Coach Passengers visiting Sleeper Passengers?

[Green Maned Lion]

Ah the wonderfulness of rules being unclear.

 

[Dovecote]

Andersone:

I hope you understand no offense was intended. Sometimes we have to look at the light side of the things that make us all unique, like my color blindness, my two artificial hips, my gray hair, or my age. During my last year on the train, I was called "Gramps" more times than I care to think about, but it was all in good fun and the speakers were, and are, my friends. Not long ago I had lunch with a friend who took great delight in convincing the waiter that I was his dad.

If the dyslexia crack was offensive, I sincerely apologize.

Tom

I would think Tom you were called Gramps by your coworkers huh? Certainly not by the passengers! Being in my early sixties I was sometimes on my several trips on the AT one of the youngest on the train.

All kidding aside, I can recall a time or two coach passengers on the AT trying to join other family members assigned in sleepers to eat in the sleeping car dining car. They were told in a diplomatic manner that was a no-no. On another occasion a couple in coach attempted to crash the wine tasting event. They could have gotten away with it had a passenger not told one of the Amtrak employees.

These are just two more examples why there are guidelines in reference to coach passengers entering sleeping car accommodations.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan ---

Since I've retired, I've cleverly misplaced my most recent Service Standards Manual (which was just updated this past spring). So I can't give you a current rule citation. However, I found one from 2002, and I'm sure the rule today is the same or very similar. Chapter 13 is entitled "On-Board Services Crew Functions". Under "Train Attendant - Sleeping Car; Responsibilities Upon Departure and Enroute", item number 8 says "Do not permit unauthorized passengers in the sleeping car. If strangers enter the car, especially late at night, ask them if they need any assistance. If their reasons are not valid, politely direct them to the appropriate car." This can be found on page 13-25 of the 2002 Service Standards Manual.

Thanks, Tom. That's not in the most recent released version (7, released in the Fall) - the spring version 8 hasn't hit the streets yet. Here's the relevant section:

l) Car Security/Safety

• Employees must check their assigned cars

frequently for safety issues and passenger

comfort.

• Any person entering the car, especially late at

night, must be asked if they need assistance. If the passenger’s reasons are not valid, politely direct them to the appropriate car.

• All doors and curtains in unoccupied rooms must be left open.

• Deadheading employees may not occupy Sleeping Car accommodations unless authorized by the Conductor.

Bold mine. That seems to imply, especially when compared to what it used to say, that it's permissible to be in there without a ticket if you have a valid reason. (Page 6-91 for those playing along at home)

That also squares with what EB_OBS is saying, and he'd be in a position to know.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

On my recent around-the-country trip, I experienced several situations where people were in the sleepers who weren't supposed to be there. The most annoying one was the last day on train 27, when several people from coach kept trying to sneak into the sleeper to use the shower. The SCA finally had to lock the shower and asked us to page him when we wanted him to unlock it for us.

The funniest experiences were the drunk people who kept making their way to the 27 sleeper throughout the trip (several almost got kicked off the train for their behavior, loudness, and profanity). Some of them were clearly lost, and argued with the SCA about it - "our seats are thataway!" they said, pointing out the back window. Another time, a drunk woman claimed that she was looking for a friend. "We go way back," she said. "I've known her since... like... five minutes ago."

So yeah, I'm against coach passengers in the sleepers.

There's also the matter of "grey areas." I think we're all in agreement that guests wouldn't be allowed to eat free meals in the dining car. But can a sleeper passenger offer a guest a bottle of water, or some ice? Can the guest use the shower? Can a guest borrow an unused bunk to take a nap - which the SCA then has to make up later? Where does one draw the line for the amenities that are for sleeping passengers only? Between the crowded hallways, noise, general abuse of guest privileges, and coach passengers who just shouldn't be there, I'm completely in favor of a "No Guests" policy. As previous posters have already explained, if you really want to have someone in your room, add them to your ticket.

 

[NW cannonball]

The one time I was a coach "guest" - very briefly, in the SL Roomette we had reserved for my wife and kids (yes, under 26months all you OCD rule-persons out there)

The attendant asked me what I was doing there -- I said "Need to see the wife a few minutes"

Zero problem. Glad the attendant asked, was watching.

If I'd been looking (stupidly) for a free meal, or a shower, naah, wouldn't have passed.

