?

India has a huge population the upper and middle echelons of it is remarkably mobile. Indian Railways is the mainstay of passenger transportation in India. Airlines are a relatively small proportion of passenger transport, and road transport works for short to medium haul, but not so well for long haul. So all long distance trains are perpetually overloaded. Standard LD consist these days is 20 to 24 cars. The super-fast Rajdhanis and Durontos are restricted to 18 or 19 cars.

Which class of train?

That one is a Mail train which means that it carries mail/parcels. Mail trains are slower than the fastest express trains, but tend to continue running even when other trains are disrupted.

What locomotives?

Texan can verify this, but from the picture it appears that that particular one is pulled by a WAP-4 class 25kV 50Hz 5300HP Co-Co locomotive.

The other passenger workhorse for long LD trains in India is the WAP-7 class 25kV 50Hz 6350HP Co-Co units.

The shorter higher speed trains are also powered by the WAP-5 class 25kV 50Hz 5450HP B-Bo locomotives.

BTW WAP designates W="Broad Gauge", A=AC, P=Passenger.

By the way jis, are you Indian?

Yes. First generation born in independent India. Spent over half my life in the US though.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

What are its destinations?

Howrah Mumbai Mail via Grand Chord and Allahabad runs from Howrah (Kolkata) to Mumbai CST (ex-Victoria Terminus) (Mumbai)

Why so many pax?

India has a huge population the upper and middle echelons of it is remarkably mobile. Indian Railways is the mainstay of passenger transportation in India. Airlines are a relatively small proportion of passenger transport, and road transport works for short to medium haul, but not so well for long haul. So all long distance trains are perpetually overloaded. Standard LD consist these days is 20 to 24 cars. The super-fast Rajdhanis and Durontos are restricted to 18 or 19 cars.

Which class of train?

That one is a Mail train which means that it carries mail/parcels. Mail trains are slower than the fastest express trains, but tend to continue running even when other trains are disrupted.

What locomotives?

Texan can verify this, but from the picture it appears that that particular one is pulled by a WAP-4 class 25kV 50Hz 5300HP Co-Co locomotive.

The other passenger workhorse for long LD trains in India is the WAP-7 class 25kV 50Hz 6350HP Co-Co units.

The shorter higher speed trains are also powered by the WAP-5 class 25kV 50Hz 5450HP B-Bo locomotives.

BTW WAP designates W="Broad Gauge", A=AC, P=Passenger.

By the way jis, are you Indian?

Yes. First generation born in independent India. Spent over half my life in the US though.

As far as locomotives go, what trains have the WDM-2? When were the WDM-1s retired?

How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?

 

[Texan Eagle]

What locomotives?

Texan can verify this, but from the picture it appears that that particular one is pulled by a WAP-4 class 25kV 50Hz 5300HP Co-Co locomotive.

The other passenger workhorse for long LD trains in India is the WAP-7 class 25kV 50Hz 6350HP Co-Co units.

The shorter higher speed trains are also powered by the WAP-5 class 25kV 50Hz 5450HP B-Bo locomotives.

BTW WAP designates W="Broad Gauge", A=AC, P=Passenger.

This particular train is unique on the Indian Railways network as being one of those very few trains that are hauled by 4 different types of locomotives from source to destination-

1) From the start of the journey in Howrah to Allahabad it is hauled by WAP-4 class electric locomotive as jis mentioned

2) At Allahabad the train undergoes a reversal and the line from Allahabad to Itarsi is unelectrified so it gets a WDP-4B class diesel locomotive which is actually EMD's GT46 series locomotive.

3) From Itarsi to Igatpuri again it gets an 25kV 50Hz AC electric locomotive, this time of WAM-4 class which is the older and less powerful cousin of the WAP-4.

4) For the last leg from Igatpuri to Mumbai the locomotive is changed to a WCAM-3 class electric which can run on 1500V DC supply as well as 25kV 50Hz supply since parts of Mumbai are still under old 1500V DC traction.

