Amtrak Food Service Lost $834 Million in 10 Years

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If a private vendor can do the job for $50 million, Amtrak can do the same job for $50 million - whatever profit the private company is making.

There's no magic in private industry that makes things cheaper.
 
If a private vendor can do the job for $50 million, Amtrak can do the same job for $50 million - whatever profit the private company is making.

There's no magic in private industry that makes things cheaper.
The "magic" is that everything that Amtrak does costs more.

Amtrak internal costs are so high that anything and everything they do costs far more than normal businesses. It is not just the on-board operation. It is all the back room layers and layers of management that run the on board operation, and the multiples of overheads and burdens that drive an already high cost structure through the roof. I worked with Amtrak on a business to business basis. Our rule of thumb for estimating Amtrak costs was to do a straight-up estimate and multiply by three. It was usually pretty close. On one job, our actual work used eight people at the site. Amtrak, just to support us as needed, used sixteen. They played cards all day and cost us over $100 an hour each (even though their direct wages were more like $35 per hour).

Amtrak is a boated, entrenched bureaucracy. They are not structured like a real business. That is why Amtrak cannot win commuter rail operation contracts (and has now given up even trying). Competing head to head with a real business, Amtrak has lost every time.

Having a food service company support rail is not exactly a new idea. The Santa Fe did it for years with the Fred Harvey Company. Maine is doing it now. It amazes me how some passenger rail supporters refuse to even consider the idea of having someone other than Amtrak run even an ancillary part of the operation. Wouldn't better food and service at a lower cost be a good thing for passenger rail? Who cares whose name is on the paychecks?
 
I'd rather fix the root cause of Amtrak inefficiency and have the organization benefit across the board than employ band-aid solutions around the edges.

Amtrak is supposed to be a real business. Structure it like one, run it like one, and everyone benefits. Outsourcing parts of the operation just allows what remains behind to continue on in their wasteful ways.
 
If a private vendor can do the job for $50 million, Amtrak can do the same job for $50 million - whatever profit the private company is making.

There's no magic in private industry that makes things cheaper.
Sure there is. First, competition. The government hates competition and is generally viewed as an entity willing to pay whatever price asked for any given product. Sure, they go through competitive bids on things, and allegedly pick the best bidder, but when it comes to the work getting done, you rarely hear the Gov'mt refusing to pay after complaining about overruns.

The private sector has an inherit interest in making money. That's why most businesses have gone from pension programs to 401(k)s.

It goes back to my Waffle House analogy. There are plenty of people willing to work at Waffle House for $2.30/hr plus tips. If they paid a FAIR wage in the diner, they could reduce a tremendous amount of cost, AND hire more people, and fill 24 tables with REVENUE producing guests from Coach.

EVERYTHING in the private sector is cheaper - especially when a lot of bureaucratic red tape is removed. That's why BOEING and other agencies are making space flight cheaper outside of NASA then they did within NASA. What they are doing is nowhere near the scope, but it can accomplish much of the same goals with a tremendous reduction in cost.
 
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Like I said, there is no reason that Amtrak couldn't do whatever a private business would come in and do. Rather than just give up and call in private industry (and allow them to skim off some of the $$$ in profit), lets force Amtrak to do it and not waste any money on profit to private shareholders.

It goes back to my Waffle House analogy. There are plenty of people willing to work at Waffle House for $2.30/hr plus tips. If they paid a FAIR wage in the diner, they could reduce a tremendous amount of cost, AND hire more people, and fill 24 tables with REVENUE producing guests from Coach.
Could they? Does the kitchen and chef have the capacity to turn out that number of meals? Sure, you can bring back the assistant cook/dishwasher, but there are physical constraints that you run up against in a kitchen that fits in a railcar.
 
I could go on a rant about things that hold back government efficiency, but I already did so last year.

You can read all about it here.
 
I'd rather fix the root cause of Amtrak inefficiency and have the organization benefit across the board than employ band-aid solutions around the edges.

