Amtrak Food Service Lost $834 Million in 10 Years

[Anderson]

I would argue that American Orient Express was, if neither terribly affordable nor useful as functional transportation, at least modestly successful. IIRC, it wasn't that AOE itself failed...it's that it got used as a piggybank by a corporate parent that also ran a railcar-building business which failed, bringing AOE down with it.

 

[cirdan]

One privatized option is the New Pullman service that will start in the fall. Definitely not cheap, but more affordable tha the late American Orient Express. There is a thread here:

http://discuss.amtra...are-now-posted/

A price list here:

http://www.travelpul...t1_FINAL_SR.pdf

And just for fun, here is an interesting take on the American Orient Express:

http://www.snagfilms...e/johnny_berlin

We'll see what happens.

We have discussed this before, and I wish this new service well.

However, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking this will develop into a proper public service comparable to Amtrak's own cars. Private operators will cherry-pick routes (and I don't mean that negatively), and the number of customers interested limits the number of trains they can do this. Right now they are looking at a twice-weekly service on two different trains. I don't expect it will ever expand significantly beyond that.

It's like crossing the Atlantic. I can catch any one of several dozen flights that leave every day. Or if I want to go by ship, I can choose from maybe one or two saliings a month (in the Summer, probably nothing in the Winter). Why aren't there more ships and more sailings? Because that's all the market will support.

You can argue, the ship isn't that expensive. It probably costs less than first class on the plane. And it's much more comfortable in every respect to be on a ship. But the problem is that many of those who occupy those expensive seats on the plane are business travellers, and crossing the Atlantic by ship is just not really compatible with the schedule of a businessman. Trying to think otherwise is to chase a market that bdoesn't exist.

 

[Anderson]

One privatized option is the New Pullman service that will start in the fall. Definitely not cheap, but more affordable tha the late American Orient Express. There is a thread here:

http://discuss.amtra...are-now-posted/

A price list here:

http://www.travelpul...t1_FINAL_SR.pdf

And just for fun, here is an interesting take on the American Orient Express:

http://www.snagfilms...e/johnny_berlin

We'll see what happens.

We have discussed this before, and I wish this new service well.

However, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking this will develop into a proper public service comparable to Amtrak's own cars. Private operators will cherry-pick routes (and I don't mean that negatively), and the number of customers interested limits the number of trains they can do this. Right now they are looking at a twice-weekly service on two different trains. I don't expect it will ever expand significantly beyond that.

It's like crossing the Atlantic. I can catch any one of several dozen flights that leave every day. Or if I want to go by ship, I can choose from maybe one or two saliings a month (in the Summer, probably nothing in the Winter). Why aren't there more ships and more sailings? Because that's all the market will support.

You can argue, the ship isn't that expensive. It probably costs less than first class on the plane. And it's much more comfortable in every respect to be on a ship. But the problem is that many of those who occupy those expensive seats on the plane are business travellers, and crossing the Atlantic by ship is just not really compatible with the schedule of a businessman. Trying to think otherwise is to chase a market that bdoesn't exist.

I'm honestly not convinced that there isn't a market for the "overnight trip" in the US, particularly as the convenience of air travel slides. However, there are very few markets where there is a decent option for this both ways (and if anything, Amtrak is moving "the other way" on this front with the planned changes to the Cap's schedule). I suspect the question will be answered a bit more once 66/67 get their sleeper back, but my understanding is that 66/67 had a packed sleeper up until it was cut.

 

[cirdan]

Just a thought that came into my head.

I have at times pondered on the economics of sleeper cars.

I can book a roomette for sole occupancy but I can also book it for double occupancy. I was wondering in which situation Amtrak makes more money. Of course in sole occupancy there is one place that Amtrak is unable to sell. In fact if there are two of us travelling and we decide to take a roomette each rather than sharing one, then there is one roomette and potentially two tickets that amtrak cannot sell to anybody else, and if the train is sold out, people are being turned back.

