Amtrak Food Service Lost $834 Million in 10 Years

[Shanghai]

Amtrak lost $84.5 million selling food and beverages last year and $833.8 million over 10 years, House Transportation and Infrastructure Chairman John Mica said, calling for a “better way” to run those operations.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-02/amtrak-s-food-lost-taxpayers-834-million-in-10-years-mica-says.html

Yeah what better way do you have in mind. get rid of food service all together? Cut even more food staff? Only serve peanuts?

That's minuscule when compared with the Federal Government loss (deficit) of nearly 7 Trillion over

the past 10 years!!

 

[Ryan]

The price of food in the AmCafe is already ridiculous, and there are not enough paying customers in the diner for a reasonable raise to have much of an effect.

Must vary from one route to another. EVERY time I took a train trip, they had to call diners in shifts because they could never fit more than about 20 percent in the car at one time.

That's because most of them are sleeper passengers, who don't specifically pay for their food, and thus would not be affected by a price increase.

Sleeper passengers do pay for their meals. They're priced into the ticket price and a portion of that ticket revenue is allocated to the dining costs.

So, if for instance the dining car raises its prices, the sleeping car ticket prices will rise as well?

The amount of ticket revenue allocated to the dining car can be adjusted separately from the ticket price itself.

So, maybe.

 

[RRUserious]

There's a point where the prices are too high to be practical. For instance, $2 for a can of soda is very high, but any more would drive almost everyone away - so revenues would go DOWN instead of up.

Perhaps, but at some point where it stabilizes, you'd not have a net loss. Perhaps at some point, you don't even have a dining car, maybe not even hot food, but if you break even, then the service has balanced demand against the cost of meeting that demand. You can always goose demand and revenue by selling at a loss. But in a private business, you go broke. In a publicly-subsidized business, you give political ammunition to those who don't even want the train, let alone the food service.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

Amtrak lost $84.5 million selling food and beverages last year and $833.8 million over 10 years, House Transportation and Infrastructure Chairman John Mica said, calling for a “better way” to run those operations.

http://www.bloomberg...-mica-says.html

Yeah what better way do you have in mind. get rid of food service all together? Cut even more food staff? Only serve peanuts?

Uh Oh! Now we've made the big time!

The article has trended on Yahoo!!!

 

[sldispatcher]

There's a point where the prices are too high to be practical. For instance, $2 for a can of soda is very high, but any more would drive almost everyone away - so revenues would go DOWN instead of up.

Wouldn't fountains take care of this problem? People don't seem to mind paying $2.50 or $3.00 for a soda at a regular establishment on land...is there just no space to put in a simple fountain operation as opposed to the cans?

 

[EMDF9A]

There's a point where the prices are too high to be practical. For instance, $2 for a can of soda is very high, but any more would drive almost everyone away - so revenues would go DOWN instead of up.

Wouldn't fountains take care of this problem? People don't seem to mind paying $2.50 or $3.00 for a soda at a regular establishment on land...is there just no space to put in a simple fountain operation as opposed to the cans?

The issue with fountains is the potable water needed to make them function. Yes it could be done, but it would add weight to the cars as well as labor to effectivly maintain & sanitize the systems. Would the maintenance costs be offset by increased profit & less disposal of the cans? I dont know... but it might be something worth exploring.

 

[Naismith]

If it is true that 2 separate departments are involved in managing the food service component of Amtrak, its unlikely any progress will be achieved. Each department will blame the other for any problems. If the food service management could be consolidated under one department, accountability for provision of service would be more likely.

However, having worked for the federal government, the turf wars that this would provoke could be insurmountable.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

One way to fit more people in the diner is to add a extra cook and server but we know amtrak can't do that thanks to congress and rep mica. Those 2 are the reason the dining car is the way it is but they are too stupid to see that then they whine cause amtrak looses money on food. But one thing they can do is crack down on lazy LSA who turn people away cause they rather text their BF or GF while on the job.

Why do you think LSAs are texting on the job?

"Amtrak Food Service Lost $xxx Million"? I would like know how much highways lost in the same period?

[slaps hand on head] That's right - we taxpayers do not subsidize highways at all!

It's free!

I once saw that Interstate highways get over $400,000,000,000 of money from the government. Forgot the source. Now just wait for the numbers when you add up U.S., state, and county highways, and other roads.....

I really dread the AmChow- by the second day I'd rather be eating pretzels in my room. And on a recent CZ trip the dining car was so dysfunctional it took almost 2 hours to get dinner and get out, with only half the tables full. And the LSA was griping over the PA that he wanted more sleeper passengers to come in. The last day I ate my own snacks and used the lounge car. I'm sure that the process could be streamlined a little bit but I don't want to have to eat Subway chain turkey products either.

