Yet Another Auto Train What If Thread

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A Superliner coach holds 74 or 75 passengers, so a car that holds 54 would be a 28% reduction in capacity.

Fares would have to increase at least 39% in order to break even just in revenue potential. As others and I have noted, this ignores the cost of acquiring or configuring the cars, and the cost of maintaining an extra set of spares and parts inventory in the fleet. So, with that, you're really looking at an increase of 45-50% in fare over coach to be worthwhile.
 
Looking on Amsnag in the month of October, there are 13 days where the sleepers are completely sold out. On one of those days, coach is sold out. Of the rest of those, one day still has coach seats at the lowest bucket, one at the next higher, three at the next higher and the rest at the highest bucket. This makes sense from a revenue management stand point. The question then is, if ALL the sleepers are sold out, why are there dates with LOW coach fares still available? There are no bedrooms available all month. Interestingly, there are days where the Family Bedroom is "N/A", other days where it's sold out and other days when it is available at $679. The roomettes are ALL at $398. In the whole month, it appears that there is only one day (10/1) where the seats are sold out but there are roomettes available.

That unscientific overview to me indicates that the Autotrain is a wildly popular train and that coach is not why people ride it. People ride the AT in spite of coach.

To AlanB's point, go with the 2AC 2-Tier scheme which holds 54. Capacity is reduced by 11, cost could be increased by 20%, it looks like revenue could easily be increased by 20%.
People ride the AT because it is an easy way to get where they are going without the hassle of driving. It really has little to do with sleepers or coach seats. Would you rather drive I-95 and stay in a roadside motel or put your car on AT and get a meal and continental breakfast, wether you paid or coach or sleeper. As has been pointed out, Amtrak is not going to buy new equipment o experiment with change, plus it is working fine now. I really think it is your obsession with not wanting to ride in coach thatbisvdriving this thread and your proposals. Do you think all LD trains should be sleeper only?
 
I find some of the discussion on this thread amusing. The Autotrain is one of Amtraks most successful routes and one of the highest revenue producers in the system. Why would Amtrak want to change this? The only change that might make sense is the addition of additional sleepers and/or coaches to expand capacity when needed. I believe that the A/T may now also be at maxiumum operating capacity and adding any additional cars would require upgrading the power grid system or adding more head end power.

As for the "three high berth" sleeper system used on Indias railroads. Have you seen pictures of them?? You'd have to be as thin as a sardine to fit in those bunks and then how would you comply with federal RR safety requirements???? Not going to happen.
 
The following thoughts from me are not specifically about the Auto Train but about the whole idea of using Sections, and using IR 3AC as a model for such.

Well, looking at India Rail, the best comparison would be a 3AC configuration which seats and sleeps 78. It's 3 + 1 across seating, three berths high on one side perpendicular to the sides, three high on the other side parallel to the wall. This leaves a pretty narrow aisle, but the kicker is that this is on a broad gauge train as opposed to standard gauge. I suppose the average rider could look at a 3AC India Rail and shout "Not on MY Amtrak", but perhaps it can be designed with a bit more American flair. Whatever that means... A more appropriate level of comfort would be two across, two high. This could have as much many as 48 - 54 in a single section car.
Indian sized berths would be inadequate in the US. AC3 would be a formula for failure in the US, and even more so in Superliners. There simply isn't enough height available to make it work. As for berth length, they work fine in a country where average height of users is considerably less than in the US. IR AC2 may work, but forget about the aisle side thing. In general berth in semi-cubes makes the whole thing much more claustrophobic in my opinion.

BTW, Indian LD train cars are no wider than American ones. Only the track gauge is wider in India. Not the loading gauge for standard passenger stock.

My suspicion is that realistically getting any more capacity than one could get with a roomette only car (4 berths per window row) would be difficult. That is what the classic Sections had anyway, as do the Sections on the Canadian. So count something like 32 berths (8 rows x 4) on a Viewliner, leaving room for common facilities using 1 or two rows, and they could be arranged either as roomettes or as open sections, the latter allowing for individual berth sale as opposed to sale of an entire roomette. So the up-charge for a section berth would be about half that for the roomette, and potentially it would earn a bit more than a roomette car since a transport charge is guaranteed per berth, which is not the case in roomettes for those rooms sold to singles.

