Empire Builder-Spring 2015

[mwmnp]

There's not much construction going on yet. Most of the delays are related to slow orders due to the ground thawing out. Look, in particular, at the delays adding up between Minot and Fargo - that stretch is infamous for spring frost heaves year after year after year, going back to the Great Northern days.

On a different note, if you make a reservation involving one of the EB connections that is currently allowed, but Amtrak then suspends the connection before your travel date, what happens to your reservation?

 

[jebr]

If the 2014 "extended" schedule was put back in place as-is, would that absorb much of the delays? (As in are those buffer zones still the best places to put them?)

If so, I wouldn't mind an extended schedule if it meant good enough OTP to restore the Cap, Card, Wolverine, and Illinois Zephyr connections. Amtrak must be losing out on a fair amount of connecting business there...that's quite a few connections. (The current arrival into WAS is terrible with the connection from the LSL to a NER...gets in at 12:30 AM, after the Metrorail closes five out of seven days! It's actually making me look into flying or busing into Chicago and taking the CL from there.)

 

[montana mike]

I have followed the slow orders thru ND and MT, while BNSF does slow the EBs down modestly in several spots, especially ND (although the delays the past several days in MT do not appear to have had much to do with the Spring thaw cycle-since I noticed several times where EBs just sat on sidings for 30-45 minutes), a significant reason for the delays are for several reasons: BNSF is mobilizing crews, stockpiling materials and this has likely had a slowing effect, plus there has been recent increase in Inter Modal freight as well as BNSF is moving a lot more traffic to the west coast after the settlement of the dock strike. Yes, if Amtrak had accepted BNSF's recommendation and adjusted the schedules (perhaps not has much as last year), the delays into CHI perhaps would have allowed for connections to all eastbound pax trains, something that was pointed out to Amtrak management, but obviously was not acted upon, therefore incoming EB pax at CHI have no choice but to stay overnight or take a shot (a long one perhaps) at catching the CL or LSL as the only options.

C'est La Vie.

:-(

 

[SteveSFL]

On a different note, if you make a reservation involving one of the EB connections that is currently allowed, but Amtrak then suspends the connection before your travel date, what happens to your reservation?

Good question. I'm connecting from EB(27) to Coast Starlight (11) in Portland on May 9th. If they broke the connection it would really mess my trip up because I'm connecting to the Sunset Limited in LA on the 10th and it doesn't run again until three days later.

 

[Phil S]

. Yes, if Amtrak had accepted BNSF's recommendation and adjusted the schedules (perhaps not has much as last year), the delays into CHI perhaps would have allowed for connections to all eastbound pax trains, something that was pointed out to Amtrak management, but obviously was not acted upon, therefore incoming EB pax at CHI have no choice but to stay overnight or take a shot (a long one perhaps) at catching the CL or LSL as the only options.

C'est La Vie.

:-(

That's what I just don't understand on the part of Amtrak. Eliminate some of the extra padding in January, fine, but everyone knew the construction would start up again. The only encouraging thing about this is (it seems to me) that BNSF is trying to do things right, just making some bad predictions, like not guessing accurately how much the oil transport volumes would increase and then later decrease as nat gas prices plummet (due to Saudi intervention as best I can tell). Can't really blame them for that..Hell of a way to run a country

 

[montana mike]

BNSF Update from my contacts:

1. The heavier freight traffic will continue for the next 3-4 weeks as the congestion from the west coast ports are cleared up.

2. The 2015 construction season will really pick up in early April in ND, mid-April in eastern MT and late April in western MT.

3. Intermodal is forecasted to increase further over the summer.

4. Oil trains will continue at a high pace thru June/July, then ease off slowly for the rest of the year, UNLESS the price of oil goes back up.

5. Not a big thaw season due to the mild and dry weather in eastern MT and ND this year. The slow orders are limited to several key (and fortunately relatively short) distances and should be lifted as we get into mid to late April.