I don't see what the problem is with Amtrak food. Much better than McDonalds. What do you not like about the food?

Surely you jest?

I know some people put the hammer down on the convection oven items, but even airlines serve convection oven items in business/first that far outdo anything on Amtrak. I love travel by rail. I support Amtrak (but not necessarily some of their policies), but I'm not going to rave about their cuisine...sorry.

I was not raving about their cuisine, but it's not as bad as "I'd rather be eating pretzels in my room."

 

[Shawn Ryu]

That's because most of them are sleeper passengers, who don't specifically pay for their food, and thus would not be affected by a price increase.

Probably the major factor of food service losing money,

There is no way Amtrak does not make profit off the food they actually get money for.

 

[Guestlsa]

How can any food service be expected to generate a profitable income when they are only open for 2 hours per meal, paid 12 hours per day, at a wage that is far above meager (plus the priciest on on the menu 3 times a day), then pay their room and board for a couple of nights at their end stops.

Wow! Exaggerate much!

Breakfast, 6:30-10:00am. Report time for breakfast is 5:30am. 5:00am for the chefs. Lunch, 11:00 or 11:30-3:00 on most trains. Barely any time to eat your own breakfast between breakfast and lunch and then be ready for lunch. Dinner, 5:00-9:00pm, which during summer months typically goes until 10:00pm. Report time for dinner is 4:00pm. Add one hour minimum for clean-up afterwards. I'm sorry but your post is just plain stupid.

Now consider the fact that these people work the whole day from 5:00-5:30am until closing time with, according to the dining car schedule about 3 hours in between meals which most of that time is eat up by cleaning up and setting up. When you do get a break and when it is time to quit, there's nowhere to go. You're still stuck on a train for two days.

At turn-around points, Amtrak pays on average, except in the more expensive cities, $75 per night for a room. I've seen CLC charges as low as $26 per night and as high as $120. Per diem is about $24 per day and it's split up into meal segments so you only get the part that applies to when you are in town. Try eating dinner, breakfast and lunch in downtown Chicago and see how far $24 goes.

Thank you . I work service attendant on train 4 . my report time is 4 pm I always come in early so i can set up but guess what time I go to bed ? 12 am! Have to be at 430 to be in diner by 515. Do what kind of question I get when I'm working though to diner? What time is breakfast ? No good morning . Eat ? Good luck . They already asking bout lunch .train more than 6 hours late ? Still serving and only paid for LATE TRAIN. Do I enjoy what I love yes. I had good pax and annoying and yes it comes with job but guess I earn every penny .

 

[Anderson]

That's because most of them are sleeper passengers, who don't specifically pay for their food, and thus would not be affected by a price increase.

Probably the major factor of food service losing money,

There is no way Amtrak does not make profit off the food they actually get money for.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "the food they actually get money for". They're definitely charging more for food than they pay for acquiring it for resale, yes, but what about the "burdened cost"?

Also, there's another hole in the accounting that I'm not sure of: How do they account for the cost of employee meals? Do they zero out the price? Or "bill" an internal "benefits" account? The latter would probably be correct, but there's a chance that they do the former, and on an LD train that can be quite a few OBS (SCAs, Coach Attendants, and food service staff could easily be 8-10 on a train).

Another point on the "balancing costs against demand": Part of the problem with cutting food service back is, and always has been, the loss of business due to the cuts. There's a respectable chance that a non-trivial minority of passengers wouldn't take the train without the ability to get at least one decent hot meal during a 3-4 meal trip. I know of at least one person off the top of my mind who was thoroughly not amused by the quality of food on board one of the Silvers during what I believe was the bottom of the Warrington-era cuts (and who hasn't traveled by train since, in no small part due to the experience), and while I will readily concede that this is an anecdote and not scientific, it does make a difference.

Mind you, this doesn't dictate the presence of two FSCs (though on some longer trains that certainly becomes a necessity due to the sheer number of passengers on board)...it would seem to be quite possible to follow a diner-club model of some sort or to have you place your order and pick it up at a counter and then go to a table. It wouldn't be nearly as nice, true, but the point is that your operating model can be altered without absolutely massacring the quality of the food on board.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Amtrak lost $84.5 million selling food and beverages last year and $833.8 million over 10 years, House Transportation and Infrastructure Chairman John Mica said, calling for a “better way” to run those operations.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-02/amtrak-s-food-lost-taxpayers-834-million-in-10-years-mica-says.html

Yeah what better way do you have in mind. get rid of food service all together? Cut even more food staff? Only serve peanuts?

That's minuscule when compared with the Federal Government loss (deficit) of nearly 7 Trillion over

the past 10 years!!

Someone has a grudge. And yet no ones worried about the governments spending yet everyone is doing there best to get rid of amtrak over there food losses. Whats wrong with this pictue.