I have sometimes wondered whether that is an antisocial choice, seeing i'm depriving somebody else of a trip and Amtrak of the fare.

However, if Amtrak really does lose food money on every passenger, then surely I am paying for two sets of meals but only eating one. That should be good for their bottom line. Unless of course they stock that extra food anyway and end up throwing the extras away.

Any ideas?

 

[Trogdor]

However, if Amtrak really does lose food money on every passenger, then surely I am paying for two sets of meals but only eating one. That should be good for their bottom line. Unless of course they stock that extra food anyway and end up throwing the extras away.

Just as in running the trains at a loss, Amtrak does not lose money on each passenger. It's the whole service that loses money.

The marginal cost of serving one additional meal is fairly low, and whatever price the passenger pays easily covers that marginal cost. What causes the whole service to lose money is that you're paying for a crew, a car (with maintenance) and various support services that don't get one cent cheaper just because there's one less person traveling. The additional rail fare from the second person in a sleeper would easily exceed the cost of delivering service to one more person, because all of the other expenses are fixed (even if we assume that Amtrak could get away with buying one less steak for the dining car that trip).

By using the loss-per-passenger logic (whether it's on food service in particular or train service as a whole), one can easily come to the (ridiculous) conclusion that the trains wouldn't lose any money if people simply didn't ride. Reality is just the opposite.

 

[stonesfan]

Amtrak is a SERVICE which is funded by the taxpayer is it not? Unfortunately services tend not to make much money, in fact, they tend to gobble up cash in huge sums! I know were talking politics here, but some people seem to think everything needs to run as a profit to make it viable. I'm all for enterprise but theres some things which are going to lose money but for a good cause.

 

[Guest]

My point is that food service and travel don't work that well together outside of cruise ships and I think alcohol sales may be the subsidy there.

Therefore, we can perhaps do without all the hardware i listed above and maybe use pre-mixed cocktails, and then charge them for it with a markup. While we can get away with asking $4 - 5 bottle of beer, which is only slightly more than a the bars I go to but much more than the news stand, if Amtrak got creative and started using premium tequilas like Patron' in some of their drinks, maybe we can get the alcohol sales to work harder. Or: since we are such a major carrier that serves beverages in trains of all categories, why not approach the makers of these liquors to ask for a custom size or mixture that allows for more choices of more desireable items, thereby commanding a higher price? If Amtrak made and sold mixed cocktails and other drinks and charged higher for it, and dress up the Amfleet cafe tables and lighting a little, they very well could have alcohol subsidize the food by selling not just a drink, but a NIGHT OUT while traveling!!

I agree, to an extent-At between $5 and $7 per can of beer as I recall, that is a bit higher than I am usually willing to pay for multiple drinks. Cut the price 20%, and I'll up my intake 80%! Would really like to have more of a lounge atmosphere-The current crop of cafe's are more like the concession stand at a high school football game. Reasonable prices (for what you get-Don't get me wrong, I would pay $7 for a 22 oz draft craft beer. But I'm not paying $60 for a 12 pack of Budweiser!) and a better social atmosphere would be great! Bring back the bar from Silver Streak. Real cocktails, a real bar to sit at along with the tables, and I think alcohol revenue would go up.

Of course, the high prices might ALSO be there intentionally. I've been on trains a long time ago, back when you could smoke in the lounge, and a lot of coach passengers would camp out drinking and smoking until stumbling......so, I guess it's a tradeoff. I can afford to drink at $6/beer now, but I can imagine a lof of folks can't.

You don't have to bring back the bar from the Silver Streak, you can ride it any time you're willing to pay the price The CPR (Amroad!) Budd equipment used in Silver Strwak is still polishing the rails for Via Rail, primarily on The Canadian..

G.