Bottle of water, or some ice -- hey - anybody can and should and must offer water to a guest if they've got any -- and if they don't they are a worthless host and need help themselves. -- corporation or not --

Not offering water if you've got it is offering death -- read Pindar's first Olympian - .

Quiet guest in sleeping-car rooms - see no problem.

Fraud or greed. Lotsa problem.

Guests drinking lotsa private hooch - more problem.

Quiet visitors - no problem at all.

 

[FormerOBS]

Another example we've used is the "Bridal Suite" scenario. If you come to a hotel as a registered guest, then you are welcome to visit the areas that are appropriate for you, including any room you've paid for. But if you then decide to move into the Bridal Suite or a penthouse apartment without paying what it costs, you are guilty of Theft of Services, or Defrauding an Innkeeper, or whatever the law is called in that State.

Tom

 

[NW cannonball]

Oh, for sure, but the person that paid for the room, whether on Amtrak or hotel, usually doesn't agree to "no visitors in your room ever" unless the room is on the Barbary Coast of San Francisco back when --. Or some really cheap lodgings in places I don't go. Or if the "room" or coffin bunk - is on an Navy ship - where no unauthorized civilians go - ever.

Quiet, peaceable guests, for a reasonable while, not demanding services from the landlord -- no problem.

Quite right to leave the rules to the discretion of the locals - or not make any rules -- seems prudent to me.

 

[Silver Star rider]

Oh, for sure, but the person that paid for the room, whether on Amtrak or hotel, usually doesn't agree to "no visitors in your room ever" unless the room is on the Barbary Coast of San Francisco back when --. Or some really cheap lodgings in places I don't go. Or if the "room" or coffin bunk - is on an Navy ship - where no unauthorized civilians go - ever.

Quiet, peaceable guests, for a reasonable while, not demanding services from the landlord -- no problem.

Quite right to leave the rules to the discretion of the locals - or not make any rules -- seems prudent to me.

But if I am renting a room in a hotel that doesn't allow non guests past the check in desk, and a night manager allows a night time visitor to visit a paying guest, then the night manager forfeited his job.

The bottom line... which anyone who can read cant deny..... Several people who work or worked for Amtrak, who has the rules, showed us the rules simply state non sleeper passengers are not allowed in the sleeper car, period, end of discussion.

In lower Manhattan, at a building erected by a trans Atlantic passenger line (Cunard? White Star?), they have different entrances for first and second class passengers. The separation of First class from all others date back that far.

If the SCA decides to look the other way and allow coach passengers in the sleeper car, and something happens, does the SCA run the liability of losing his job? Yep.

Bruce-SSR

 

[Ryan]

But if I am renting a room in a hotel that doesn't allow non guests past the check in desk, and a night manager allows a night time visitor to visit a paying guest, then the night manager forfeited his job.

Amtak isn't that hotel.

The bottom line... which anyone who can read cant deny..... Several people who work or worked for Amtrak, who has the rules, showed us the rules simply state non sleeper passengers are not allowed in the sleeper car, period, end of discussion.

Uh, I can most certainly read and this is incorrect. The current rule book has no such language.

If the SCA decides to look the other way and allow coach passengers in the sleeper car, and something happens, does the SCA run the liability of losing his job? Yep.

Nope.

 

[NW cannonball]

So -what --

The SCA has and uses, control of the sleeping car. If not sleeping elsewhere, and not controlling anything at all.

Allowing a coach passenger into the sleeping car area is "bad" "bad"

But if that lowly coach passenger has paid for the last available roomette for his wife and children --

and the only seat left in coach he is riding? The SCA cut some slack. No fool.

Dogmatic bozos want rules?? just to break them.

Bugger the hell off - the crew let me visit my wife and kids. No meals involved. They did right. I didn't cheat anybody out of anything.

But yes, normally, coach (back-of-the-bus-or-plane) will be questioned and stopped if trying to intrude on sleeper space.

I only wish that some of the noisier guests in the sleeper space could have been sent back to coach - or worse.

 

[FormerOBS]

Ryan, I'm not sure whether the SCA could lose his job, but he could certainly be brought up on charges, held out of service for one to three months without pay while the charges are investigated, and then go through a hearing and given a punishment of thirty days' suspension or so without pay. In addition, he would lose credit towards his RR Retirement pension for the time he is off work. These are significant consequences.

The rules are on the books, and it's good to have them. In my experience, we have had situations that call for a relaxation of the rules, such as NW Cannonball's case. In such a situation, I would be sure the conditions are clear to all involved, and get the approval of the Chief or Conductor. Reasonable people can come up with reasonable approaches to unusual situations. Just as we didn't want to be the "Diner Cops", neither did I ever want to be the "Sleeper ****."

