Autotrain now "Mass Transit"

[Guest]

The table in the roomettes is not really big enough for two people to have dinner on.

While the table is indeed on the small side, I think it is still about the size of two airline seat trays. Though, true, if both passengers want to really spread out with numerous plates and such, it could be a bit tight.

After all a lot of untrained people do just fine carrying food and drinks in those rickety cardboard thingies on the Regionals and Acelas.

Good point.

 

[rrdude]

The table in the roomettes is not really big enough for two people to have dinner on.

While the table is indeed on the small side, I think it is still about the size of two airline seat trays. Though, true, if both passengers want to really spread out with numerous plates and such, it could be a bit tight.

After all a lot of untrained people do just fine carrying food and drinks in those rickety cardboard thingies on the Regionals and Acelas.

Good point.

So THAT is the kind of customer service one expects, when paying big bucks for "sleeper class"? Count me WAY out.

I operated two different dinner trains for nearly ten years. (Michigan Star Clipper, in Paw Paw, MD and the EnterTRAINment Line in Westminster, MD) The Clipper was very fancy, sit-down service, like you would expect in 3-4-5 star restaurant.

The EnterTRAINment line, when we first bought it, had "Table Cars", (old coaches with all coach seats removed, replaced with 4-top tables) and ONE "Kitchen Car". Everybody had to walk back to the "Kitchen Car" (It was a converted lunch-counter snack car) and go thru a cafeteria line, no trays, just plates. (disposable when we first bought it, quickly switched to china/linen/flatware) While our top speed on the Maryland Midland Railway was only about 25-35 for the DT, it was a fricking nightmare for patrons to walk, one-two-three-four cars sometimes, with one hand carrying the plate, jammed full of food, (so they wouldn't have to make that walk again) and the other hand for balance, and opening old sticky, heavy doors.

We very soon opted to lose a couple of tables in each "Table Car", and create a mini-buffet line in each "Table Car". It was a lot more work in set up and tear down, but we had far fewer accidents, and the food was far better quality and much easier to get for the pax.

Imagine doing that, for every meal, on a 3 day, 2 night LD train...... Muahahahahahah!

 

[me_little_me]

Boardman is presenting himself to congress as a magician. He's going to make the dining cars profitable; a first in RR history! What happens when he doesn't meet his goal?? His retirement or box lunches?

Both. Executive actions have always been a bug of mine. They think short term when they report to stockholders (read congress in this case). The end result is that Boardman will show progress, we'll end up with box lunches and the next executive will come up with a "new idea" ("Let's bring back fine dining to attract more passengers!) and will receive similar accolades from that current congress who will then be in a mood to "improve Amtrak experience".

I always wanted to be a car fleet manager for a sales company with lots of reps with company cars. "I can save you money if you give me a big bonus!" Then I'll cut out the maintenance (oil changes & such) for a few years, collecting my big bonus then quit. My replacement will promise to make the cars last longer and sell at higher prices if he is promised a big bonus and given extra money "for improvements". He'll start doing maintenance and will quit after a few years before they fire him for overspending as compared to his predecessor (me). Given we become a team, he'll replace me at the next company I just pulled the same scam on. Boardman's replacement will do the same thing.

 

[FormerOBS]

Reinventing the wheel here. Before we had Superliners, the Auto Train meal service was buffet style. Passengers went through a tray line & filled their trays with salad, entrée, dessert, beverage, etc. At the end of the line, an OBS attendant picked up the tray & CARRIED THE TRAY TO THEIR TABLE FOR THEM. Reason: It was quicker & easier than cleaning up the mess. Yes, light meal service (a la lounge car service) can be served in a cardboard box for the passenger to carry. But a full dinner is an entirely different thing. Of course, it depends on whether Amtrak continues to serve something we would logically call a full dinner. When the Superliners arrived, it was acknowledged by one and all that the physical layout of the cars made it necessary to change from buffet service to something more like traditional sit-down service.

When I left Amtrak service, our standard practice was to serve dinners in the room (or coach seat) when necessary, but to insist that the meal had to be carried by an attendant. It was very rare that we would allow a passenger to carry a full tray of hot food through the cars, and on the rare occasions when we did it, it was to avoid an argument with the passenger. Of course, the passenger believed "the customer is always right," and we knew from experience that the old saying isn't always true.

