You know Amtrak's "kindergarten walk" is ridiculous when

[Bob Dylan]

This is a reminder of how good the system is @ Union Station in LAX where one can go to the Platform thru the tunnel on your own, use a Red Cap via Cart or if in the Lounge have a Staff Member accompany those who don't know the way to their Platform!

Chicago, which lets Metra Riders flock to the plstforms , yet uses Gate Dragons for the ridiculously Small and Overcrowded Waiting Rooms and does a Kindergarten Walk from the Metro Lounge could Learn from this model!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This whole "kindergarten walk" thing seems like a minor thing to worry about! Have you ever watched people who don't know where they are going.....stopping in the middle of a crowd.....asking direction....totally confused? Doesn't Amtrak have much more serious issues to handle than this minor irritation and doesn't this forum have better things to worry about? Get over it!

Things were actually pretty calm until you started shouting about it. Once you've had a chance to calm down I'd like you to explain how stations like NYP are making it easier for people who don't know where they're going. The design is claustrophobic, the signs are confusing, the departure boards are censored until the last moment, and then the staff hold you up until you almost miss your train. When it comes to folks who don't know where they are going stations like NYP aren't helping anyone. I would have no problem whatsoever with Amtrak repurposing the angry gate dragons into friendly information clerks for folks who are new to riding Amtrak. In fact I'd strongly support that. What I do not support is holding everyone else back in the process. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Barciur]

In Philly there is no screens or boards or anything - so they would have to be installed before letting people just wander around platforms without being checked. And with high volume of Regionals and Keystones there, it's easy to mistake a train - heck, I've been close to doing that with the gate dragons there... Because the same platform had a WB Keystone on it and a EB Keystone on the other track. Use of info boards could go a long way!

 

[SarahZ]

This whole "kindergarten walk" thing seems like a minor thing to worry about! Have you ever watched people who don't know where they are going.....stopping in the middle of a crowd.....asking direction....totally confused? Doesn't Amtrak have much more serious issues to handle than this minor irritation and doesn't this forum have better things to worry about? Get over it!

I'm okay with confused people waiting for an escort as long as I'm allowed to board the train without having to wait to be escorted. Thousands of commuters use Metra every day, departing from the same platform area, and they are trusted to know which train to use. I would like that same level of respect, as I am quite capable of reading signs. I do it every time I'm in a different train station or airport, and I haven't gotten on the wrong train or plane yet.

 

[KierstenKress]

I will bookmark this thread and come back in September 2024.

I'm willing to bet that there will be no change to how Amtrak board trains at NYP, WAS, CHI, or other stations.

See you in 10 years.

 

[lstone19]

This whole "kindergarten walk" thing seems like a minor thing to worry about! Have you ever watched people who don't know where they are going.....stopping in the middle of a crowd.....asking direction....totally confused? Doesn't Amtrak have much more serious issues to handle than this minor irritation and doesn't this forum have better things to worry about? Get over it!

I'm okay with confused people waiting for an escort as long as I'm allowed to board the train without having to wait to be escorted. Thousands of commuters use Metra every day, departing from the same platform area, and they are trusted to know which train to use. I would like that same level of respect, as I am quite capable of reading signs. I do it every time I'm in a different train station or airport, and I haven't gotten on the wrong train or plane yet.

As a daily Metra rider, yes, the 95% of us who ride daily find their way to the right train. But on my rush-hour express, every week or two, we get someone who couldn't be bothered to read the schedule or destination board and wants to get off at a station we don't stop at. For instance, they know they want a Milwaukee West train so they get on the next one assuming every one stops at every station (just like every Red Line L train stops at every Red Line station).

OTOH, it is somewhat ridiculous. A few months ago, with Tracks 1 and 3 out of service for a week, my 5:05 train was boarding on Track 19 even as the 5:08 Hiawatha was boarding across the platform on Track 17. Metra passengers had free access to the platform even as Amtrak passengers were being forced through the lounge (although out on the platform, how was anyone to know). And if you know the arrangement there, you know that meant the two streams of passengers had to cross (Metra passengers entering the platform from left with our train on the right and v.v. for the Amtrak passengers). And still, you had a few people who couldn't tell an Amtrak train from a Metra train.

 

[SarahZ]

This whole "kindergarten walk" thing seems like a minor thing to worry about! Have you ever watched people who don't know where they are going.....stopping in the middle of a crowd.....asking direction....totally confused? Doesn't Amtrak have much more serious issues to handle than this minor irritation and doesn't this forum have better things to worry about? Get over it!