 

[AlanB]

Yeah, I've worked with a few people, who were around when the superliners were introduced. Originally there were six or seven waiters in the diners and they each only worked two tables. Obviously I wasn't there. I'm just repeating what some of my co-workers have told me.

I was there, and worked those new cars, and let me tell you, we made a helluva a lot of money in tips, AND filled the diners and cranked out meals.

The Auto Train still does do this to some extent, that is to say, load up the entire car at once. I can't truly speak to the kitchen staff, although I'm sure that there are at least 2 downstairs and quite probably 3 if not 4. But up top if they're just using the dining car they have 4 SA's and 1 LSA working the sleeper diner. And when they go to overflow seating in the cafe car, they add I believe 2 more SA's although it was hard to keep track of just how many people were running around so it might have been just 1.

I have no idea how many they use in coach during busy times, but clearly it has to be more when they run two dining cars, one just for seating and one for seating & all cooking. There they must have at least 8 SA's, if not more and easily 4 down in the kitchen.

 

[NY Penn]

About the Auto Train, how did the buffet cars work? Why were they replaced with regular dining cars?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

One privatized option is the New Pullman service that will start in the fall. Definitely not cheap, but more affordable tha the late American Orient Express. There is a thread here:

http://discuss.amtra...are-now-posted/

A price list here:

http://www.travelpul...t1_FINAL_SR.pdf

And just for fun, here is an interesting take on the American Orient Express:

http://www.snagfilms...e/johnny_berlin

We'll see what happens.

We have discussed this before, and I wish this new service well.

However, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking this will develop into a proper public service comparable to Amtrak's own cars. Private operators will cherry-pick routes (and I don't mean that negatively), and the number of customers interested limits the number of trains they can do this. Right now they are looking at a twice-weekly service on two different trains. I don't expect it will ever expand significantly beyond that.

It's like crossing the Atlantic. I can catch any one of several dozen flights that leave every day. Or if I want to go by ship, I can choose from maybe one or two saliings a month (in the Summer, probably nothing in the Winter). Why aren't there more ships and more sailings? Because that's all the market will support.

You can argue, the ship isn't that expensive. It probably costs less than first class on the plane. And it's much more comfortable in every respect to be on a ship. But the problem is that many of those who occupy those expensive seats on the plane are business travellers, and crossing the Atlantic by ship is just not really compatible with the schedule of a businessman. Trying to think otherwise is to chase a market that doesn't exist.

Actually, there's still regular liner service across the Atlantic every month, maybe not in Winter, but this is in addition to cruise ship servies. There is a market to support more ships than you said, but probably not for more ships than what is actually there. Also, liner fares in a regular room costs about the same as airline J (business class), sometimes even less, but more expensive than economy.

I must agree with Anderson, there is a market for evening-to-morning trains plus some longer trips for tourists. So the new "Pullman" service might actually expand to a Western LD or two, who knows, while Amtrak should try out more evening-to-morning trains that have lots of Sleepers.

About the Auto Train, how did the buffet cars work? Why were they replaced with regular dining cars?

I don't know how they worked but I would expect that htey were replaced because they lost too much money.

 

[Guest]

I know this has come up in my mind before, but is there some way that Amtrak could work things whereby on some of the eastern routes the diner staff wouldn't ride through? For example, with the Crescent you could detrain "Team A" at LYH or thereabouts and have "team B" cycle to/from somewhere north of Atlanta (perhaps CLT?). On the Silvers, doing so with RVR and perhaps SAV on the Meteor also comes to mind; Cleveland and Pittsburgh come to mind for the Cap as well.

That would sure free up a lot of roomettes for revenue service. Lets be generous and say that the roomette could be potentially only going to be occupied by one person from WAS to ATL: For each worker that stays on the train overnight a there is a potential of $239 lost revenue ($108 rail fare + $131 roomette). Now that is a low price, but as the roomettes are selling you can find them going for $500+.