By the way, I once had a discussion on this topic with one of my old bosses. He agreed that the customer is not always right. "But," he added, "the customer is always the customer." He left Amtrak several years ago. The Company could use that man's wisdom about now.

Tom

 

[neroden]

The panel of chefs Amtrak assembled created some really tasty dishes and the deserts were improving too!

They did. The official policy was that there was always a "fruit or nut option" for dessert and I had it *every single meal* because they were so good. You can't even get decent desserts in most restaurants any more, only overly-fatty, overly-sugared crap. Now Amtrak is the same as everywhere else.

 

[The Whistler]

I believe that the Autotrain business comes down to people making a choice between driving and taking the train. It is the job of the business to attract passengers to fill the trains. They have been doing this so far but word is getting out there that the train is not the experience that it used to be. As the service gets worse, I predict more people will eventually opt to drive. If the service gets better more people will take it.

The riding public isn't completely stupid and ready to accept anything that Amtrak does. People know the difference between bad and good, Right now business is still brisk, the service is deteriorating and prices are still going up (check them). Let us wait a year and see what results. For Florida travel the AT is no longer an option for me and some of my friends. I will still consider the Silver trains but I am keeping an eye on them as well.

 

[jis]

Whenever these discussions come up I remind myself again that after all Microsoft Windows, in spite of being an odd collection of cobbled together stuff with no consistency in anything has always been a huge success, and some have been waiting for decades for it to crash and burn. The trick is to find the sweet spot of the right level of service that people are willing to pay a certain amount of money for. Some succeed in figuring that out and others don;t. The only way to find out is to see how it goes.

For travel between the Northeast and Florida, which I now do once every month on an average, I mostly fly. It is usually the cheapest and most time efficient. If time permits I take the Silvers occasionally, always in Sleeper. If I am going for a trip longer than 5 days or so I take the AT in Sleeper. I would never drive all the way unless someone held a gun to my head giving me no other alternative.

 

[cirdan]

Whenever these discussions come up I remind myself again that after all Microsoft Windows, in spite of being an odd collection of cobbled together stuff with no consistency in anything has always been a huge success, and some have been waiting for decades for it to crash and burn. The trick is to find the sweet spot of the right level of service that people are willing to pay a certain amount of money for. Some succeed in figuring that out and others don;t. The only way to find out is to see how it goes.

For travel between the Northeast and Florida, which I now do once every month on an average, I mostly fly. It is usually the cheapest and most time efficient. If time permits I take the Silvers occasionally, always in Sleeper. If I am going for a trip longer than 5 days or so I take the AT in Sleeper. I would never drive all the way unless someone held a gun to my head giving me no other alternative.

I think most people on the Auto Train are not on a business trip but are vacationmakers or winter birds and thus have much more luggage than business travellers. One reason that people wish to take their own vehicle rather than hiring one at destination is that they can stow their luggage and leave it stowed rather than checking it in and maybe risking losing it or damage through handling. This makes the Auto Train about the most attarctive way of travelling for people in that category.

 

[Ryan]

It certainly does for us.

If Amtrak is the Windows of the passenger train world, what's the OS X of the passenger train world? MAGLEV? h34r:

 

[John Bredin]

How many people driving from the Northeast to Florida stop along the way at proper sit-down restaurants with silverware and chinaware? My guess is not many, as most either eat cold food they carry with them or stop at a fast-food joint and eat (surprise!) out of cardboard containers with plastic utensils.

While nobody likes to see reduced amenities, the idea that it will shift significant numbers of people from the AT to driving I-95 is a little absurd. The AT's attraction isn't in the food, it's in not being stuck in a car -- or driving a car -- for hours on end. And that ain't going away.

 

[jis]

It certainly does for us.

If Amtrak is the Windows of the passenger train world, what's the OS X of the passenger train world? MAGLEV? h34r:

Maybe AAF if it works out. We'll have to wait and see, just like we had to with OS X

BTW, I do agree with both cirdan and John Bredin.

And BTW, my trips to the northeast from Florida are seldom business trips. Business trips are to California, Texas, Germany and Israel. I have no specific business reason to travel to the northeast, except a once a year standards meeting in the DC area. It is all just family and friends and rail advocacy which is a hobby for me, not business.