Tom

 

[Bob Dylan]

Since I'm usually hesitant to express an opinion about anything ,I waited awhile to post on this thread!

I fully understand the concern about security in the sleeping cars and appreciate the OBS that keep an eye out for trespassers in the sleepers!

On the other hand, I understand the point of those who point out that when you pay for the room its yours, just like in a hotel! Long as visitors are not stealing coffee, juice, water and attempting to take showers I see no problem with having someone visit you in your room long as the SCA is aware of the fact and the visitor is with the paying sleeping car passenger, not wandering around on their own!

Comparing this to First Class on an airplane is apple and oranges since airplane cabins are shared with the other passengers and sleeping car rooms aren't! Over and out!

 

[NW cannonball]

I didn't want to make a rule about the unusual situation I and my wife and kids were in a while back. --

I was happy that we got to communicate (this was before we all had smartphones.)

The OB staff were reasonable, and they cut us some slack, and I'm happy they did so.

Please consider this example as an example of the OB staff just being reasonable.

Yeah - we know that any rule violation might bite an OB staff person -- but we also know there are so many damn rules that -- you'll be damned one way or the other.

 

[neroden]

As far as I can tell (and as far as the quotes from the current rule book indicate), Amtrak policy is the same as normal hotels. You, as someone who has reserved a room, can have a guest visit your room during the day, provided they (a) are escorted to the room by the person renting it, (b) behave themselves, © fit in the room (no violating fire code), and (d) don't wander around using the rest of the hotel facilities. (Hotels are much pickier about who's present overnight.) It's pretty common for people traveling on business to meet business associates in their hotel rooms, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone's done the same thing with an Amtrak room. The equivalent with friends & family is even more common.

 

[Henry Kisor]

If pretty young female coach passengers wish to accompany a studly sleeper passenger to his room, all one has to do (according to numerous stories I have heard from sleeper attendants) is to offer the SCA a $20 bill and say that the couple wishes to partake in a little Bible study and would the SCA like to participate? wink wink wink. That will insure being left alone.

Of course, if the train is going to Seattle and the coach passenger to Portland, she must return to coach by Spokane or there will be another story for the SCA to tell after hours over a bottle of scotch.

 

[tonys96]

IMHO, this could be a case by case basis. Asking SCA nicely to visit wife and kids, ought to be no problem. Demanding to "look around" the car, big problem. Nothing is always black or white...there are lots of gray areas.

 

[Ryan]

Tom, I greatly appreciate the info that you bring to the table, but I disagree with your statement that "the rules are on the books", given the language in the latest publicly available rule book.

 

[rrdude]

In January, Darlean made an announcement that anyone who was caught in the sleeping car without a sleeper reservation would be kicked off the train. Reading some of the other posts here, it seems to be really up to the SCA. Personally, if I was a sleeper passenger I would not want a conga line of coach passengers in the sleeping car. We had to pay A LOT of money for that space so why turn it into another SSL? We all know how quickly on an airplane the flight attendants will kick you out of FC if your a coach passenger so why expect anything less from First Class on a train.

Because on Amtrak, it's so far from being First Class, (in the sleeper) that it's not even debatable,

 

[rrdude]

My daughter and I will be in the sleeper car (bedroom or Family bedroom), but my son and nephew are riding coach. Will they be able to come visit us during the day in our sleeper bedroom to play cards and such?

Daughter is 18, and son and nephew are 21. We wanted a quiet, private place to do our Bible studies. Lounge car can get loud and disruptive at times depending on who's traveling.

So, you're basically asking us, if its ok for your son and nephew to steal a service, for which you acknowledge they didn't pay to use?

Passengers pay extra, a lot extra, to enjoy the privacy and quiet of the sleeper cars. Something your son and nephew with only coach tickets, didn't pay to use.

May I be bold enough to strongly suggest that part of your Bible studies include a review of "Thou shall not steal". Apparently, that's an ethic you seem to be deficient in understanding.

Man, you are WAY OUTA LINE. They aren't "Stealing" anything, they are visiting, Not sleeping, not partaking of included meals. Have you not ever had a friend visit you while in a hotel? Same thing. This "elitist, No one can visit me in the sleeper, cause I paid for it, and you didn't" attitude is BS.