Amtrak is supposed to be a real business. Structure it like one, run it like one, and everyone benefits. Outsourcing parts of the operation just allows what remains behind to continue on in their wasteful ways.
I agree. Amtrak should restructure like a real business. That is actually my point. If Amtrak were to restructure like a real business, among the many other changes, they would get out of the food and beverage business tomorrow. Real businesses concentrate on their core function (pardon the corporate-speak), and buy everything else from third parties. They do not clean their own buildings, they do not run their own cafeterias, or multiple other examples of things that a company must do but do are not the primary purpose of the organization. They let others do those things: firms who do those things as their primary function. That is how they cut down costs, management and overhead.

Food and beverage requires a management structure within Amtrak (actually, there are two running in parallel). Outsource it, and Amtrak food and beverage support is reduced to a minimal contract management function. A private contractor also has a management structure, but it is shared across multiple customers. That is one way the costs are lower.

This whole discussion is likely a moot point. I do not think there is even a slightest chance that Amtrak will move toward outsourced food and beverage service. There are just too many factions that are opposed to it, and some of those factions are not the least bit concerned with what is best for the promotion of passenger rail.
 
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I'd rather fix the root cause of Amtrak inefficiency and have the organization benefit across the board than employ band-aid solutions around the edges.

Amtrak is supposed to be a real business. Structure it like one, run it like one, and everyone benefits. Outsourcing parts of the operation just allows what remains behind to continue on in their wasteful ways.
I agree. Amtrak should restructure like a real business. That is actually my point. If Amtrak were to restructure like a real business, among the many other changes, they would get out of the food and beverage business tomorrow. Real businesses concentrate on their core function (pardon the corporate-speak), and buy everything else from third parties. They do not clean their own buildings, they do not run their own cafeterias, or multiple other examples of things that a company must do but do are not the primary purpose of the organization. They let others do those things: firms who do those things as their primary function. That is how they cut down costs, management and overhead.

Food and beverage requires a management structure within Amtrak (actually, there are two running in parallel). Outsource it, and Amtrak food and beverage support is reduced to a minimal contract management function. A private contractor also has a management structure, but it is shared across multiple customers. That is one way the costs are lower.

This whole discussion is likely a moot point. I do not think there is even a slightest chance that Amtrak will move toward outsourced food and beverage service. There are just too many factions that are opposed to it, and some of those factions are not the least bit concerned with what is best for the promotion of passenger rail.
I don't know if that will work.

Prior to privatization in the UK, train catering was outsourced to a private company. The first thing many privatized companies did was tear up the contracts and put their own catering back.

It's just a question of efficiency and of customer service. If the customer asks a waiter "are we running late" or "at what time are we arriving in xyz" and the response is "that's not my job", the customer doesn't appreciate that as quality service. Likewise if there are complaints. Would you be happy if you complained about bad food and Amtrak told you "not my problem". No, when I buy a sleeper ticket off Amtrak I am buying a complete service and not a mish-mash of different companies providing their own bit of service. It's bad enough with the freight railroads being responsible for dealys (and not having any obvious person I can complain to if I'm affected). There has to be a single entity responsible for the service and the buck has to stop there.

If you stayed at the Sheraton, would you be happy if the room service were outsourced to one company, and the breakfast to another, and if you wanted to complain the reception would give you some phone number of an Indian call center? Would you percieve that as quality service? Or as miserable patchwork?
 
This whole discussion is likely a moot point. I do not think there is even a slightest chance that Amtrak will move toward outsourced food and beverage service. There are just too many factions that are opposed to it, and some of those factions are not the least bit concerned with what is best for the promotion of passenger rail.
The issue stretches way beyond Amtrak. Witness what happens when Congress tries to specify that something like food service should be outsourced. Just watch the discussion that unfolds in this forum! Amtrak cannot operate as a private business while its board is appointed by a convoluted government process, unless of course some fortuitous accident takes place, like the Soviet Union appointing Gorbachev as Secretary General. :) And if it operates as a private business you will get all the pluses and minuses of same, unless properly regulated to keep it primarily in the passenger train service business. I.e. it will eventually trend towards (a) only those business segments that are actually more profitable (and contrary to all the frothing LD service has never been and never will be) and (b) trend towards other businesses initially ancillary to the core business that may be even more profitable... e.g. high value package service etc. Heck even as a publicly controlled entity it has attempted to delve into such from time to time.
 