 

[Guest]

So THAT is the kind of customer service one expects, when paying big bucks for "sleeper class"? Count me WAY out.

I operated two different dinner trains for nearly ten years. (Michigan Star Clipper, in Paw Paw, MD and the EnterTRAINment Line in Westminster, MD) The Clipper was very fancy, sit-down service, like you would expect in 3-4-5 star restaurant.

No problem. We can all easily count you WAY out, if you can't offer any solutions, only criticisms.

In the search for a solution, a solution to feed more people with still just one "food car", we can't keep clinging to the rose-colored-glasses view of the past. There is no way one can offer "very fancy, sit-down service" for an entire train full of passengers, and keep such to within just one "food car", having just a couple of sittings, keep the prices reasonable to even the coach passengers, and the costs within budget.

I think the idea of a buffet, with passengers using their existing seating arrangement is a good direction since cramming enough tables/chairs into a single "food car" to sit 1/3 to 1/2 of the total number of passengers at the same time, just isn't being realistic.

Though, I would be very open to other solutions that allow the feeding of all the passengers on a LD train. That's because I think customer volume is a key to getting the financials of any on-board food service under control.

Muahahahahahah!

You know, adding a closing comment like that just make it clear you are nothing but a jerk. It turns "rrdude" into simply "rrdude"

 

[Ryan]

So sayeth the guest hiding behind a wall anonymity.

If you had half a clue, you'd see that he's offered plenty of solutions in the past (some wildly impractical, others not). But hey, it's easier to throw stones than contribute meaningfully to the discussion.

 

[jebr]

No problem. We can all easily count you WAY out, if you can't offer any solutions, only criticisms.

I didn't realize that this wasn't a solution:

The EnterTRAINment line, when we first bought it, had "Table Cars", (old coaches with all coach seats removed, replaced with 4-top tables) and ONE "Kitchen Car". Everybody had to walk back to the "Kitchen Car" (It was a converted lunch-counter snack car) and go thru a cafeteria line, no trays, just plates. (disposable when we first bought it, quickly switched to china/linen/flatware) While our top speed on the Maryland Midland Railway was only about 25-35 for the DT, it was a fricking nightmare for patrons to walk, one-two-three-four cars sometimes, with one hand carrying the plate, jammed full of food, (so they wouldn't have to make that walk again) and the other hand for balance, and opening old sticky, heavy doors.

We very soon opted to lose a couple of tables in each "Table Car", and create a mini-buffet line in each "Table Car". It was a lot more work in set up and tear down, but we had far fewer accidents, and the food was far better quality and much easier to get for the pax.

You may not agree with it, Guest, but it would be a solution. It also points out a very evident flaw in your plan, which is that trains move. A lot. And having people walk through a train with plated food would either wind up with large amounts of waste (if you packaged it up like the to-go orders are) or you're going to have to repurpose at least one of the eliminated positions to a housekeeper to clean up after all the food that will spill.

 

[jis]

It has been repeatedly shown that the only way to mass serve plated food for consumption at ones seat, it has to be somehow delivered to the seat, whether it be using airline style food carts or whatever. There is no getting away from that, except for cafe car type food, which the passengers provably can carry to their seats from the cafe in cardboard cartons, no matter how much the train moves. Whether a TV dinner style packaged food can be carried to the seats without mishap is yet to be established. it may be quite possible, specially if the plastic cover is not removed while it is carried to the seat.

 

[PerRock]

It certainly does for us.

If Amtrak is the Windows of the passenger train world, what's the OS X of the passenger train world? MAGLEV? h34r:

I would say that's a apt comparison. The Maglav, is very nice & works very well; but only on select routes; just like macs.

So then, what would Linux be? The European rail networks?

peter

 

[rrdude]

I must have missed the point where the AT was being reduced to "just one food car".... Anyway, my point is that those that "pay thru the nose" should be offered more than those that choose (for whatever reason) to pay the minimum fare. I don't believe that the super-high sleeper fares should simply get you a flat bed, in a private room, with a very, very, mediocre meal, but it looks like I am in a minority here, and elsewhere in the world when it comes to expectations of service vs. price paid.

For me, "just riding the train" is not nearly enough. It needs to be clean, on-time, with friendly and helpful staff, and offer a selection of amenities. But again, I fear I am a dinosaur when it comes to those expectations.

