5 Killed: Michigan Collision with Wolverine (2009)

[wayman]

Picture I took in 1995 at the Bellevue, OH rail museum. It shows what can happen when a train hits a car.

I wish more museums had such exhibits.

At one small-town train station in the Netherlands--rural enough that it was really just two platforms and a level pedestrian crossing between them with standard Dutch bicycle gates (a little zig-zag-y chute on either side of the tracks designed to slow you down, though a skilled rider can manuever it while still riding)--there was an extremely mangled bicycle frame chained to a fence on the platform, with a small sign saying something to the effect of "what happens when a bicycle is on the train tracks". There was no mention of a person being killed or injured, so I hope in this particular instance the person abandoned their bicycle and got clear of the tracks, but who knows....

Anyway, it was a very sobering little exhibit positioned exactly where it should be--right near a crossing on a seldom-used train line in a small town, exactly the sort of place where kids might get careless or reckless and not look for trains before crossing.

 

[Alice]

i didn't know cars had black boxes now. or did the reporter mean the locomotive.

Nope, they meant the car. Some new cars do have the equivalent of a flight data recorder or "black box." I don't know how prevalent they are, but I've heard about them for a few years. However, every manufacturer puts in a different unit, so I know there's a lot of compatibility issues and most police departments don't have the ability to download their data, nor can they legally due so without consent in most circumstances (I believe). And they only record a small amount of time - maybe just the last minute or two before the accident. I'm sure I could dig up more info for you but I'm running out the door at the moment.

They are very common in newer cars. The manufacturers use them to improve safety. I suspect they are also used to reduce lawsuit claims against manufacturers. Google will get you multiple articles on how privacy advocates are up in arms about the trend.

 

[transit54]

Picture I took in 1995 at the Bellevue, OH rail museum. It shows what can happen when a train hits a car.

I wish more museums had such exhibits.

At one small-town train station in the Netherlands--rural enough that it was really just two platforms and a level pedestrian crossing between them with standard Dutch bicycle gates (a little zig-zag-y chute on either side of the tracks designed to slow you down, though a skilled rider can manuever it while still riding)--there was an extremely mangled bicycle frame chained to a fence on the platform, with a small sign saying something to the effect of "what happens when a bicycle is on the train tracks". There was no mention of a person being killed or injured, so I hope in this particular instance the person abandoned their bicycle and got clear of the tracks, but who knows....

Anyway, it was a very sobering little exhibit positioned exactly where it should be--right near a crossing on a seldom-used train line in a small town, exactly the sort of place where kids might get careless or reckless and not look for trains before crossing.

This is also an fantastic video that very clearly shows the damage a train can do. It was filmed for a British TV program and shows a locomotive hitting an (empty) car in slow motion. A really eye opening experience to watch, I don't know who would ever try and beat a train after watching this. Especially considering a full train wasn't even used for the video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDrOFZqtH-0

 

[catblue]

Not all insurance companies give a discount for Drivers Ed anymore. Which makes no sense really. Looks like it would be a requirement for teens to even get a drivers license. That and raising the age to acquire a license to 18 would help. I think most insurances companies around here do give a discount to teens with proof of having good grades in school. The color of the auto having a affect on insurance price just seems silly to me. A blue or black car or truck goes just as fast as a red one.

Catblue,

There is some sense to the color thing: my Brother-in-Law who is a Police Officer told me that he was warned when in training that people who drive red cars drive agressively and at first did not believe it. But he later discovered that this was true: the first 3 traffic accidents he had to respond to were caused by drivers in red cars. Strange but true! :huh:

Could it possibly be that red is one of the most popular colors and therefor there are a lot of red vehicles on the road. I know where I live when you stop at a stop light and just look at the traffic around you it seems like every other vehicle is either red or white. Especially when it comes to pickup trucks, around here anyway. Just a thought and I will leave it at that. I don't claim to be a expert.

 

[George Harris]

Not all insurance companies give a discount for Drivers Ed anymore. Which makes no sense really. Looks like it would be a requirement for teens to even get a drivers license. That and raising the age to acquire a license to 18 would help. I think most insurances companies around here do give a discount to teens with proof of having good grades in school. The color of the auto having a affect on insurance price just seems silly to me. A blue or black car or truck goes just as fast as a red one.