 

[Texan Eagle]

As far as locomotives go, what trains have the WDM-2? When were the WDM-1s retired?

WDM-2 is the nomenclature given by Indian Railways to their classic 2600hp Alco diesel locomotives. For decades they have been the main workhorses across India's non-electrified routes. Over time Diesel Locomotive Works factory in India made some tweaks to the original design and came up with upgraded models based on original WDM-2 design, namely the 3100hp WDM-3A and 3300hp WDM-3D class. These three classes dominate the diesel routes in India even today, though their monopoly is slowly being challenged by the GM EMD GT46PAC and GT46MAC series diesel-electric locomotives being added to the fleet now. The WDM-1s were retired completely sometime in 1990s. You can find information about all different class of locomotives in use on Indian Railways here.

How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?

What jis meant was, the 'Mail' trains get higher priority over other trains since traditionally they were entrusted with carrying postal mail and the British would not have liked that service being disrupted. So if there is any event that requires partial cancellation of trains over any route, for example a derailment or excessive fog, the 'Mail' trains will not come under the hammer first. They may be rescheduled, put on diverted routes but all efforts are made to ensure the 'Mail' trains are not outright cancelled unless absolutely necessary.

 

[jis]

How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?

One common disruption is fog in the winter, which leads to such delays that they simply run out of consists. In face of such problem the Rajdhani Expresses and the premier Mails are least likely to get cancelled, though even they run into logistical roadblocks eventually and occasionally do get cancelled. OTOH the Mails definitely do not get the royal treatment from dispatchers that the Rajdhanis, Durontos and Shatabdis enjoy. So they do tend to get delayed more than those faster trains.

For example the Howrah Rajdhani consist gets turned in New Delhi between about 10am and 5pm. In foggy conditions it is not uncommon for the incoming to arrive after 5pm. They are then able to run the consist within a couple of hours and send it back on its way, and that is sufficient to ensure on time departure from Howrah for most Delhi bound Rajdhanis, since they use 3+1 (standby) consist to run a service that could theoretically be run with 2. OTOH Kalka Mail gets delayed more, and still is run consistently provided consist is available. It is not at all unusual for lesser through trains to simply get cancelled under those circumstances, just to reduce congestion caused by reduced effective capacity of the main line.

The dispatching problems are monumental since these higher speed trains have to be threaded through a barrage of freight trains roughly one running every 5 mins. The dispatcher's timetable sheet is indeed a sight to behold on a route like the Grand Chord or between Delhi and Kanpur Central.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?

One common disruption is fog in the winter, which leads to such delays that they simply run out of consists. In face of such problem the Rajdhani Expresses and the premier Mails are least likely to get cancelled, though even they run into logistical roadblocks eventually and occasionally do get cancelled. OTOH the Mails definitely do not get the royal treatment from dispatchers that the Rajdhanis, Durontos and Shatabdis enjoy. So they do tend to get delayed more than those faster trains.

For example the Howrah Rajdhani consist gets turned in New Delhi between about 10am and 5pm. In foggy conditions it is not uncommon for the incoming to arrive after 5pm. They are then able to run the consist within a couple of hours and send it back on its way, and that is sufficient to ensure on time departure from Howrah for most Delhi bound Rajdhanis, since they use 3+1 (standby) consist to run a service that could theoretically be run with 2. OTOH Kalka Mail gets delayed more, and still is run consistently provided consist is available. It is not at all unusual for lesser through trains to simply get cancelled under those circumstances, just to reduce congestion caused by reduced effective capacity of the main line.

The dispatching problems are monumental since these higher speed trains have to be threaded through a barrage of freight trains roughly one running every 5 mins. The dispatcher's timetable sheet is indeed a sight to behold on a route like the Grand Chord or between Delhi and Kanpur Central.

Oh, wow. Didn't know about Indian weather.

 

[AlanB]

***And that's another question. I know that the new Viewliners are modular (so that, for example, you could change one to all-roomette, all-bedroom, etc.). Is there any room for switching-over on the Superliners?