But that's why the Adirondack, (sans [SIZE=13.63636302948px]dome-SSL-real lounge,[/SIZE] and real diner) the Cardinal, [SIZE=13.63636302948px](sans dome-SSL-real lounge, and real diner), the LSL, [/SIZE](sans real lounge), the Montrealer, [SIZE=13.63636302948px](sans real lounge and real diner), The Carolinian, the Piedmont, and any other train with a duration that extends past two meal periods, is a real BLAH for me. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Just riding a train, and watching the scenery go by, sitting in a coach seat, subjected to AmCafe food, hold zero, nada, none, appeal. (unless surrounded by other AU'ers, then "sign me up"!) [/SIZE]

The AT still appeals to me, because of the convenience of "packing the auto full of crap" and getting a bedroom en-suite with my family. But when my wife, who really almost dislikes trains, (she could care less how we get there, but did like riding the AT, when they had the wine tasting, better food, and complimentary wine with meal), when my wife throws in the towel, to me, that's "John Q. Public" throwing in the towel too.

I'd not summarily dismiss a buffet line, as Tom mentioned the AT was originally started with a buffet line, if the food selection was varied and of high quality. So there, there's a constructive suggestion for ya!

It just seems to me that while squeezing more and more money out of sleeper fares, Amtrak is applying that "extra" revenue to help defray overall cost of the train, instead of providing upgraded amenities to those who choose to pay more.

 

[cirdan]

No problem. We can all easily count you WAY out, if you can't offer any solutions, only criticisms.

I didn't realize that this wasn't a solution:

The EnterTRAINment line, when we first bought it, had "Table Cars", (old coaches with all coach seats removed, replaced with 4-top tables) and ONE "Kitchen Car". Everybody had to walk back to the "Kitchen Car" (It was a converted lunch-counter snack car) and go thru a cafeteria line, no trays, just plates. (disposable when we first bought it, quickly switched to china/linen/flatware) While our top speed on the Maryland Midland Railway was only about 25-35 for the DT, it was a fricking nightmare for patrons to walk, one-two-three-four cars sometimes, with one hand carrying the plate, jammed full of food, (so they wouldn't have to make that walk again) and the other hand for balance, and opening old sticky, heavy doors.

We very soon opted to lose a couple of tables in each "Table Car", and create a mini-buffet line in each "Table Car". It was a lot more work in set up and tear down, but we had far fewer accidents, and the food was far better quality and much easier to get for the pax.

You may not agree with it, Guest, but it would be a solution. It also points out a very evident flaw in your plan, which is that trains move. A lot. And having people walk through a train with plated food would either wind up with large amounts of waste (if you packaged it up like the to-go orders are) or you're going to have to repurpose at least one of the eliminated positions to a housekeeper to clean up after all the food that will spill.

It's actually not that rare to have hot food served at your seat. I was on a train in Germany once where I made use of this option. The attendant came through the train and asked if anybody wanted to order something (but not many people showed any interest). I did. When my food arrived it was on a proper earthenware plate with proper metal cutlery and my wine was served in a proper glass. All this was duly collected again at the end of the meal.

I've had it in Spain too, but there it was included in the fare.

 

[dlagrua]

The solution is to offer sleeper passengers the option of better food at a premium. IMO, sleeper class relies on the demographic of those that want/buy first class travel. As such you must cater to the highest revenue customer, give them what they pay for or eventually you will lose that audience. Perhaps the demand still exceeds the availability on the A/T but lets wait and see how many other people Amtrak alienates with the atrocious petty cuts in service.

Remember the A/T is there to offer a alternative over driving to Florida. When I can drive more economically, get better lodging , eat gourmet food on the way and do it for less than half the price what is the advantage to the train? As first class passengers we refuse to lower our standards.

Am I the only rail passenger that feels this way? From my conversations with friends, I don't believe so.

 

[Paulus]

Experience with at seat meal service by one British rail company was a substantial increase in business class tickets sold and in meals ordered. I'll be able to dig up the specifics later today.