Catblue,

There is some sense to the color thing: my Brother-in-Law who is a Police Officer told me that he was warned when in training that people who drive red cars drive agressively and at first did not believe it. But he later discovered that this was true: the first 3 traffic accidents he had to respond to were caused by drivers in red cars. Strange but true! :huh:

Could it possibly be that red is one of the most popular colors and therefor there are a lot of red vehicles on the road. I know where I live when you stop at a stop light and just look at the traffic around you it seems like every other vehicle is either red or white. Especially when it comes to pickup trucks, around here anyway. Just a thought and I will leave it at that. I don't claim to be a expert.

I have also been told by someone that had one, if you drive a red car, be sure to very carefully observe all traffic laws, including keep it to speed limit -1 or lower because red seems to attract police scrutiny.

 

[caravanman]

Picture I took in 1995 at the Bellevue, OH rail museum. It shows what can happen when a train hits a car.

I wish more museums had such exhibits.

At one small-town train station in the Netherlands--rural enough that it was really just two platforms and a level pedestrian crossing between them with standard Dutch bicycle gates (a little zig-zag-y chute on either side of the tracks designed to slow you down, though a skilled rider can manuever it while still riding)--there was an extremely mangled bicycle frame chained to a fence on the platform, with a small sign saying something to the effect of "what happens when a bicycle is on the train tracks". There was no mention of a person being killed or injured, so I hope in this particular instance the person abandoned their bicycle and got clear of the tracks, but who knows....

Anyway, it was a very sobering little exhibit positioned exactly where it should be--right near a crossing on a seldom-used train line in a small town, exactly the sort of place where kids might get careless or reckless and not look for trains before crossing.

This is also an fantastic video that very clearly shows the damage a train can do. It was filmed for a British TV program and shows a locomotive hitting an (empty) car in slow motion. A really eye opening experience to watch, I don't know who would ever try and beat a train after watching this. Especially considering a full train wasn't even used for the video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDrOFZqtH-0

I am 100% distressed to find Jeremy Clarkson introducing this video clip. On the other hand I am 100% pleased to see that the type of locomotive featured (Brush Diesel Electric) was one that I learnt to drive as a British Rail trainee engineer many years ago..

Yep, I honestly do know quite a bit about how trains stop...

Ed

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Not all insurance companies give a discount for Drivers Ed anymore. Which makes no sense really. Looks like it would be a requirement for teens to even get a drivers license. That and raising the age to acquire a license to 18 would help. I think most insurances companies around here do give a discount to teens with proof of having good grades in school. The color of the auto having a affect on insurance price just seems silly to me. A blue or black car or truck goes just as fast as a red one.

Catblue,

There is some sense to the color thing: my Brother-in-Law who is a Police Officer told me that he was warned when in training that people who drive red cars drive agressively and at first did not believe it. But he later discovered that this was true: the first 3 traffic accidents he had to respond to were caused by drivers in red cars. Strange but true! :huh:

Could it possibly be that red is one of the most popular colors and therefor there are a lot of red vehicles on the road. I know where I live when you stop at a stop light and just look at the traffic around you it seems like every other vehicle is either red or white. Especially when it comes to pickup trucks, around here anyway. Just a thought and I will leave it at that. I don't claim to be a expert.

I have also been told by someone that had one, if you drive a red car, be sure to very carefully observe all traffic laws, including keep it to speed limit -1 or lower because red seems to attract police scrutiny.

Car color doesn't have much to do with the chance of getting a ticket.

Read this.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Not all insurance companies give a discount for Drivers Ed anymore. Which makes no sense really. Looks like it would be a requirement for teens to even get a drivers license. That and raising the age to acquire a license to 18 would help. I think most insurances companies around here do give a discount to teens with proof of having good grades in school. The color of the auto having a affect on insurance price just seems silly to me. A blue or black car or truck goes just as fast as a red one.

Actually, the reason is several fold. A police officer sitting on the side of the highway will fire off their radar gun at cars that catch their attention. Red cars are much more visible- they have to see the violator to track their speed- and attract much more attention. A beige and common car going 85 down the highway in a comfortable straight line that is not acting in an attention grabbing way has a lower chance of getting caught then an interesting red one (Lets say, a BMW) that is playing thread the needle through traffic at 70.