 

[cirdan]

One way to fit more people in the diner is to add a extra cook and server but we know amtrak can't do that thanks to congress and rep mica. Those 2 are the reason the dining car is the way it is but they are too stupid to see that then they whine cause amtrak looses money on food. But one thing they can do is crack down on lazy LSA who turn people away cause they rather text their BF or GF while on the job.

I've noticed that on the LD Superliners there are actually tables on both sides of the central service area/stairs, but they only seat people on one side, and then call them to the meal in shifts. Why don't they seat both sides? I guess because that would require more serving staff so its more efficient to serve in shifts. No issue with that. But why then do they have these extra tables? That space could be put to a different use, maybe one generating more revenue?

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Amtrak lost $84.5 million selling food and beverages last year and $833.8 million over 10 years, House Transportation and Infrastructure Chairman John Mica said, calling for a “better way” to run those operations.

http://www.bloomberg...-mica-says.html

Yeah what better way do you have in mind. get rid of food service all together? Cut even more food staff? Only serve peanuts?

That's minuscule when compared with the Federal Government loss (deficit) of nearly 7 Trillion over

the past 10 years!!

Someone has a grudge. And yet no ones worried about the governments spending yet everyone is doing there best to get rid of amtrak over there food losses. Whats wrong with this pictue.

It shows how biased and delusional some people are these days.

 

[EB_OBS]

One way to fit more people in the diner is to add a extra cook and server but we know amtrak can't do that thanks to congress and rep mica. Those 2 are the reason the dining car is the way it is but they are too stupid to see that then they whine cause amtrak looses money on food. But one thing they can do is crack down on lazy LSA who turn people away cause they rather text their BF or GF while on the job.

I've noticed that on the LD Superliners there are actually tables on both sides of the central service area/stairs, but they only seat people on one side, and then call them to the meal in shifts. Why don't they seat both sides? I guess because that would require more serving staff so its more efficient to serve in shifts. No issue with that. But why then do they have these extra tables? That space could be put to a different use, maybe one generating more revenue?

Amtrak's official policy for seating is a "staggered seating" for meals where reservations are taken, such as dinner and lunch on some trains. Each server is supposed to work no more than 4 tables or 16 people, however on busy trains most servers will work 5 tables with 20 people.

Now imagine you call in 15 tables or 60 people all at once for dinner. For dinner the server starts at table number one and gets salads and bread and takes beverage orders, delivers that to the table and then proceeds to take the rest of that tables order. If on average that takes five minutes then by the time that server is done with the fourth table and ready to move on to the fifth table, those people have now been sitting there for twenty or twenty-five minutes and they are usually not very happy about it.

It makes absolutely no sense at all to fill up the every table in the diner all at once for dinner. Yet, passengers walk in all the time and ask why is only 1/2 the tables being used. They don't understand and sometimes they even think the dining car crew is just being lazy and not seating as many people as they could. If they came back in 15 or 30 minutes, depending upon the interval used, they would then see every table in use.

As a dining car LSA I always used a 15 minute seating interval for dinner and would seat only two tables per server per reservation time. This gives each server two tables and eight passengers and then fifteen minutes later they get two more tables and eight more passengers to serve. It's extremely efficient. Generally for dinner my seating times would be 5:00, 5:15, 6:45 & 7:00 and 8:30 & 8:45. That gives each seating 1:30 to be done and gives the servers 15 minutes to clean up and re-set for the next seating. Every LSA does it a little bit different. Most use a 30 minutes seating interval but I always thought that was too much time and your servers are then just standing around waiting for the next seating. I think 15 minutes is perfect.

 

[Ispolkom]

You assume wrong. In CT the lottery vending machines have a scanner on them. You must scan your drivers license before you buy a lottery ticket. Unknown if this can be used for a 50 state thing, but the equipment is out there.

Lottery tickets aren't liquor. In my experience, liquor law is the screwiest, most contradictory set of state laws in the U.S. When did South Carolina bars start selling liquor by the drink from 750 ml bottles, rather than single shot airline bottles? What states allow you to drink underaged in a bar, as long as it's with your parents? Are there still Texas counties where bars require you to buy memberships? Why couldn't US Airways serve booze on airliners flying over New Mexico?

You're never going to have a vending machine selling alcohol on a interstate train in this country.

 

[Anderson]

You assume wrong. In CT the lottery vending machines have a scanner on them. You must scan your drivers license before you buy a lottery ticket. Unknown if this can be used for a 50 state thing, but the equipment is out there.

Lottery tickets aren't liquor. In my experience, liquor law is the screwiest, most contradictory set of state laws in the U.S. When did South Carolina bars start selling liquor by the drink from 750 ml bottles, rather than single shot airline bottles? What states allow you to drink underaged in a bar, as long as it's with your parents? Are there still Texas counties where bars require you to buy memberships? Why couldn't US Airways serve booze on airliners flying over New Mexico?

