Zephyr Late

[Doc58301]

Hello everyone, I have always been a train fan, have not traveled alot by train, but getting closer to retirement I hope to start.

I am driving to Denver in March to catch the Zephyr to Reno. I have been checking times into Reno the last couple weeks or so, and the Zephyr is over 80% at least 6 hours late. What gives. I checked today and it is 12 hours late.

I would love to take the train just for the experience, but always being so late kind of turns Me away from traveling this way. Is there any website I can go to find out why the Zephyr is always running so late ?

I am not really on any timetable the first two days, just a room already paid for.

Thanks

 

[AmtrakFan]

Doc,

Part of the Problem is the Weather woes as of late. But 99% of the time, it has to do with the Freight Company Union Pacific, they are well known for NOT giving Priority to Amtrak plus in Nevada and Utah UP has Slow Orders due to Rotton Ties which have to be replaced. I understand with you, I am not happy with this and they need to improve before I will travel on 5/6.

 

[AlanB]

If being on time is of great importance and assuming that your ride is just for fun, I'd suggest trying to ride either the SW Chief or the Empire Builder for your first run. Those two trains have a much better on time performance.

 

[Doc58301]

Thanks for the replies. My timetable to get into Reno is not that serious. I don't have to bowl until Wednesday the 07th. For Me it is more the reason they are late. I fully understand that there are always mechanical issues, and track issues, however, My big issue if the train is running late. is it because of personnel issues. I read on another forum the # 5 zephyr was late getting into Reno and the engineers 12 hours were up, and the train was stopped. The relief crew that was in Reno had to drive 200 miles to relieve the Crew and then the train continued on to Reno.

I do not know if this is true or not, but if it is, I would think that the policy should be changed. To make Your customers be inconvienenced for as many hours as this took, and then for the new staff to have to go back to Reno. Why did not the original engineers just take the train into Reno ?

 

[AmtrakWPK]

The federal Hours of Service law is very strict. When the engineer or conductor reaches the federal limit for hours on duty, that train stops, wherever it is, until a relief crew can take over. Even if that "plugs up" that rail line and stops all other trains on both sides of it. As I understand it, there is no option involved. The train stops, period. Of course, there is a good argument, unless there is a blizzard or a derailment, or a landslide, or some other "Act of God" involved, that Headquarters should have anticipated that the crew would "run out of time", and should have had a relief crew there much more quickly. On the other hand, in cases like the recent blizzard conditions, where airlines were grounded for several days at a time, keeping the trains running at all, even if significantly delayed, is a major achievement. How do you get that relief crew to the train when the roads are almost impassible with snow and ice?

I would say there's an argument that there ought to be a mechanism available for a temporary waiver to allow the original crew, in cases where it is physically impossible, or nearly so, to get a relief crew to the train AND where the environmental conditions are hazardous to life, to move the train to a place where the passengers could be put into a safe haven off the train.

 

[PRR 60]

...I would say there's an argument that there ought to be a mechanism available for a temporary waiver to allow the original crew, in cases where it is physically impossible, or nearly so, to get a relief crew to the train AND where the environmental conditions are hazardous to life, to move the train to a place where the passengers could be put into a safe haven off the train.

There is a means of going beyond the hours of service limit in extreme situations. It is Amtrak's call. However, if the FRA determines that the violation was not justified by the situation, Amtrak will get slapped pretty severely in the wallet. For that reason, Amtrak (and all railroads) is very hesitant to use that out unless there is a risk to life.

 

[Doc58301]

Does that make any sense to anyone ? How much money does it cost amtrak each year to get these relief crews to where they are suppose to be. If it is happening on the CZ, I would imagine it happens to other trains also. If the CZ leaves Denver and has trouble and is going to be 12 hours late getting into Salt Lake, does that mean that Amtrak has to fly the relief crew from Reno to SLC ?

Does the rest of the crew that is not affected get extra pay for the time the train is just sitting ? (overtime)

I am sure these questions have come up before, and It all boils down to the same opinion that if You don't like it then don't ride the train.

Amtrak may have funding difficulties, and if Amtrak can't find ways to save money on their own, why should the government continue to give money.

 

[Bigval109]

Can we at least not blame Amtrak for the Laws it did not write. And can we at least not blame Amtrak for the poor undermaintained tracks that it doesnot own.

 

[Doc58301]

I would like to apologize if I have affended anyone. When I started this tread this was not My intent.

I would like to apologize to any amtrak employee that I may have offended, that was certainly not My intent. I can not imagine being on a train for days at a time and being away from Your family for that long, You are serving a valuable service to this Country.

Please do understand that I have a concern that if there is to be a future for Amtrak something has to be done to make the train more on time reliable.

As I have said in an earlier post, there are going to be mechanical issues and track issues, however, when the train has to sit for 5 hours just to have a relief crew get to the train, there is serious problems.

I do not even pretend that I know how to fix this problem, however, as a buisness owner, and someone that hoped to do a lot of traveling by amtrak and see the country, as they say, it You don't like it, don't travel this way.