Second, your assertion that red cars are just as fast as other colours sounds reasonable, but statistically, it is inaccurate. Why? Performance cars are more often sold in vibrant colours (such as fire-engine red) then lower performance vehicles, such as the Toyota Camry. A red car is not, inherently, faster. But a fast car is more likely to be red.

Lastly, everything points to a picture of the person who buys it. A quiet, unassuming person is more likely to choose a quiet, unassuming car- say a beige four-cylinder Camry. A person who shows off more, or is more risky, or more aggressive, is likely to buy something more aggressive. More aggressive in appearance- say, a Dodge Charger- more aggressive in performance- say, a Hemi V8 - and more aggressive in colour- say, Fire Engine red. And they are more likely to drive fast. Which means they are more likely to get a ticket. And more likely to get into an accident.

i didn't know cars had black boxes now. or did the reporter mean the locomotive.

They do. They are an infringement upon your rights. They can be- and are - used to convict people in crimes. They do NOT require consent in several states. They bug me on several levels.

If the kid driving hadn't swerved around an SUV stopped at the gate it wouldn't matter whether the train was an Amtrak train or a freight. A gate down and flashing lights and bells clanging are all supposed to mean STOP!!!!!!!!!

yeah just like a red light at a intersection means stop or a stop sign at a intersection but people still blow though those like there not even there. have cameras at the crossings that whenever a car goes through the crossing when the lights are flashing it takes a picture of the cars license plate and you get a ticket in the mail for $$$$$. those fines will pay for the cameras in no time.

Most people I know don't do that. Its a very rare problem where I live. People do roll through stop signs (which is generally not dangerous- it takes little pressure from your left foot to stop) but that's a different category of safety stupidity then outright running one.

 

[PaulM]

yeah like "if it wasn't for amtrak going ridiculously fast the teens would have made it" etc etc etc

They are technically correct. If it had been a slow freight the youngerts probably would have made it. Same thing goes for the people the CZ hit the other day as well-- it isn't Amtrak's fault, but the speed is the reason why these accidents happened. People expect a pondering double stack and insteak get a silver streak.

I could be wrong; but I thought I learned from an AU thread (probably the one about the CN requiring a certain number of axles on Illinois trains) that the crossing gate computer uses the approaching train's speed to drop the gates a certain TIME, not distance, before the train arrives. So it would seem that the guy would have the same time to get by once the gate went down whether it was a slow freight or fast passenger train, .

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

yeah like "if it wasn't for amtrak going ridiculously fast the teens would have made it" etc etc etc

They are technically correct. If it had been a slow freight the youngerts probably would have made it. Same thing goes for the people the CZ hit the other day as well-- it isn't Amtrak's fault, but the speed is the reason why these accidents happened. People expect a pondering double stack and insteak get a silver streak.

I could be wrong; but I thought I learned from an AU thread (probably the one about the CN requiring a certain number of axles on Illinois trains) that the crossing gate computer uses the approaching train's speed to drop the gates a certain TIME, not distance, before the train arrives. So it would seem that the guy would have the same time to get by once the gate went down whether it was a slow freight or fast passenger train, .

But does the Average American know that? Nope. He doesn't know what's coming, and most people forget Amtrak exists.

 

[jackal]

yeah like "if it wasn't for amtrak going ridiculously fast the teens would have made it" etc etc etc

They are technically correct. If it had been a slow freight the youngerts probably would have made it. Same thing goes for the people the CZ hit the other day as well-- it isn't Amtrak's fault, but the speed is the reason why these accidents happened. People expect a pondering double stack and insteak get a silver streak.

I could be wrong; but I thought I learned from an AU thread (probably the one about the CN requiring a certain number of axles on Illinois trains) that the crossing gate computer uses the approaching train's speed to drop the gates a certain TIME, not distance, before the train arrives. So it would seem that the guy would have the same time to get by once the gate went down whether it was a slow freight or fast passenger train, .

That's my understanding.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

But does the Average American know that? Nope. He doesn't know what's coming, and most people forget Amtrak exists.

So what? You do a stupid thing, I don't care if its the Coal Slug Local, the Intermodal Hot Shot, or the Amtrak Cannonball Express. You run the gates, you just bought yourself a one way ticket on the Hell Limited, and good riddance. My only wish is that your sorry self is alone.