Sure, if one had the modules and wanted to either throw away the existing unneeded modules or built new shells, you can make up the car anyway you want. They could even go to 3 bedrooms and drop two roomettes if they wanted. Stick in a lounge, whatever. The possibilities are many.

Superliners would be a whole different story, as you've got to physically knock down walls to change the layout of the car.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

***And that's another question. I know that the new Viewliners are modular (so that, for example, you could change one to all-roomette, all-bedroom, etc.). Is there any room for switching-over on the Superliners?

Sure, if one had the modules and wanted to either throw away the existing unneeded modules or built new shells, you can make up the car anyway you want. They could even go to 3 bedrooms and drop two roomettes if they wanted. Stick in a lounge, whatever. The possibilities are many.

Superliners would be a whole different story, as you've got to physically knock down walls to change the layout of the car.

Does module railcars have less structural integrity than one-piece railcars?

 

[AlanB]

Oh, but I have been on it with 30 cars, though three of them were deadhead.

I have to wonder, with VIA's HEP configuration of dual 440v lines running both sides of the cars, what their consist limit is? If you are pushing the legal limit for HEP on Amtrak's Auto Train with the current consist, you have to think about the differences between two fleets and which one works better over-all for flexibility.

Keep in mind that Superliners draw far more power than single level cars draw.

 

[AlanB]

I think the Auto Train runs up against the HEP limitation for consist length, so even if there were more cars to be added, during peak season the Auto Train is already as long as it can be.

Specially considering that Amtrak or is it FRA(?) does not allow split double HEP circuits in a train with two sections being fed from two different HEP source, which is a common practice in India on super long trains.

There is nothing prohibiting split HEP. Auto Train is at its limit as far as current drawn thru the HEP cables. There has been talk of outfitting the rear portion of the consist with a generator in hopes of being able to add more cars.

I'm not so sure about that. There is an FRA regulation that requires the engineer to have the ability to monitor HEP in the cab. Now it doesn't say that HEP must be under his control, or that it must be located in the engine, but at the very least Amtrak would have to find some way to display the status of a generator car providing HEP to part of the train in the cab of the engine.

Additionally, while I cannot currently find any such rule (but didn't have much time to really research things), I have been told by a reliable source that HEP must be under the control of the engineer. That would mean that Amtrak would need more than just a monitor in the cab, they'd need a way for the engineer to kill both the HEP coming from the engine as well as from a generator car.

 

[AlanB]

***And that's another question. I know that the new Viewliners are modular (so that, for example, you could change one to all-roomette, all-bedroom, etc.). Is there any room for switching-over on the Superliners?

Sure, if one had the modules and wanted to either throw away the existing unneeded modules or built new shells, you can make up the car anyway you want. They could even go to 3 bedrooms and drop two roomettes if they wanted. Stick in a lounge, whatever. The possibilities are many.

Superliners would be a whole different story, as you've got to physically knock down walls to change the layout of the car.

Does module railcars have less structural integrity than one-piece railcars?

I'm not enough of a mechanical engineer to truly answer that question.

I suspect that there would be a bit less structural integrity with a modular car than with a car like the Budd cars in Canada or even the Superliners, but again that's a guess. And I rather doubt that it would be a huge difference.

 

[jis]

Does module railcars have less structural integrity than one-piece railcars?

I'm not enough of a mechanical engineer to truly answer that question.

I suspect that there would be a bit less structural integrity with a modular car than with a car like the Budd cars in Canada or even the Superliners, but again that's a guess. And I rather doubt that it would be a huge difference.

In modern cars, structural integrity is provided by the sills and external skin and supporting structure of the car, and not by the internal furnishings. In bi-levels, the upper floors structure also contributes to the structural integrity, but not the seats or compartments installed within each floor.

So no, the modular cars would not have any detrimental effect on structural integrity of the shell, which is what protects those inside in a crash. An empty shell consisting only of the structural elements, should behave pretty much similarly to a fully furnished car in a collision

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Thanks for the replies!