The problem I wonder with privatization is how much will service remain at the current level (or even become better) for cheaper costs or will private companies try to reduce service in favor of making more money within the contract offered. You can see this in various industries like construction when they'll use cheaper but just adequate materials and take whatever remains as further profit.

I'm usually skeptical with privatization when Arizona's private prisons are costing taxpayers more than when they were state-run or when the private contractor that was suppose to finish renovating a subway station (NYC #7-Court Square) neglects to put the remaining wall panels in place as a couple examples.
 
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Like I said, there is no reason that Amtrak couldn't do whatever a private business would come in and do. Rather than just give up and call in private industry (and allow them to skim off some of the $$$ in profit), lets force Amtrak to do it and not waste any money on profit to private shareholders.
Exactly, if private industry can do it better and cheaper, then if I were an Amtrak executive I'd poach the people that know how to do it better and cheaper and hire them to do the same on Amtrak.

Knowledge and good people is what grows an industry, not accounting. You win if you have the best people on your team.
 
The problem I wonder with privatization is how much will service remain at the current level (or even become better) for cheaper costs or will private companies try to reduce service in favor of making more money within the contract offered. You can see this in various industries like construction when they'll use cheaper but just adequate materials and take whatever remains as further profit.
We can observe in the UK that increasingly the franchises are not being won by genuine private companies, but that state companies as in the state railroads of France, German and Holland are winning franchises in the UK.

So much for the private sector being better at everything.
 
Like I said, there is no reason that Amtrak couldn't do whatever a private business would come in and do. Rather than just give up and call in private industry (and allow them to skim off some of the $$$ in profit), lets force Amtrak to do it and not waste any money on profit to private shareholders.
Exactly, if private industry can do it better and cheaper, then if I were an Amtrak executive I'd poach the people that know how to do it better and cheaper and hire them to do the same on Amtrak.

Knowledge and good people is what grows an industry, not accounting. You win if you have the best people on your team.
Amtrak, as a quasi-governmental organization, would never be able to pay a high enough salary to poach the people from other industries.
 
Like I said, there is no reason that Amtrak couldn't do whatever a private business would come in and do. Rather than just give up and call in private industry (and allow them to skim off some of the $$$ in profit), lets force Amtrak to do it and not waste any money on profit to private shareholders.
Exactly, if private industry can do it better and cheaper, then if I were an Amtrak executive I'd poach the people that know how to do it better and cheaper and hire them to do the same on Amtrak.

Knowledge and good people is what grows an industry, not accounting. You win if you have the best people on your team.
Amtrak, as a quasi-governmental organization, would never be able to pay a high enough salary to poach the people from other industries.
But if Amtrak subcontracted to the same company, wouldn't they also be paying their salaries in addition to the shareholders' dividends?

Or look at it from a different side. if they are unable to deliver the efficiency that offsets their higher salary, then employing them is not a good proposition, regardless of whether it is Amtrak or private industrry that is hiring them.
 
Like I said, there is no reason that Amtrak couldn't do whatever a private business would come in and do. Rather than just give up and call in private industry (and allow them to skim off some of the $$$ in profit), lets force Amtrak to do it and not waste any money on profit to private shareholders.
Exactly, if private industry can do it better and cheaper, then if I were an Amtrak executive I'd poach the people that know how to do it better and cheaper and hire them to do the same on Amtrak.

Knowledge and good people is what grows an industry, not accounting. You win if you have the best people on your team.
Amtrak, as a quasi-governmental organization, would never be able to pay a high enough salary to poach the people from other industries.
But if Amtrak subcontracted to the same company, wouldn't they also be paying their salaries in addition to the shareholders' dividends?