I'm okay with confused people waiting for an escort as long as I'm allowed to board the train without having to wait to be escorted. Thousands of commuters use Metra every day, departing from the same platform area, and they are trusted to know which train to use. I would like that same level of respect, as I am quite capable of reading signs. I do it every time I'm in a different train station or airport, and I haven't gotten on the wrong train or plane yet.

As a daily Metra rider, yes, the 95% of us who ride daily find their way to the right train. But on my rush-hour express, every week or two, we get someone who couldn't be bothered to read the schedule or destination board and wants to get off at a station we don't stop at. For instance, they know they want a Milwaukee West train so they get on the next one assuming every one stops at every station (just like every Red Line L train stops at every Red Line station).

OTOH, it is somewhat ridiculous. A few months ago, with Tracks 1 and 3 out of service for a week, my 5:05 train was boarding on Track 19 even as the 5:08 Hiawatha was boarding across the platform on Track 17. Metra passengers had free access to the platform even as Amtrak passengers were being forced through the lounge (although out on the platform, how was anyone to know). And if you know the arrangement there, you know that meant the two streams of passengers had to cross (Metra passengers entering the platform from left with our train on the right and v.v. for the Amtrak passengers). And still, you had a few people who couldn't tell an Amtrak train from a Metra train.

Right, but my point was that people are trusted to know which train to use. I think they should still have gate agents to show wayward/confused Amtrak travelers to their trains, but the percentage of travelers who know what we're doing and ride the LD trains out of Chicago frequently should be allowed to board from the gate instead of waiting in the cattle pen with the herd and walked out.

If Metra riders get to walk to their gate on their own, I want to be allowed to walk to my gate on my own, just like in an airport.

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

I'm pretty intelligent and still quite able bodied at 72. I have to fly to Chicago and other places to catch an Amtrak train and the so called "kindergarten" walk has never bothered me and in fact I quite enjoy it. I've traveled on the CZ and EB enough to know exactly where to go but still appreciate boarding from the Metro Lounge. Also I noted last time the Amtrak lounge agent only directed us to the right track and did not continue on a "kindergarten" hike with us once we were on the correct track. Never boarded coach at Chicago so I am not familiar with it. So complaints about the "kindergarten" boarding fall on my deaf ears.

 

[neroden]

I will bookmark this thread and come back in September 2024.

I'm willing to bet that there will be no change to how Amtrak board trains at NYP, WAS, CHI, or other stations.

See you in 10 years.

I'll take that bet. Amtrak will abandon its stupid kindergarten-walk / gate-dragon policies because train riders will demand that they abandon them... and there will be far more train riders than before, so it will be much less practical to engage in this nonsense.

With news media *and Congress* complaining at Amtrak about this, I think it'll get changed.

CUS already has very good signs (although the signs were way too chatty last time I was there, with overlapping voice announcements). "Proceed to Track 19" should be clear for 99.9% of people.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Neroden, nobody has ever gone broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.

 

[neroden]

GML: yeah, actually, they have. Only when it coincidentally causes them to damage their operations in another way (....like this is doing), but they sure have, I can remember several chains of stores which died pretty much exactly due to underestimating the intelligence of the American people.

("They'll never be smart enough to pick out item X from the shelves without our store employees assisting them! So our low-employee competitors will never get any business!")

 

[HAL]

I will bookmark this thread and come back in September 2024.

I'm willing to bet that there will be no change to how Amtrak board trains at NYP, WAS, CHI, or other stations.

See you in 10 years.

If there will be a change but it won't be the one the peanut gallery desires. That would be scanning all tickets before anyone can get to track. And no way to get down to the tracks in New York without being scanned.

 

[jis]

it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate. I did two flights yesterday, and both boardings were self scanned. Yeah there was a gate agent around to help those who had problem. but for the ones who did not they did not participate in any way in the boarding process. I was actually quite impressed and things moved along pretty quickly. I heard basically they want to explore the possibility of reducing the number of gate agents needed. They are also deploying self tagging of checked baggage.

The general philosophy should be to let those that know what they are doing do their thing and be on the way and yet be ready to help those that are lost or are unfamiliar etc.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

GML: yeah, actually, they have. Only when it coincidentally causes them to damage their operations in another way (....like this is doing), but they sure have, I can remember several chains of stores which died pretty much exactly due to underestimating the intelligence of the American people.