6. More mud slide mitigation work to be done starting in May thru Sept in Washington. But this is a multi-year effort and also requires some Federal funding for parts of the work.

Looks like it will be an interesting Spring thru fall for the Empire Builders this year

 

[montana mike]

Looking at the BNSF construction schedule for April it could be a slow month for the Empire Builders from eastern MT thru much of ND. A lot of construction ongoing and scheduled in that zone. Eastbound trains already are experiencing 2-3 hour delays as they trek thru this area (westbound about an hour). I guess it could be worse....when we think of the past 24 months of terrible timekeeping.

 

[Ziv]

NW, I grew up on the Hi-Line and it seems like the Milk River flooded nearly every year in the 70's. We used to build rafts out of discarded materials and float from the west side of town to the east side. It was a great time and place to be a kid! The Missouri flooded as well but that was not in my neighborhood. But I remember the spillway at Fort Peck would be open and an incredible torrent would be pouring through it just about every spring. I don't think the reservoir even reached the spillway during the 90's, it was all dry land due to low water levels.

At that time the Empire Builder was still quite the "luxury" train and I got to ride it a couple times, albeit in coach most of the time. The one time I got to go sleeper it was like I was in a Cary Grant movie, it just seemed like there had to be a movie star on that train SOMEWHERE! LOL! My father worked as a brakeman for Great Northern, then as a conductor for Burlington Northern, except for a year where he was recovering from back surgery and worked for Amtrak. Not sure how that was worked out.

The point MM mentioned about "no likely flooding this year"
That seems likely, no floods foreseen on the route this year, and it is a big plus. (what years this century didn't flood parts of the Hi-Line?)
Hope a drier year helps BNSF with their upgrades this year. And the lower crude prices may temporarily take some traffic off the line - good? bad? for who?

Anyhow, hoping for a good construction season, but delays will be part of the game, no doubt.

 

[NW cannonball]

I live near MSP. I won't plan any trip on the EB that needs connections eastbound in CHI or westbound to connect to the Coast Starlight. I'll plan a layover at Seattle or Portland, or at Chicago.

That's just how it is. If I need connection East - I'll take the dog or the Megabus (or even an airplane) to CHI have to leave at zero-dark-whatever, but the EB won't let me connect eastbound from CHI.

Westbound - Connecting to the CS or the Cascades -- I'll ride the EB (like it) but have friends near SEA where can sleep over.

Same-day connection EB to anything? No.

 

[NW cannonball]

Hey man, I got 50 cousins out there on the Hi-Line - and they all say "every year is different" and "most years are worse than most years"

Floods, sure. Droughts - sure. Winters -- well, every winter is worse than the last.

Me, I'm trying to figure how the latest financier will maybe make it all better.

Yeah, there's a big-time investor pouring money in -- but over all -

Me just hoping the line keeps running -- seems probable - with delays.

NW, I grew up on the Hi-Line and it seems like the Milk River flooded nearly every year in the 70's. We used to build rafts out of discarded materials and float from the west side of town to the east side. It was a great time and place to be a kid! The Missouri flooded as well but that was not in my neighborhood. But I remember the spillway at Fort Peck would be open and an incredible torrent would be pouring through it just about every spring. I don't think the reservoir even reached the spillway during the 90's, it was all dry land due to low water levels.

At that time the Empire Builder was still quite the "luxury" train and I got to ride it a couple times, albeit in coach most of the time. The one time I got to go sleeper it was like I was in a Cary Grant movie, it just seemed like there had to be a movie star on that train SOMEWHERE! LOL! My father worked as a brakeman for Great Northern, then as a conductor for Burlington Northern, except for a year where he was recovering from back surgery and worked for Amtrak. Not sure how that was worked out.

The point MM mentioned about "no likely flooding this year"

That seems likely, no floods foreseen on the route this year, and it is a big plus. (what years this century didn't flood parts of the Hi-Line?)

Hope a drier year helps BNSF with their upgrades this year. And the lower crude prices may temporarily take some traffic off the line - good? bad? for who?