I find some of the discussion on this thread amusing. The Autotrain is one of Amtraks most successful routes and one of the highest revenue producers in the system. Why would Amtrak want to change this? The only change that might make sense is the addition of additional sleepers and/or coaches to expand capacity when needed. I believe that the A/T may now also be at maxiumum operating capacity and adding any additional cars would require upgrading the power grid system or adding more head end power.
Agreed

As for the "three high berth" sleeper system used on Indias railroads. Have you seen pictures of them?? You'd have to be as thin as a sardine to fit in those bunks and then how would you comply with federal RR safety requirements???? Not going to happen.
I agree. It is unrealistic to use the Indian Railways 3AC as an example for anything other than coffins IMHO. :) And specially on Superliners they are completely unrealistic. How do you fit three berths vertically in less than 8'?

To AlanB's point, go with the 2AC 2-Tier scheme which holds 54. Capacity is reduced by 11, cost could be increased by 20%, it looks like revenue could easily be increased by 20%.
The berths will be narrower than the Coach seats, and the quality of daytime seating sucks. Keep dreaming. ;) Frankly, I'd go for an Amtrak LD Coach seat over those berths and daytime seats anyday. More realistic capacity is 32 or 36 depending on how much space is taken away for common facilities, using a classic Section layout. It is unrealistic to believe that any sleeping facility that is smaller than the classic Sections will work.
 
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Looking on Amsnag in the month of October, there are 13 days where the sleepers are completely sold out. On one of those days, coach is sold out. Of the rest of those, one day still has coach seats at the lowest bucket, one at the next higher, three at the next higher and the rest at the highest bucket. This makes sense from a revenue management stand point. The question then is, if ALL the sleepers are sold out, why are there dates with LOW coach fares still available? There are no bedrooms available all month. Interestingly, there are days where the Family Bedroom is "N/A", other days where it's sold out and other days when it is available at $679. The roomettes are ALL at $398. In the whole month, it appears that there is only one day (10/1) where the seats are sold out but there are roomettes available.

That unscientific overview to me indicates that the Autotrain is a wildly popular train and that coach is not why people ride it. People ride the AT in spite of coach.

To AlanB's point, go with the 2AC 2-Tier scheme which holds 54. Capacity is reduced by 11, cost could be increased by 20%, it looks like revenue could easily be increased by 20%.
People ride the AT because it is an easy way to get where they are going without the hassle of driving. It really has little to do with sleepers or coach seats. Would you rather drive I-95 and stay in a roadside motel or put your car on AT and get a meal and continental breakfast, wether you paid or coach or sleeper. As has been pointed out, Amtrak is not going to buy new equipment o experiment with change, plus it is working fine now. I really think it is your obsession with not wanting to ride in coach thatbisvdriving this thread and your proposals. Do you think all LD trains should be sleeper only?
If you go back to the OP, you'll see that I DON'T advocate all LD trains being sleeper only. Just trains where the entire ride is through the night and it doesn't stop to let people on and off between terminii.
 
I'd sleep inside my car back in the auto rack before I'd sleep in an open section.

But that's just me.
I've slept in an open section on VIA's Canadian for three nights straight. One of the best sleeping experiences I've ever had the chance to enjoy. Like people say about dining experiences, don't diss it until you've tried it.
 
I'd sleep inside my car back in the auto rack before I'd sleep in an open section.

But that's just me.
I've slept in an open section on VIA's Canadian for three nights straight. One of the best sleeping experiences I've ever had the chance to enjoy. Like people say about dining experiences, don't diss it until you've tried it.
I have slept in an open section a couple of nights in Malaysia, one night each time. As a male in his 50's I did not feel uncomfortable, but I would not recommend it to my wife or daughter or any other female friend or relative. In fact I would tell they should not do it.
 
I'd sleep inside my car back in the auto rack before I'd sleep in an open section.