Or look at it from a different side. if they are unable to deliver the efficiency that offsets their higher salary, then employing them is not a good proposition, regardless of whether it is Amtrak or private industrry that is hiring them.
You are assuming those higher paid people at the private company are working only on the Amtrak contract. They would likely be working for multiple customers of the company. Those same people working at Amtrak would only be serving Amtrak.
 
It's just a question of efficiency and of customer service. If the customer asks a waiter "are we running late" or "at what time are we arriving in xyz" and the response is "that's not my job", the customer doesn't appreciate that as quality service. Likewise if there are complaints. Would you be happy if you complained about bad food and Amtrak told you "not my problem". No, when I buy a sleeper ticket off Amtrak I am buying a complete service and not a mish-mash of different companies providing their own bit of service. It's bad enough with the freight railroads being responsible for dealys (and not having any obvious person I can complain to if I'm affected). There has to be a single entity responsible for the service and the buck has to stop there.

If you stayed at the Sheraton, would you be happy if the room service were outsourced to one company, and the breakfast to another, and if you wanted to complain the reception would give you some phone number of an Indian call center? Would you percieve that as quality service? Or as miserable patchwork?
Nobody said outsourcing a certain function would mean that responsibility for the function would also be outsourced.

To take one example, airlines outsource tons of functions (including actual flying). If you check-in for a Delta Airlines flight at some small outstation, and fly a regional jet to the hub, odds are you could go almost the entire trip, from check-in at the airport right until you step off the jetway at the hub before you see your first actual Delta Airlines employee. The ticket counter agents, gate agents, baggage handlers, pilots and flight attendants probably all work for a different company (possibly even several different companies depending on which specific function you're dealing with).

If a passenger has a complaint about that flight, who do they call? SkyWest? Comair? Compass? Pinnacle? Expressjet? Republic Airways? Have most people even heard of any of those airlines? No. They call Delta, and Delta handles the issue. Why? Because Delta's name is on the ticket, and Delta's reputation is at stake.

I don't see why a hypothetical contracted food service operation would be any different.
 
I think the better question is whether Amtrak will be able to do anything about the complaints regarding the contracted company. Depending on how the contract is agreed to, they may very well be able to do nothing but wait until it expires.

(Edit: Which is what pretty much has to happen for the concessions at my soccer team...)
 
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Nobody said outsourcing a certain function would mean that responsibility for the function would also be outsourced.

To take one example, airlines outsource tons of functions (including actual flying). If you check-in for a Delta Airlines flight at some small outstation, and fly a regional jet to the hub, odds are you could go almost the entire trip, from check-in at the airport right until you step off the jetway at the hub before you see your first actual Delta Airlines employee. The ticket counter agents, gate agents, baggage handlers, pilots and flight attendants probably all work for a different company (possibly even several different companies depending on which specific function you're dealing with).

If a passenger has a complaint about that flight, who do they call? SkyWest? Comair? Compass? Pinnacle? Expressjet? Republic Airways? Have most people even heard of any of those airlines? No. They call Delta, and Delta handles the issue. Why? Because Delta's name is on the ticket, and Delta's reputation is at stake.

I don't see why a hypothetical contracted food service operation would be any different.
This is an important difference though. Those agents also wear Delta uniforms and as such they represent Delta. Whether they are actually employed directly by Delta or by some holding agency acting for Delta doesn't really matter. It's nbot as if the stewardess serving you your coffee on a Delta flight will wear a Starbucks uniform, thus confusing you as to who is responisble. This type of background outsourcing happens on Amtrak too, for example the bus services are run by third parties on behalf of Amtrak. I also thought (but could be I was mistaken) that the food is also provided and delivered trainside by an external company and that all the Amtrak staff do is the final preparations and serving (the same happens on airlines by the way). So what exactly would it mean to privatize the food service? That the staff serving it would also be on the payroll of a private company? If it's just that, I don't see what the fuss is about. But if they're going to be wearing the uniforms of a private company, that's a development I don't like. I also doubt a change like that would massively impact the balance sheet
 