Anyhow, hoping for a good construction season, but delays will be part of the game, no doubt.

 

[Ziv]

I hear you about every year in Montana being different. While I was growing up we had pretty good precipitation, both rain and snow. I remember driving down Highway 2 and snowbanks being 20 feet high on either side of the road. After I left in '82 I don't think they got more than 6" of precipitation in any year until the late 80's. It was horrible for the ranchers/farmers/boaters. I remember the marina kept building longer and longer boat ramps. Now that the reservoir is back up to full pool the bottom of the concrete boat ramp is probably 25 feet under water and 150 feet long under the water. My grandfather was buying hay from all over the west to keep his cattle fed and not just in the winter.

I don't know what is going on with the money stuff. My Mom's new ranch is in Rapelje, and there isn't a lot of outside money there, other than the Mormon Church looking to buy up land. Glasgow/Valley County is my home ground, and it is on the very western edge of what the Bakken may end up reaching. But now that the Bakken rig count is down to 102 rigs and Richland county has the only Bakken rigs in Montana, it will be a long time before any of that money/mayhem hits my town.

Hey man, I got 50 cousins out there on the Hi-Line - and they all say "every year is different" and "most years are worse than most years"
Floods, sure. Droughts - sure. Winters -- well, every winter is worse than the last.
Me, I'm trying to figure how the latest financier will maybe make it all better.
Yeah, there's a big-time investor pouring money in -- but over all -
Me just hoping the line keeps running -- seems probable - with delays.

 

[Amfleeter]

You know, it's nice how BNSF actually gives a bit of a damn about the Empire Builder, and tries to give Amtrak heads up about work, and takes the EB seriously to a degree...... unlike the EB's northern cousin with CN.

 

[montana mike]

Not looking good for BOTH #8's today. I wonder what happened to #8 leaving SEA last night, started out an hour late and is now continuing to lose time on its eastward journey. Meanwhile the delays keep creeping up thru MT and ND. The average delay is now approaching the BNSF estimate of 3 hours thru that stretch. #8 arrived in CHI yesterday just under 2 1/2 hours behind, all due to the delays thru MT/ND.

Sadly, I think I may have to rearrange my travels and forgo the increasingly slim chance to connect with the CL if this trend continues.

 

[jfeucht]

Not looking good for BOTH #8's today. I wonder what happened to #8 leaving SEA last night, started out an hour late and is now continuing to lose time on its eastward journey. Meanwhile the delays keep creeping up thru MT and ND. The average delay is now approaching the BNSF estimate of 3 hours thru that stretch. #8 arrived in CHI yesterday just under 2 1/2 hours behind, all due to the delays thru MT/ND.

Sadly, I think I may have to rearrange my travels and forgo the increasingly slim chance to connect with the CL if this trend continues.

I'm actually on #8 right now. Train was delayed getting out of the yard at Seattle last night, something about a car being added. We lost a second hour waiting on a siding as a freight set out a car that was leaning.

 

[jebr]

Actually, as of right now the connection could still be made quite reliably, even with the delays. I wish Amtrak would restore this connection...it appears to be able to be made reliably enough that it should be allowed.



Source

 

[nemaihne]

Hmm, I'm traveling on AGR this August. I currently have the route scheduled from IND-SJC using the EB because it's the only western route I haven't taken. Now I'm concerned. I can't book a layover in PDX because I'm using AGR. I still have time to change my routing since it's so far off. Those of you who ride the EB, would you advise I reroute back to the CZ?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Hmm, I'm traveling on AGR this August. I currently have the route scheduled from IND-SJC using the EB because it's the only western route I haven't taken. Now I'm concerned. I can't book a layover in PDX because I'm using AGR. I still have time to change my routing since it's so far off. Those of you who ride the EB, would you advise I reroute back to the CZ?

Yep, unless AGR allows a layover in PDX on your dime like this past year!
It looks like another bad year for the Builder up on the Hi- Line!!