 

[AlanB]

Doc,

The problem is that in most cases, Amtrak is not in control of its fate. Its fate is controlled by the freight RR who is hosting the train. Amtrak schedules its crew stops/change points with time to spare normally. I believe in most cases there are no crews that should get closer than 2 hours away from their outlaw times under normal circumstances.

Unfortunately, if something does go wrong or if the host RR doesn't give Amtrak enough priority, then there is the chance that a crew will outlaw. That of course now means that you must bring in a new crew early. And there are good reasons for not wanting to do that either. Once the crew reports for duty, even if they are not actually sitting in an engine or in a coach, they are on duty. The clock is running. So calling them up too early to drive them to a point where another crew outlawed, may well mean that they don't get to the next crew change point before outlawing.

And of course one also has to find someone to drive them to where ever the first crew outlawed, which isn't always easy either. It's not like Amtrak can afford to have someone just sitting around waiting to drive a new crew into place because a train failed to reach the normal change point.

This is unfortunately a very complex issue and one that isn't easy to deal with. There are times when Amtrak doesn't get it right, but there are also times when they do get it right. And getting it wrong can go either way, meaning that you leave a train stranded for too long or you get the crew there too early and then have problems further down the road.

Yet another problem with calling a crew too early can come from another direction. It is possible that the only crew that can be called is needed for another train. So if you pull them, now you've got yet another train that's going to have a problem. Also it's possible that the crew that was to replace the current crew is only considered fully rested by the time the train gets to the normal crew change point. If you have to call them 2 hours early to drive someplace, they may not actually be able to be called since they aren't fully rested by FRA rules.

It is a very complex problem, made more complicated by the fact that Amtrak doesn't control the tracks and the signals.

You are right, this problem costs Amtrak thousands, if not even a few million dollars each year. Between extra pay for the service crews who get paid from departure to arrival at the final stop, to busing costs, to hotel costs for misconnected passengers, to fuel for the engines idling in the middle of nowhere. But until and unless Congress gives either Amtrak or the FRA some teeth to sink into the freight companies that don't give Amtrak priority, Amtrak can't solve the problem. And of course there is the issue of, does Congress actually have the right to order a private company to do better.

 

[GG-1]

And of course there is the issue of, does Congress actually have the right to order a private company to do better.

Aloha

But what about living up to the Agreement with the government when Amtrak was created?

 

[Doc58301]

Thanks for the explanation Alan;

I see today that the CZ getting into Reno is at this time 5 1/2 hours late. I am sure that as the day goes on it will be later.

Maybe with the weather they have had in the plains, the loss of time could have started then.

I am driving from North Dakota to Denver and going to spend a nite with a niece and nephew, and get on the train the morning of March 03rd. I am planning on getting a roomette, I am going to fly back from Reno to Denver on the 9th, just because I have to be back to work on the 11th, and If the train is real late getting back into Denver, I will have to hustle to get home. I will make the most of the train trip. I just hope the train will not sit somewhere for hours. I guess that may be My biggest problem is the sitting. If the train was even chugging along at 20 mph it may not be so bad.

I am looking forward to the scenery. Since reading many different forums on the CZ, many people say that the scenery is the best of any Amtrak route. They say for the most part the Amtrak employees are very courteous and helpful, and of course that always helps make the trip pleasant even if the train is late.

Does anyone know what the traffic on the CZ is in March. Is there lots of riders. Would I be able to wait until I get to Union Station to get My ticket, or may they be sold out. Any help would be appreciated.

Thank You

Have a great day

Doc

 

[AmtrakWPK]

And as a new piece of legislation, a Senate bill, was just introduced (that topic is here: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?showtopic=8524 ) which would provide Amtrak with funding AND authorize fining freight RRs that delay Amtrak trains, perhaps they need to make those fines mandatory, and make them of a magnitude which is sufficient to pay for all those Amtrak costs, the fuel, the relief crews, the cost to transport them and pay them, the cost for hotels and alternate transportation for passengers, and so forth - all the foreseeable financial burdens for Amtrak that result when they are delayed by freight RRs. If the delay is an "Act of God" beyond the control of the freight RR, then the fine shouldn't be applicable, I think. But if the delay is caused by their deliberate act of NOT affording Amtrak trains priority over their own freight trains, then "sock it to 'em!" should be the order of the day.

And while it would be impossible, probably, to get this passed, it is worth considering that since Amtrak's very existence, and the existence of the priority requirement, IS ULTIMATELY FOR THE SOLE BENEFIT OF THE PASSENGERS ON THE TRAIN, since they are the "raison d'etre" for Amtrak, there is a strong argument to be made that, if the passengers are caused a financial hardship because a freight railroad's deliberate act(s), committed directly contrary to law, made the passengers late, that those passengers ought to have a cause-of-action against the freight RR for whatever their financial damages were, and they ought to be able to sue the freight RR for those damages. (And flying pigs will deliver that bill to the President for signature).....