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This is an important difference though. Those agents also wear Delta uniforms and as such they represent Delta. Whether they are actually employed directly by Delta or by some holding agency acting for Delta doesn't really matter. It's nbot as if the stewardess serving you your coffee on a Delta flight will wear a Starbucks uniform, thus confusing you as to who is responisble. This type of background outsourcing happens on Amtrak too, for example the bus services are run by third parties on behalf of Amtrak. I also thought (but could be I was mistaken) that the food is also provided and delivered trainside by an external company and that all the Amtrak staff do is the final preparations and serving (the same happens on airlines by the way). So what exactly would it mean to privatize the food service? That the staff serving it would also be on the payroll of a private company? If it's just that, I don't see what the fuss is about. But if they're going to be wearing the uniforms of a private company, that's a development I don't like.
Flight attendants of regional carriers wear uniforms with the name of their carrier, not the major for whom they are contracted to fly (and how many passengers could actually identify an airline by the crew uniforms anyway? How many even pay attention?).

Regardless, issues such as what uniforms they wear are so minor as to not even really be relevant to the discussion.
 
I think the better question is whether Amtrak will be able to do anything about the complaints regarding the contracted company. Depending on how the contract is agreed to, they may very well be able to do nothing but wait until it expires.

(Edit: Which is what pretty much has to happen for the concessions at my soccer team...)
exactly.

I'm all for private services but in my observation its where private and public services interface that waste and ineffciency occurs.

A real private company, for example MacDonalds, has to serve the customer, and if the customer isn't happy he won't come back. So they have to fight for every customer.

A private company that has a lock-in agreement with a public company only has to fulfill some agreed KPI's (and there is often room for worming out and creative misinterpretation of contracts) with scant regard of what the end customer thinks or how the service is appreciated.

A train isn't a high street. There aren't different restaurants the end customer can choose from. There is no incentive for the service supplier to improve. So then at least I like to see a direct chain of command so Amtrak can fire employees who don't do their job right. If there is a private company in between, there's very little they can do.

Hence my moan that private and public don't mix.
 
Make sure the contract specifies some quality goals, implemented in part by response to customer complaints.
 
So what exactly would it mean to privatize the food service? That the staff serving it would also be on the payroll of a private company? If it's just that, I don't see what the fuss is about. But if they're going to be wearing the uniforms of a private company, that's a development I don't like. I also doubt a change like that would massively impact the balance sheet
The fuss would be about being on a different payroll which has its effects on individual pays and also on issues related to Unions retirement etc. Of course any cost savings is not going to magically materialize from nowhere. Someone will get paid less than they do now. One could argue that that is the way it should be, but those that stand the risk of getting paid less may tend to disagree. That is what the fuss usually is all about, regardless of whether what each is getting paid legitimately or otherwise, and the work environment that they enjoy or not, is right or not.
 
Let me present another example.

I work for a big corporation, and our IT service is outsourced. basically the company we outsource to runs the network, the servers, the databases, te hardware, a lot of stuff.

We are pretty unhappy with their service. And the discontent goes all the way to the top. Even our CEO complains.

But there's nothing anybody can do as many years ago we signed a lock-in agreement and its not due for renewal for another several years.

They are a private company making a lot of money with lousy service, but we can't terminate because nominally they are fulfilling what was agreed. It's just that they're stopping there and not doing an iota more.

Now before we oustourced we had our own IT department. The people were actually employed by the company and the newtork and hardware etc were owned by the company. If we thought something wasn't good enough we could go to our managers and present a business case or some good arguments why we needed more or better stuff and we would get the money and it would happen. Now they tell us "the contract says we get this so we get this".

Nominally, we save money because this company is cheaper than when we did it ourselves, but in terms of our overall productivity etc, I doubt that that is still the case.
 
I think the better question is whether Amtrak will be able to do anything about the complaints regarding the contracted company. Depending on how the contract is agreed to, they may very well be able to do nothing but wait until it expires.