 

[Spokker]

If it wasn't a train this guy would have probably been killed by ramming into something else. The coverage in the newspaper, news sites and railroad forums is probably the most attention he ever got in his life. I'm sure his friends and family thinks he's the nicest guy in the world no matter what he did while he was living, but he chose to live his life in a way where we'll remember him as an idiot who sped through a rail crossing and killed himself.

If I do something stupid to get myself killed and you read about it in the paper, by all means, say whatever you want. Tell my mother how stupid I was to her face. The last thing I would want is people to censor their true feelings over my death.

 

[oldtimer]

amtrakwolverine said on Tue, Jul 14, 2009, 07:51 PM

"i didn't know cars had black boxes now. or did the reporter mean the locomotive."

GML replied

"They do. They are an infringement upon your rights. They can be- and are - used to convict people in crimes. They do NOT require consent in several states. They bug me on several levels."

They have had these for sometime now even some that record the last few seconds of voice.

A study of pickup trucks in Texas has found that in 50% of the fatal accidents the last words were "HOLD MY BEER, AND WATCH THIS".

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

We were on the Wolverine the day after the crash, but since the previous 2 days had been on trains, did not know about it until our cab driver in ARB briefed us in. I found it interesting, yet typical, how the Detroit media went on and on about the kids in the car and yet said nothing about the crew or pax on the train. As I've always said, people who chose to run crossings and die get what they deserve but unfortunately at the cost of the crew, passengers and railroad.

 

[George Harris]

yeah like "if it wasn't for amtrak going ridiculously fast the teens would have made it" etc etc etc

They are technically correct. If it had been a slow freight the youngerts probably would have made it. Same thing goes for the people the CZ hit the other day as well-- it isn't Amtrak's fault, but the speed is the reason why these accidents happened. People expect a pondering double stack and insteak get a silver streak.

Not at all. Plenty of collisions are with slow trains, and then there are those that run into the sides of trains.

A number of years ago with a different employer, we were acting as the engineering staff for a 10 mph short line. One day we got an order from one of the counties to do plans for lights and bells, etc, amd maybe even gates at a crossing with one of the county roads. The firstt reaction was, Why here, followed by why at all? Best I can remember, there were only a couple of crossings on the whole line that had flashers, and those were in the larger towns on busy streets.

The answer was this: Somehow the sheriff of that county managed to get his marked police car totaled at this particular crossing. This was the one train a day moving a 10 mph. This collission would have been hard to achieve without planning, but somehow he managed. By the way, a straight track in near level country.

So, even with slow trains, stupidity will find a way. Also if you know the trains will be long and slow, there is more temptation to try and beat it. At least with the Amtraks, the passing time is measured in seconds and the whole cycle is not much longer than a normla street light cycle.

 

[DET63]

Momentum p is the product of mass m times velocity v: p=mv

When I was in my high-school physics class, we learned that a speeding bullet (low mass, high velocity) may have as much momentum as a slow moving train (high mass, low velocity). Driving in front of a train makes as much sense as driving in front of a bullet. Actually, less sense, since you should be able to see the train, while you probably won't be able to see the bullet.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Not at all. Plenty of collisions are with slow trains, and then there are those that run into the sides of trains.

He is TECHNICALLY correct. If the train was moving slower it wouldn't have been in that location in the exact time to make this happen. That being said, let us remember more importantly, if my Aunt had wheels, she'd clearly be a teacart.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Not at all. Plenty of collisions are with slow trains, and then there are those that run into the sides of trains.

He is TECHNICALLY correct. If the train was moving slower it wouldn't have been in that location in the exact time to make this happen. That being said, let us remember more importantly, if my Aunt had wheels, she'd clearly be a teacart.

Just do a study about how many car-train crossing accidents there are, and keeping in mind the fleet size of each class I RR in the US I'm willing to put money that Amtrak will have more collisions per train than any other RR by a significant margin.

 

[transit54]

Not at all. Plenty of collisions are with slow trains, and then there are those that run into the sides of trains.

He is TECHNICALLY correct. If the train was moving slower it wouldn't have been in that location in the exact time to make this happen. That being said, let us remember more importantly, if my Aunt had wheels, she'd clearly be a teacart.