You're never going to have a vending machine selling alcohol on a interstate train in this country.

Blame Prohibition (or, more properly, its repeal). As part of the compromise to repeal Prohibition (I suspect there were just enough states that would have opposed repeal without a concession of some sort, and I suspect that there was a concern that a repeal might have gotten spun by the courts to evolve authority away from the states and therefore require legalizing the sale of alcohol), states have near-absolute control over liquor laws. In turn, this means that in some states (due to home rule provisions or allowances under Dillon Rule states) county rules vary wildly.

 

[pebbleworm]

I was not raving about their cuisine, but it's not as bad as "I'd rather be eating pretzels in my room."

It was pretty bad, and the service eastbound out of Emeryville on July 3rd was just plain weird. And westbound out of Chicago on July 15 was not much better- no seatings earlier than 8:00 available for dinner in the sleepers? Two hours to get in and out of the diner? And on both legs there were a couple of entrees that were just plain inedible (a "specialty sandwich" and the pasta at lunch). And I don't know what they did to the dinner vegetables, but it wasn't right. A Lean Cuisine would have been preferable for every meal but breakfast, and I've been taking long distance trains frequently for 5 years. Next trip I'm packing my own edible food, even though I do enjoy meeting people in the diner. The only safe bet, if you could stand the wait was the kid's hot dog. I'll stick with breakfast only unless things improve. ALTHOUGH I've been happy with the food in the Coast Starlight parlor car, this Zephyr trip was pretty bad on the AmChow front.

 

[Trogdor]

You assume wrong. In CT the lottery vending machines have a scanner on them. You must scan your drivers license before you buy a lottery ticket. Unknown if this can be used for a 50 state thing, but the equipment is out there.

Lottery tickets aren't liquor. In my experience, liquor law is the screwiest, most contradictory set of state laws in the U.S. When did South Carolina bars start selling liquor by the drink from 750 ml bottles, rather than single shot airline bottles? What states allow you to drink underaged in a bar, as long as it's with your parents? Are there still Texas counties where bars require you to buy memberships? Why couldn't US Airways serve booze on airliners flying over New Mexico?

You're never going to have a vending machine selling alcohol on a interstate train in this country.

Not only that, but those serving alcohol have the authority/duty to deny service to those who are too intoxicated. A machine couldn't do that.

 

[RRUserious]

You could make the controls on the machine too complicated for someone whose had enough already.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Not all OBS or LSAs are lazy but there are reports on this forum of some who do nothing but sit on their a$$ the entire time refuse to help the overworked staff or turn people away when not even half the diner is full.

 

[pebbleworm]

Where else are you gonna eat? I'll be packing food on my next trip.

 

[sldispatcher]

It's way past time to consider private vendors for food and sleeping car service.

If doing so would allow continued offerings of these areas and supply Amtrak with a little operational revenue while minimizing the exposure..I'm all for it.

I'm a believer in passenger rail, but not the way the last 10 years or even 30 years have been done.

Of course, in this forum, one generally gets slammed for proposing anything that involves private enterprise or reduction in the government subsidy....There is no doubt that passenger rail requires some form of subsidy...BUT, if you want it to thrive....we need the ageing yuppies/generation X'rs to embrace the concept. They are not going to do so at the current level of relatively poor service and almost inedible cuisine. You can blame it on "cutbacks" all you want. That isn't going to change.

Time to push for a change on how the business is run. Hybridize the system...let Amtrak be in charge of pulling the train and basic transportation (coaches, and maybe a 1/2 slumbercoach arrangement) and let private enterprise take over the remainder....food/sleepers.

I vote for the Coast Starlight to be the first to be changed over.

Flame away...

 

[Ryan]

You're assuming that it's possible to make a profit off of food service/sleeping car service on a train. If that assumption is true, those profits should go towards reducing the amount of subsidy needed by Amtrak. If that assumption is false, no business will want to get involved.

Either way, privitization isn't the answer.

 

[PRR 60]

You're assuming that it's possible to make a profit off of food service/sleeping car service on a train. If that assumption is true, those profits should go towards reducing the amount of subsidy needed by Amtrak. If that assumption is false, no business will want to get involved.

Either way, privitization isn't the answer.

Privatization does not make an overall profitability assumption at all. If Amtrak loses $80 million per year on food and beverage, and a private vender could do the same job for $50 million, it would still be a net loss of $50 million to Amtrak, but a $30 million gain to the bottom line.

Business should do what they do well. Amtrak runs a railroad, not a chain of mobile food outlets. Maine has proven that outsourced, private food service on trains works.