("They'll never be smart enough to pick out item X from the shelves without our store employees assisting them! So our low-employee competitors will never get any business!")

Totally different. Macy's, which is long over due to die a slow and painful death, for instance, has been understaffing their stores the way the big boxes do. Unfortunately that isn't what a Macys customer wants. Or they'd be at WalMart.

You are confusing overestimating personal intelligence with underestimating national intelligence. Different.

 

[Ryan]

it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate. I did two flights yesterday, and both boardings were self scanned. Yeah there was a gate agent around to help those who had problem. but for the ones who did not they did not participate in any way in the boarding process. I was actually quite impressed and things moved along pretty quickly. I heard basically they want to explore the possibility of reducing the number of gate agents needed. They are also deploying self tagging of checked baggage.

The general philosophy should be to let those that know what they are doing do their thing and be on the way and yet be ready to help those that are lost or are unfamiliar etc.

That sounds like a dream come true, for me at least. The less I have to interact with people (you chumps excluded, of course), the better.

 

[neroden]

it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate.

Or, better, like the standard ticket gates used in Britain.

Frankly, there's no way they can really gate the tracks at any of these stations unless they gate the tracks for the commuter operators as well. As a result, the change IS going to be that Amtrak will start to do things exactly like the commuter operator in the same station. Probably the commuter operator won't want to put in gates, and therefore Amtrak will stop its goofy pre-checking of tickets.

 

[HAL]

it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate. I did two flights yesterday, and both boardings were self scanned. Yeah there was a gate agent around to help those who had problem. but for the ones who did not they did not participate in any way in the boarding process. I was actually quite impressed and things moved along pretty quickly. I heard basically they want to explore the possibility of reducing the number of gate agents needed. They are also deploying self tagging of checked baggage.

The general philosophy should be to let those that know what they are doing do their thing and be on the way and yet be ready to help those that are lost or are unfamiliar etc.

That is what I believe will happen. Airport style self scan with a gate agent to help those who have a problem. And they will configure Boston, New York, Washington, Philadelphia so that all have to go thru the gate.

 

[neroden]

That is what I believe will happen. Airport style self scan with a gate agent to help those who have a problem. And they will configure Boston, New York, Washington, Philadelphia so that all have to go thru the gate.

Sure, as soon as the LIRR, NJT, MBTA, MARC, and VRE agree to use the same system. In other words, no, they won't configure them that way (for one thing, LIRR won't play nice with *anyone*).

I would have no problem with British-style ticket gates (walk onto the platform whenever you want, if you have a ticket). What I don't think can continue, in the long run, is for Amtrak to keep using a *different system* than the commuter operator who uses the *same platforms*.

 

[HAL]

That is what I believe will happen. Airport style self scan with a gate agent to help those who have a problem. And they will configure Boston, New York, Washington, Philadelphia so that all have to go thru the gate.

Sure, as soon as the LIRR, NJT, MBTA, MARC, and VRE agree to use the same system. In other words, no, they won't configure them that way (for one thing, LIRR won't play nice with *anyone*).

I would have no problem with British-style ticket gates (walk onto the platform whenever you want, if you have a ticket). What I don't think can continue, in the long run, is for Amtrak to keep using a *different system* than the commuter operator who uses the *same platforms*.

You have no imagination. The stations I mentioned can be configured that way. For sure what you desire, no gates, won't happen.

 

[SarahZ]

it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate. I did two flights yesterday, and both boardings were self scanned. Yeah there was a gate agent around to help those who had problem. but for the ones who did not they did not participate in any way in the boarding process. I was actually quite impressed and things moved along pretty quickly. I heard basically they want to explore the possibility of reducing the number of gate agents needed. They are also deploying self tagging of checked baggage.

The general philosophy should be to let those that know what they are doing do their thing and be on the way and yet be ready to help those that are lost or are unfamiliar etc.

Exactly.

I used the self-check-in and self-tagging machine at DFW last year and loved it.

 

[rickycourtney]

I think the boarding procedure in Los Angeles should be the gold standard for Amtrak:

• Large departures board in the lounges where track number is posted when assigned.
• Small boards at each track that displays the trains number, name, destination and departure time.
• Customer service agents available in the departures lounge to answer any questions and Red Cap service available to take less abled bodied passengers out to trains.
• Tickets collected by conductors onboard trains.