 

[Ryan]

Tom, I greatly appreciate the info that you bring to the table, but I disagree with your statement that "the rules are on the books", given the language in the latest publicly available rule book.

After thinking about it further, I realized we may be talking past one another. Are you saying that nobody without a ticket should ever be in a sleeper?

 

[jis]

Personally I think it is most unfortunate that Amtrak has seen it fit to make the rule more ambiguous.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[SP&S]

There's leeway there. The SCA and/or conductor have discretion as to what is a valid reason to be in the sleeper.

A couple of years ago Mrs SP&S and I were in a bedroom from LAX-PDX. At the last minute my daughter bought a coach ticket EUG-PDX. We asked our SCA if she could join us in the bedroom. To our credit, we asked nicely, let her know that if it couldn't be done we would be OK, and noted that my daughter was the only revenue passenger among us as we were riding on points. She said, after some deliberation, fine but to get off in EUG to find my daughter and bring her back to the sleeper and board directly to our car. We did, everybody was happy, and the tip was larger than normal. No meals were taken for free and we did not go to the PPC. I fail to see any harm in what was done.

 

[ronkstevens]

Personally I think it is most unfortunate that Amtrak has seen it fit to make the rule more ambiguous.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

In some cases in life things aren't always black and white for rules, and require a judgement decision, as illustrated by several of the posts here. It's written well enough that if the OBS sees that the situation will not cause a disturbance to other paying customers or defraud the Company, then they have the authority to permit it. On the other hand, if they see that the "intruder" is a problem, they can remove them.

 

[Silver Star rider]

If allowing a coach passenger into a sleeper car is shades of gray, open to interpretation, this is a bad thing. Some former SCA's said the rules say no, while riders have said their encounters with SCA's went fine and were allowed.

Let me hypothesize. If I am a SCA, I was asked kindly and allowed coach passengers into a sleeper bedroom. Those coach passengers became disruptive to other sleeper passengers and before I can defuse the situation, the conductor was notified and had to take action. Upon finding out the disruptive passengers were coach, wouldn't the conductor have a stern warning to me ? Wouldn't that make me a little gun shy the next time I am asked to bend the rules??

The next day the same situation is happening again, another family is split into two traveling parties, 2 in coach, 2 in a bedroom. This family traveled last week with another SCA, who allowed the coach passengers to stay and visit the sleeper passengers, so they were expecting to be able to do it again in my car. Having just been warned the day before, I say no. Now that family is getting belligerent with me. Why? I am following the rules, the other SCA bended it. The family was expecting to do it again, since they did it before. Now I am the bad guy for simply following the rules.

In my line of work, it is called going above and beyond my job description. While I can handle a piece of hardware which I am not responsible for, I shouldn't touch it, but getting the customer back online will take me 10 seconds to do, or just walk away. So I get the customer back online. The next week, his service goes out again. Another technician visits the customer, determines it is the piece of hardware I wasn't supposed to touch, but I did, so now the customer expects the second technician to fix a problem he is not responsible for. But he doesn't know the hardware. He is now getting it from the customer.

Bottom line in my examples, there should be no shades of gray and everyone must follow the rules to the letter. When one person starts bending the rules, other people can suffer.

Another issue. The original poster said they have a bedroom. On the viewliners I have been on, there is a private shower. Another poster who was a SCA (or is) said he had to chase coach passengers out of his sleeper car who wanted to use the showers there. How is the SCA going to know if the coach passengers he allowed in is not using the shower?? Yes, this may be silly, but the coach passengers are now using water and towels not meant for them to use.

Bruce-SSR

 

[jebr]

A couple of years ago Mrs SP&S and I were in a bedroom from LAX-PDX. At the last minute my daughter bought a coach ticket EUG-PDX. We asked our SCA if she could join us in the bedroom. To our credit, we asked nicely, let her know that if it couldn't be done we would be OK, and noted that my daughter was the only revenue passenger among us as we were riding on points. She said, after some deliberation, fine but to get off in EUG to find my daughter and bring her back to the sleeper and board directly to our car. We did, everybody was happy, and the tip was larger than normal. No meals were taken for free and we did not go to the PPC. I fail to see any harm in what was done.

In many of these cases (possibly including this one) it may be worth buying an open sleeper ticket instead of a coach ticket. It may be cheaper (as it's always low bucket) and then they're a legitimate sleeper passenger, able to get meals, use the facilities, the water, juice, and coffee, etc.