(Edit: Which is what pretty much has to happen for the concessions at my soccer team...)
exactly.

I'm all for private services but in my observation its where private and public services interface that waste and ineffciency occurs.

A real private company, for example MacDonalds, has to serve the customer, and if the customer isn't happy he won't come back. So they have to fight for every customer.

A private company that has a lock-in agreement with a public company only has to fulfill some agreed KPI's (and there is often room for worming out and creative misinterpretation of contracts) with scant regard of what the end customer thinks or how the service is appreciated.

A train isn't a high street. There aren't different restaurants the end customer can choose from. There is no incentive for the service supplier to improve. So then at least I like to see a direct chain of command so Amtrak can fire employees who don't do their job right. If there is a private company in between, there's very little they can do.

Hence my moan that private and public don't mix.
What you describe is a poorly executed and managed contract. A operation well managed from both the owner and contractor standpoint would have service levels as a fundemental aspect of the contract. This is not just in theory. It is in place right now on Amtrak with the Downeaster. Here is an exerpt from the written testimony of Patricia Quinn, the Executive Director of the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (NNEPRA) before the House committee:

NNEPRA monitors the financial performance of the Downeaster Café very closely. In addition to receiving daily reports regarding sales, the monthly P&L statement provided by Epicurean [the food service contractor] details every transaction made for the Downeaster Café. We track labor cost, food purchases, spoilage, Business Class comps and many other line items. On a quarterly basis, we meet formally with Epicurean management to review operations, menus, and financial performance and have even established an incentive program if the financial and service goals of the Café are met.

While it would not work for all, the Downeaster Café model is one which I think other states could consider, particularly in light of the pending implementation of PRIIA 209 [the federal law that requires states to cover all the costs of state-supported service]. It is an opportunity for states to have input or even take responsibility for an element of the passenger rail business which has both financial and service related impacts.

NNEPRA considers the Downeaster Café to be a critical component of the Downeaster service and a success story. CSI [customer service index] scores for the Downeaster are consistently higher than the Amtrak overall average in categories of food quality, café personnel, and overall café experience. In FY12, Downeaster passengers rated their overall café experience 5% higher than other Amtrak services. I believe this is directly related to NNEPRA’s involvement in the service, Epicurean’s dedication to helping us achieve our goals, and Amtrak’s ongoing partnership and support. Together, we constantly strive to find ways to increase revenues, reduce expenses, and improve customer service. It’s our standard of excellence.
At least in Maine, public and private mix very well.
 
Let me present another example.

I work for a big corporation, and our IT service is outsourced. basically the company we outsource to runs the network, the servers, the databases, te hardware, a lot of stuff.

We are pretty unhappy with their service. And the discontent goes all the way to the top. Even our CEO complains.

But there's nothing anybody can do as many years ago we signed a lock-in agreement and its not due for renewal for another several years.

They are a private company making a lot of money with lousy service, but we can't terminate because nominally they are fulfilling what was agreed. It's just that they're stopping there and not doing an iota more.

Now before we oustourced we had our own IT department. The people were actually employed by the company and the newtork and hardware etc were owned by the company. If we thought something wasn't good enough we could go to our managers and present a business case or some good arguments why we needed more or better stuff and we would get the money and it would happen. Now they tell us "the contract says we get this so we get this".

Nominally, we save money because this company is cheaper than when we did it ourselves, but in terms of our overall productivity etc, I doubt that that is still the case.
At the end of the day it is the responsibility of your company's management to get the service they believe they need and are willing to pay for. I am sure the company outsourced to would be happy to provide additional service for additional money, which your management is unwilling to pay, and use the contract as just an excuse to try to deflect responsibility elsewhere. Afterall why should the service provider provide a service for free that was not part of the original contract, one that was entered into by the same management at your company to save money? Having been on both sides of such relationships, this appears to be a case of normal games that people play. Your company's management would appear to be the primary party at fault in this case, manifested in their inability to manage contracts to get the services that they actually need.
 
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