 

[jis]

AFAICT the trend definitely is towards at seat meals rather than multiple fancy food service cars. I know many hate the thought of such, but that is the trend on non tourist operations, where usually space is at a premium for providing actual passenger capacity on limited capacity tracks. There is also no doubt that providing reasonable food service does increase overall revenue, and that is why reasonable rail operators typically do not worry about breaking out the food service costs as long as the net income rises. OTOH, it is unlikely that net income rises when you are charging rock bottom prices for basic Coach accommodation, so it makes sense to charge extra separately for food in those classes of operation.

OTOH it is easy to go overboard on the other side and get yourself in trouble with additional food service costs that are not recovered in additional ridership too. The issue is of striking the right balance. One of the biggest costs of food service is labor, and the challenge has always been to provide adequate food service while keeping the cost of labor in check.

 

[neroden]

There is no way one can offer "very fancy, sit-down service" for an entire train full of passengers, and keep such to within just one "food car", having just a couple of sittings

Well, in the old days, I am told that dining cars didn't have "sittings", they seated people continuously. All day! And they had "table cars", so that one kitchen could serve more like 100-150 people at once, rather than 48 people. (Auto Train actually has a table car.)

...so there's some bloody obvious improvements which wouldn't necessarily require any more labor. In order to be open longer,they would require moving into the late 20th century with "point of sale" inventory tracking, so that the staff aren't spending hours on inventory.

At-seat food service... would probably require more staffing.

Amtrak arguably understaffs its coach cars at the moment. I can't really imagine one coach attendant delivering meals to three full coaches; doesn't seem practical.

It's a bit of a toss-up in quality terms between at-seat service and "in dining car" service. However, it's not clear to me which is more expensive (given comparable food / china quality). I would guess that at-seat service is cheaper in shorter trains -- or if you've already got lots of coach attendants -- but I'd also guess that on a long train with few coach attendants, the dining car would be cheaper to operate.

 

[Anderson]

Well, the New Haven went to at-seat meal service replacing dining cars back in the 60s to cut costs. Then again, the New Haven's routes were inherently short enough that only one meal service would generally have been needed where applicable, and you could have done with pre-prepared meals like the Acela has now.

 

[cirdan]

There is no way one can offer "very fancy, sit-down service" for an entire train full of passengers, and keep such to within just one "food car", having just a couple of sittings

Well, in the old days, I am told that dining cars didn't have "sittings", they seated people continuously. All day! And they had "table cars", so that one kitchen could serve more like 100-150 people at once, rather than 48 people. (Auto Train actually has a table car.)

...so there's some bloody obvious improvements which wouldn't necessarily require any more labor. In order to be open longer,they would require moving into the late 20th century with "point of sale" inventory tracking, so that the staff aren't spending hours on inventory.

At-seat food service... would probably require more staffing.

Amtrak arguably understaffs its coach cars at the moment. I can't really imagine one coach attendant delivering meals to three full coaches; doesn't seem practical.

It's a bit of a toss-up in quality terms between at-seat service and "in dining car" service. However, it's not clear to me which is more expensive (given comparable food / china quality). I would guess that at-seat service is cheaper in shorter trains -- or if you've already got lots of coach attendants -- but I'd also guess that on a long train with few coach attendants, the dining car would be cheaper to operate.

How about, rather than meals being included, that sleeper passengers get a number of coupons with a value printed on them that can be used as payment in the dining car, with the coupons adding up to the average meal price. If people decide to spend more, they can pay the difference with their own money. If they decide to spend less, they can also use those coupons, say, in the cafteria car, or hold back on one meal but be lavish on the next. The coupons would have expiry dates printed on them to prevent people from hoarding them or selling them on.

This would also put an end to dining car staff (supposedly) tampering with orders to steal inventory. There would be no more excuse for inventory used not matching takings. It would also put an end to some drinks being free and others not as drinks would also be payed for with coupons.

Coupons would be issued together with tickets. thus QuikTrak machines would print them at the same time as printing tickets, and ticket offices similarly. They would have the name of the person to who they were issued printed on them to prevent fraud and recirculation.

No refund would be offered for unused coupons.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The coupon/meal ticket plan is excellent, it is used all over the world.

But since were talking about Amtrak here which can't even implement point of sale in its food service cars,it won't be considered by the bean counters that are holding meetings @ 60 Mass about how they can charge for such things as toilet paper and carry on luggage! Sarcasm intended.