Another question:

After the Viewliner IIs come out, would the LSL get extra sleepers that would increse train length to 15-16 cars? That would be awesome!

 

[Donctor]

Thanks for the replies!

Another question:

After the Viewliner IIs come out, would the LSL get extra sleepers that would increse train length to 15-16 cars? That would be awesome!

There's no way to know with any certainty at this point.

48/49 could gain an extra sleeper. Keep in mind that plans change frequently, and that a plan doesn't necessarily become reality.

 

[Trogdor]

Additionally, while I cannot currently find any such rule (but didn't have much time to really research things), I have been told by a reliable source that HEP must be under the control of the engineer. That would mean that Amtrak would need more than just a monitor in the cab, they'd need a way for the engineer to kill both the HEP coming from the engine as well as from a generator car.

How is it necessarily any different from operating with a cab car, with HEP coming from the engine at the other end of the train?

 

[afigg]

Another question:

After the Viewliner IIs come out, would the LSL get extra sleepers that would increse train length to 15-16 cars? That would be awesome!

The LSL might indeed get an additional sleeper car for a total of 4: probably 3 on NYP section, 1 on the BOS section. As discussed here in several threads, the capacity constraint is the diner car which may get maxed out providing meals for 4 full sleeper cars.

Don't forget that the baggage-dorm will free up 8-9 roomettes currently used by the crew, so LSL will have more capacity even without adding a Viewliner sleeper. Keep in mind that Amtrak ordered only 25 additional sleeper cars to go along with the 50 Viewliners in service. Those will get spread around to the Silvers, Crescent, probably add 1 sleeper to the Cardinal, support the Pennsylvanian - Capitol Limited pass-through cars.

 

[MrFSS]

This is a long train I videoed in 1992 at, I think, BWI.

LINK

 

It was moving right along!

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

This is a long train I videoed in 1992 at, I think, BWI.

LINK

 

It was moving right along!

I recognize the Diner and Slumbercoach; any idea what the other Heritage Cars are?

 

[Anderson]

Bag

Bag

Bag(?)

Dorm

3 Coaches

Cafe

Twin Unit Diner

Slumbercoach

Sleeper

Sleeper

Cafe(?)

3 coaches

I'll need to check a schedule, but I think that's the Silver Star if it's southbound (if the Meteor was doing a 7 PM NYP departure then); otherwise, it's the NB Meteor.

 

[Donctor]

E60

MHC

Bag

Bag dorm

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Am2 lounge

Buffet

Diner grill

Sleeper 10-6

Sleeper 10-6

Slumbercoach 24-8

Sleeper 10-6

Lounge

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Definitely a Silver

 

[MrFSS]

Bag

Bag

Bag(?)

Dorm

3 Coaches

Cafe

Twin Unit Diner

Slumbercoach

Sleeper

Sleeper

Cafe(?)

3 coaches

I'll need to check a schedule, but I think that's the Silver Star if it's southbound (if the Meteor was doing a 7 PM NYP departure then); otherwise, it's the NB Meteor.

It was southbound. We were on vacation and were taking the train to WASUS. Our hotel was near BWI.

 

[Anderson]

I'm going to say it was the Star SB. I think the Star split into two sections at one point.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.

As for why the SS has less cars. I think it has something to do with the heritage cars like the 10/6 sleepers, slumbercoaches, heritage buffet cars not having a retention toilets or something like that. I really don't know the story as to why Amtrak never added them to the heritage cars. I heard Superliners don't have them and they are still in service.

 

[Trogdor]

How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.

As for why the SS has less cars. I think it has something to do with the heritage cars like the 10/6 sleepers, slumbercoaches, heritage buffet cars not having a retention toilets or something like that. I really don't know the story as to why Amtrak never added them to the heritage cars. I heard Superliners don't have them and they are still in service.

Superliners certainly do have retention tanks.