 

[the_traveler]

1344986925[/url]' post='387303']

1344392826[/url]' post='385712']I know this has come up in my mind before, but is there some way that Amtrak could work things whereby on some of the eastern routes the diner staff wouldn't ride through? For example, with the Crescent you could detrain "Team A" at LYH or thereabouts and have "team B" cycle to/from somewhere north of Atlanta (perhaps CLT?). On the Silvers, doing so with RVR and perhaps SAV on the Meteor also comes to mind; Cleveland and Pittsburgh come to mind for the Cap as well.

That would sure free up a lot of roomettes for revenue service. Lets be generous and say that the roomette could be potentially only going to be occupied by one person from WAS to ATL: For each worker that stays on the train overnight a there is a potential of $239 lost revenue ($108 rail fare + $131 roomette). Now that is a low price, but as the roomettes are selling you can find them going for $500+.

Don't forget that those employees are using rooms in the trans-dorm on Superliners. (The CL was mentioned and uses Superliner equipment!) Those rooms could NEVER be revenue rooms!

 

[Guest]

I know this has come up in my mind before, but is there some way that Amtrak could work things whereby on some of the eastern routes the diner staff wouldn't ride through? For example, with the Crescent you could detrain "Team A" at LYH or thereabouts and have "team B" cycle to/from somewhere north of Atlanta (perhaps CLT?). On the Silvers, doing so with RVR and perhaps SAV on the Meteor also comes to mind; Cleveland and Pittsburgh come to mind for the Cap as well.

That would sure free up a lot of roomettes for revenue service. Lets be generous and say that the roomette could be potentially only going to be occupied by one person from WAS to ATL: For each worker that stays on the train overnight a there is a potential of $239 lost revenue ($108 rail fare + $131 roomette). Now that is a low price, but as the roomettes are selling you can find them going for $500+.

Team A based out of Greenville, SC gets on early in the morning and spends the night in a hotel in NOL. Next day they return home. Team B works Lynchburg-NYP-Lynchburg same day turn. Next day for that crew is off to rest. If the train is so late that it interrupts meals then a shuttle can be arranged to bring the crews where they need them

 

[Guestlsa]

Oh k so if team a train is getting off at Atlanta where would they stay ? or better lets say train is late and since team a still on train after 10 ( that's what time we are paid up to) where would sleep ? you would have to pay for hotel. The average worker gets less than 8 hours ( I might be wrong on some routes) at their layover (overnight) .

 

[AutoTrDvr]

About the Auto Train, how did the buffet cars work? Why were they replaced with regular dining cars?

I don't know how they worked but I would expect that htey were replaced because they lost too much money.

I've only seen a full diner and a lounge. No buffet in 7 round trips. Must have been before my AT time.

 

[PRR 60]

About the Auto Train, how did the buffet cars work? Why were they replaced with regular dining cars?

I don't know how they worked but I would expect that htey were replaced because they lost too much money.

I've only seen a full diner and a lounge. No buffet in 7 round trips. Must have been before my AT time.

I believe the buffets were used during the period the Auto Train used single-level equipment. When the AT was converted to Superliners (as the Superliner II's came into service), the buffets went away.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

http://www.snagfilms...e/johnny_berlin

I like this link - look at the end

 

[Guestlsa]

So why pay for hotel when team a can just work all way. You asking them to pay for hotel and a shuttle to and from when they can just pay them for whole trip. When I started in 2002 we had our own car (dorm) do you think we want to share with passengers ? I have nothing against any of them ( met a lot of nice ones ) but we like our privacy .

 

[OBS]

About the Auto Train, how did the buffet cars work? Why were they replaced with regular dining cars?

I don't know how they worked but I would expect that htey were replaced because they lost too much money.

I've only seen a full diner and a lounge. No buffet in 7 round trips. Must have been before my AT time.

I believe the buffets were used during the period the Auto Train used single-level equipment. When the AT was converted to Superliners (as the Superliner II's came into service), the buffets went away.

That is correct.