But that's just me.
I've slept in an open section on VIA's Canadian for three nights straight. One of the best sleeping experiences I've ever had the chance to enjoy. Like people say about dining experiences, don't diss it until you've tried it.
I have slept in an open section a couple of nights in Malaysia, one night each time. As a male in his 50's I did not feel uncomfortable, but I would not recommend it to my wife or daughter or any other female friend or relative. In fact I would tell they should not do it.
I have traveled on the Butterworth-KL and the KL-Singapore night trains several times in 2nd Class sleeper and really enjoyed it. My girlfriend went with me once and she simply wore sweatpants and she felt very comfortable. And we met the coolest group of people on BW-KL leg. Our end of the car had a Malaysian family of Indian descent, a Balinese guy, a British geologist and a young Thai couple. We had more fun picking different foods from the vendors and listening to the geologist give an impromptu symposium on karst formations and on geology's impact on agriculture and industrialization.

I loved the overnight trains in Asia, but I have to admit, I only traveled them the one roundtrip with my girlfriend. And I kind of doubt the 2nd class sleepers we see in Thailand and Malaysia would be really popular with Americans, but you never know. The main problem is that they would cost to much to retrofit in, and any new cars would probably be a mix of regular sleepers and coach cars.

Which is why I still wish there was a way to retrofit several of the Superliner cars by removing 7 rows of coach seats in the center of the cars and installing 6 rows of Lay Flat At An Angle seats like the airliners use. Most of the airliners turn their seats slightly towards the windows to fit them into 55" which probably wouldn't work on Amtrak (on edit: or would it?) so they would need a little more room, hence the removal of 7 rows of coach seats and the installation of just 6 rows of LFAAA would yield around 58" of pitch for each seat (would orienting the seats slightly towards the window help give you more space?), and since your feet would be under the seat in front of you while you are sleeping, it would give you around 78" of LFAAA bed and it would be a lot more comfortable than a regular coach seat. I have slept on this type of seat and while the angle is noticeable, it is a LOT more comfortable than a coach seat and you could put in 24 LFAAA seats in the space taken from 28 regular coach seats. If you pay a third more for a LFAAA, which I would be ecstatic to do, Amtrak would be gaining revenue while giving their customers more choices, and it would not cost them a great deal to do this.

Give LD passengers a choice between Coach, Coach in a LFAAA seat w/ no meals included, or Roomettes/Bedrooms with meals included and you simply expand the amount of people who will consider taking a train for longer distances and enhance your bottom line. Convert one car on each consist of the EB and the CZ, give it a small amount of advertizing and see what happens. My bet is that the LFAAA seats would sell out very quickly.
 
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I have pondered the possibility of using airline style lie-flats in Amtrak cars. One significant issue to contend with I think will be that of maintenance. Those seats are relatively high maintenance items compared to anything that Amtrak has today Remember that unlike the European railroads, Amtrak isn;t even at a stage where they have power seats or seats with AVOD. So experience with handling seats with any electronics at them beyond a non-working headphone connection in Acelas is currently non-existent. Not saying that that cannot change, but it is still a consideration.

Compared to that, doing a Section style setup is easier IMHO, and the relative amount of capacity that can be had is not that different according to my back of the envelope calculation that I have posted on this forum in the past.
 
I'd sleep inside my car back in the auto rack before I'd sleep in an open section.

But that's just me.
I've slept in an open section on VIA's Canadian for three nights straight. One of the best sleeping experiences I've ever had the chance to enjoy. Like people say about dining experiences, don't diss it until you've tried it.
I don't need to try it to know that I'd not be comfortable with it. I don't sleep "in public." Don't sleep in coach seats, don't sleep on airliners.
 
One thing not mentioned was the political implications. "Rich" people take bedrooms (or first class). "Poor" people take coach. Subsidizing a train that only carries the "rich"? Fat chance! What a target for those that want to eliminate Amtrak! You now add the cut-government-spending-by-eliminating-Amtrak crowd with the racist-rich-travel-in-luxury-subsidized-by-the-poor-who-had-their-commuter-bus-prices-increased-last-year crowd.

At least with a mixed train, Amtrak could say the "rich" bedroom users are subsidizing the "poor" coach riders. As for Acela, it doesn't matter. Senators and congressmen ride those and they are exempt from any rules that pertain to the little people so only those outside the northeast want to eliminate them.
 
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