 

[jebr]

Hmm, I'm traveling on AGR this August. I currently have the route scheduled from IND-SJC using the EB because it's the only western route I haven't taken. Now I'm concerned. I can't book a layover in PDX because I'm using AGR. I still have time to change my routing since it's so far off. Those of you who ride the EB, would you advise I reroute back to the CZ?

I'd keep it as is for now. Last year when they broke the connections AGR allowed an overnight (on the customer's dime) in order to make the connection in one redemption. If you're okay with that extra day, Amtrak should be able to ultimately get you to your destination.

 

[willem]

Hmm, I'm traveling on AGR this August. I currently have the route scheduled from IND-SJC using the EB because it's the only western route I haven't taken. Now I'm concerned. I can't book a layover in PDX because I'm using AGR. I still have time to change my routing since it's so far off. Those of you who ride the EB, would you advise I reroute back to the CZ?

If I were in your place, I would not change the reservation yet, since buckets do not apply to an AGR trip. I might monitor the availability of the California Zephyr (by entering 8 as the number of travelers) and revisit the decision if availability drops.
You don't mention if an overnight in Portland would be onerous if allowed. It is possible that AGR will start allowing travelers to spend the night in Portland on their own dimes, and if that happens, you might want to leave a day earlier or arrive a day later.

In any case, this seems early to reschedule an August trip because of what might happen. If you were paying cash, it would be different.

 

[montana mike]

Actually, as of right now the connection could still be made quite reliably, even with the delays. I wish Amtrak would restore this connection...it appears to be able to be made reliably enough that it should be allowed.

connection in Chicago.PNG

Source

Well, missing the connection 5 times out of 30 tries I guess is better than this time last year when it was virtually a 100% miss. My concern is that the construction is just ramping up, with more job sites coming on line over the next two weeks.

 

[benale]

We have a trip in June from LAX to Chi on 14 and 28. We are traveling to South Bend and we are taking 48 which leaves at 9:30, so barring any major delays we should make 48. The 14 to 28 connection is valid with only a little over an hour between trains, but the 28 to 48 is not,so we had to buy two coach tickets. It;s AGR from LA to Chicago. South Bend is still in the same zone as Chicago. I've tried several different AGR agents but no go. Interesting,if you leave from Portland or Seattle the 8-48 connection is valid,so it can't be about the timekeeping..

 

[Bob Dylan]

The reason that the #8 SEA-CHI/#48 CHI- SOB connection is allowed is that you have to layover in SEA for a night on your dime!

If you use AGR Points you would have to do a One Zone Award on #14 from LAX-SEA, then a 2 Zone Award on #8/#48 from SEA-CHI-SOB.

Last year AGR allowed a layover on your dime in PDX, but when they went back to the Old Schedule for #8/#28 this went away! The Empire Builder is already off to a rough start OTP wise this year!

You may want to see if AGR will book a 2 Zone guaranteed award on #4 and #48 LAX-CHI-SOB, or #422 and #48 on the three days a week #422 runs from LAX- CHI.

 

[montana mike]

#8 in MN now 3 1/2 hours late---arrrrgh. I wish my BNSF guy had been wrong, but it does indeed look like ND will once again be a challenge in 2015.

I guess I could always purchase or AGR a ticket for the following day out of CHI and cancel at the last minute if I miss my CL connection?

 

[willem]

The reason that the #8 SEA-CHI/#48 CHI- SOB connection is allowed is that you have to layover in SEA for a night on your dime!

I believe the point that benale was making is that LAX-CHI via 14 and 28 is a published route and PDX-SOB via 28 and 48 is a published route, but LAX-SOB via 14, 28, and 48 is not a published route. Since the 14-28 connection is guaranteed and the 28-48 connection is guaranteed, there is no reason other than the limitations of the booking system for 14-28-48 not to be available.

 

[CHamilton]

North American Railroads Caught by Speed of Crude-Oil Collapse