The system works well in Los Angeles and a similar system works well at nearly every train station in Europe.

 

[neroden]

The LA system is absolutely how it should work. That's the standard "open system". (The alternative, the standard "closed system", is to do it like the NYC Subway, with turnstiles everywhere, and that's not going to happen because nobody will do it at the rural stations.)

Hopefully fools like HAL will have no influence on Amtrak's future planning in this regard.

And HAL?

- Chicago cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of Metra (you can already bypass the idiocy if you're clever), particularly the platform which leads to the Ogilvie exit

- NY Penn cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of LIRR and NJT (you can already bypass the idiocy if you're clever, and people often do)

- DC cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of MARC and VRE

- Boston cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of the MBTA

This is because platforms are shared, as they should be. Amtrak could, if its management wanted to alienate *all* of its commuter rail partners, be asininely stupid and try to have isolated tracks for "Amtrak only" and separate them from the commuter rail platforms, reducing terminal capacity and delaying hundreds of trains.

Commuter and intercity platform seperation was done in the design of Philadelphia 30th St, but makes no sense given the design of these other stations; it would be the worst form of turf-war idiocy.

So HAL -- for sure, the crazy attempts at platform-gating will be eliminated. Guaranteed. Congress has already signalled what *its* opinion is, just as it did with pets. Were you one of the ones who said that Amtrak would never carry pets?.... Congress spoke, and Amtrak listened. It'll happen again.

 

[HAL]

The LA system is absolutely how it should work. That's the standard "open system". (The alternative, the standard "closed system", is to do it like the NYC Subway, with turnstiles everywhere, and that's not going to happen because nobody will do it at the rural stations.)

Hopefully fools like HAL will have no influence on Amtrak's future planning in this regard.

And HAL?

- Chicago cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of Metra (you can already bypass the idiocy if you're clever), particularly the platform which leads to the Ogilvie exit

- NY Penn cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of LIRR and NJT (you can already bypass the idiocy if you're clever, and people often do)

- DC cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of MARC and VRE

- Boston cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of the MBTA

This is because platforms are shared, as they should be. Amtrak could, if its management wanted to alienate *all* of its commuter rail partners, be asininely stupid and try to have isolated tracks for "Amtrak only" and separate them from the commuter rail platforms, reducing terminal capacity and delaying hundreds of trains.

Commuter and intercity platform seperation was done in the design of Philadelphia 30th St, but makes no sense given the design of these other stations; it would be the worst form of turf-war idiocy.

So HAL -- for sure, the crazy attempts at platform-gating will be eliminated. Guaranteed. Congress has already signalled what *its* opinion is, just as it did with pets. Were you one of the ones who said that Amtrak would never carry pets?.... Congress spoke, and Amtrak listened. It'll happen again.

Just because you are not clever enough to visualize how it can be done does not mean it won't be done. I can see how it could be done. I think I have been around the major NEC stations enough to know that it could be done at those.

I don't know what pets have to do with it. I never said never though. If Amtrak can make carrying pets work and not inconvenience passengers then that would be good.

 

[HAL]

I think the boarding procedure in Los Angeles should be the gold standard for Amtrak:

• Large departures board in the lounges where track number is posted when assigned.
• Small boards at each track that displays the trains number, name, destination and departure time.
• Customer service agents available in the departures lounge to answer any questions and Red Cap service available to take less abled bodied passengers out to trains.
• Tickets collected by conductors onboard trains.

The system works well in Los Angeles and a similar system works well at nearly every train station in Europe.

In Europe it varies by country. Some countries like the UK you have to have a ticket to get on the platform at big stations and there is either a gate or a person inspecting. In other countries like Italy you stamp your ticket and a conductor inspects on the train. A fine if you didn't time stamp the ticket. The ony place I recall tickets collected on the train by the conductor was I think, Norway.

I would love it to see conductors continue to collect tickets on the train , but I think Amtrak plans to do away with that.... if they can.... and have the tickets scanned at gates of some kind.

 

[neroden]

I would love it to see conductors continue to collect tickets on the train , but I think Amtrak plans to do away with that.... if they can.... and have the tickets scanned at gates of some kind.

They can't, not in 50 years. Try to put gates at Williston, ND, at Utica, NY, even at Denver, CO. Good luck trying. Not gonna happen.

If you can't gate 99% of the stations, trying to gate a couple of 'em is madness.

Sure, maybe they'd like to gate everything. But it's grossly impractical.