Just do a study about how many car-train crossing accidents there are, and keeping in mind the fleet size of each class I RR in the US I'm willing to put money that Amtrak will have more collisions per train than any other RR by a significant margin.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if you are right, however, because a significant percentage of Amtrak's trains ply the NEC which has very, very few grade crossings.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Not at all. Plenty of collisions are with slow trains, and then there are those that run into the sides of trains.

He is TECHNICALLY correct. If the train was moving slower it wouldn't have been in that location in the exact time to make this happen. That being said, let us remember more importantly, if my Aunt had wheels, she'd clearly be a teacart.

Just do a study about how many car-train crossing accidents there are, and keeping in mind the fleet size of each class I RR in the US I'm willing to put money that Amtrak will have more collisions per train than any other RR by a significant margin.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if you are right, however, because a significant percentage of Amtrak's trains ply the NEC which has very, very few grade crossings.

It's not like this could be done... some pencil pusher would have to spend a lot of man hours working on it-- but I am willing to bet there is a very good chance, and that its such a good chance I'd put money on it as a safe bet.

 

[George Harris]

Momentum p is the product of mass m times velocity v: p=mvWhen I was in my high-school physics class, we learned that a speeding bullet (low mass, high velocity) may have as much momentum as a slow moving train (high mass, low velocity). Driving in front of a train makes as much sense as driving in front of a bullet. Actually, less sense, since you should be able to see the train, while you probably won't be able to see the bullet.

He must not have passed his math course, then.

Let's look at it:

Take one freight diesel, only, weight around 400,000 pounds, and have him move at 10 mph

Momentum: 400,000 lbs * 10 mph * 44/30 = 5,866,668 ft-lbs. (44/30 converts mph to feet/second)

That is one engine moving slow, not even multiple units or a train.

Now let's take a big bullet moving fast:

45 caliber 500 grain bullet = 0.07143 pounds, have it move at twice the speed of sound, in round numbers, 2000 ft/second

Momentum: 0.07143 lbs * 2000 ft/sec = 142.9 ft-lbs

Need I say more?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Momentum p is the product of mass m times velocity v: p=mvWhen I was in my high-school physics class, we learned that a speeding bullet (low mass, high velocity) may have as much momentum as a slow moving train (high mass, low velocity). Driving in front of a train makes as much sense as driving in front of a bullet. Actually, less sense, since you should be able to see the train, while you probably won't be able to see the bullet.

He must not have passed his math course, then.

Let's look at it:

Take one freight diesel, only, weight around 400,000 pounds, and have him move at 10 mph

Momentum: 400,000 lbs * 10 mph * 44/30 = 5,866,668 ft-lbs. (44/30 converts mph to feet/second)

That is one engine moving slow, not even multiple units or a train.

Now let's take a big bullet moving fast:

45 caliber 500 grain bullet = 0.07143 pounds, have it move at twice the speed of sound, in round numbers, 2000 ft/second

Momentum: 0.07143 lbs * 2000 ft/sec = 142.9 ft-lbs

Need I say more?

Yeah but you could argue that a Baby Bullet (An MP38, and 3-4 Bombardier Bi-levels) hitting 79 mph might have a similar amount of force to, say, a single SD70MAC and 20 coal cars going 15 mph.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

either way if a train hits a car the car is scrap if there's anything left.

 

[jackal]

Yeah but you could argue that a Baby Bullet (An MP38, and 3-4 Bombardier Bi-levels) hitting 79 mph might have a similar amount of force to, say, a single SD70MAC and 20 coal cars going 15 mph.

However, on any given stretch of track, you're not going to have that much of a differential between the speed of the freight train and that of the passenger.

Passenger speed limits are generally only 10, perhaps 15, mph more than freight limits. So if you pick some random grade crossing in an area where the passenger speed limit is 79mph, most freight trains going by are likely to be running at 65-70mph.

And that's a HECK of a lot of momentum.

The exceptions would be if you're talking about a train with specialized speed restricted equipment (e.g. loaded air dump cars, which BNSF restricts to 45mph, or certain of empty hopper cars, which they restrict to 40mph--for an interesting list, check out the BNSF System Special Instructions on page 3-4), or if you have a loaded train going up a grade or starting from a stop or some similar circumstance.