Would Open Plan/Kupe/Couchette sleepers be profitable?

[Lars223]

Traveling on Amtrak recently on the Silver Meteor from NYP - Orlando, I walked through coach class at ~10 PM and saw many people trying to do their best to get some sleep but seeming unable to due to the given conditions. Then I wondered, what if Amtrak offered very basic sleeping accommodations like the types below from different countries?

Russia/CIS countries:

China:

Europe:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That's been thrown around on here alot. I think the general consensus, though I disagree with it, is that Americans wouldn't be willing to share a room with other people and thus it would be a flop.

 

[Guest]

That's been thrown around on here alot. I think the general consensus, though I disagree with it, is that Americans wouldn't be willing to share a room with other people and thus it would be a flop.

On the other hand a type of slumber coach where one would have their own bed with a little privacy for a lower price (sans meals in the diner)would go over big on the LD trains, especially the two nighters in the West and the sold out ones like the Card and the LSL!

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I sure wouldn't want to be on Tier 3 of that European job

 

[BigRedEO]

I sure wouldn't want to be on Tier 3 of that European job

I was thinking the same thing!! With my claustrophobia, I would rather try to sleep in a chair all night!

Someone mentioned privacy - what about the older style sleeper accommodations we used to have in America - famously utilized in the movie "Some Like It Hot"? An upper and lower with just a curtain to pull across for a little bit of privacy?

 

[Donctor]

That's been thrown around on here alot. I think the general consensus, though I disagree with it, is that Americans wouldn't be willing to share a room with other people and thus it would be a flop.

On the other hand a type of slumber coach where one would have their own bed with a little privacy for a lower price (sans meals in the diner)would go over big on the LD trains, especially the two nighters in the West and the sold out ones like the Card and the LSL!

I don't think they would go over well in the west, at least not on multiple-night trips. Apparently Amtrak agreed, which is why they were moved to the eastern trains a few years before Superliners arrived. Today, they might do best on the Florida trains.

 

[PerRock]

I sure wouldn't want to be on Tier 3 of that European job

I actually was assigned and slept in one of those while traveling Europe; and didn't find it to tight of a squeeze; I thought it was very similar to a Superliner bunk, maybe even better; as with the perpendicular (to the train direction) setup means that everyone can look out the window. There is also a "little" cubby up there (going on top of the hallway) that is big enough for my backpacking backpack to fit in.

As for privacy; most people either didn't change (In Europe your rarely doing multipul nights in a train) or went to the bathroom to do so; just like one would do in a coach seat. Which however meant that when 'bedtime' drew near there was a bit of a line for the couple bathrooms (2 I think).

I also shared a night in one of the overnight coach compartments and with the exception of not having a great blanket, had no problems. The seats pulled out and flattened down to form a bed going parallel with the train which didn't make the worst of beds (upright on some airplanes is worse, and in my mind upright in general is worse) however I do see issues with sleeping in the bed formation if all 6 chairs are taken. I & the other guy in my compartment early one set ours up for sleeping, so that people passing would not join.

Final thoughts:

I did enjoy sharing the night with someone, In the morning (in the sleeper) you got breakfast (cold, with a hot beverage) delivered and the lower two bunks (on each side) fold up to form seats (issue I guess if your bottom bunker sleeps in) where we (by then only two people were left in the room, including me) sat and ate breakfast and chatted; a lot like the dining cars.

peter

Edit: About having them over here; I would hazard a guess that if Amtrak were to make them reserved (as they are in EU) and had it as an upgrade. When you went to upgrade to it you there would be a little 'description' that would be there saying that this is an Shared Sleeper Compartment, that you may be assigned some bunk mates. And then gave people to option to upgrade to a regular sleeper if they do not want to share; that would eliminate most of the issues. Personally I think the shared sleeper idea is a great one.

 

[jphjaxfl]

That's been thrown around on here alot. I think the general consensus, though I disagree with it, is that Americans wouldn't be willing to share a room with other people and thus it would be a flop.

On the other hand a type of slumber coach where one would have their own bed with a little privacy for a lower price (sans meals in the diner)would go over big on the LD trains, especially the two nighters in the West and the sold out ones like the Card and the LSL!

I don't think they would go over well in the west, at least not on multiple-night trips. Apparently Amtrak agreed, which is why they were moved to the eastern trains a few years before Superliners arrived. Today, they might do best on the Florida trains.

The Burlington Northern and predecessors used Slumbercoaches on the North Coast Limited between Chicago and Seattle from the late 1950s when some were specially built for the train until 1971. They were very popular. The Slumbercoaches were starting to get older and some were retired so Amtrak didn't have enough to use on Western trains.

 

[Ispolkom]

Someone mentioned privacy - what about the older style sleeper accommodations we used to have in America - famously utilized in the movie "Some Like It Hot"? An upper and lower with just a curtain to pull across for a little bit of privacy?

They weren't well-liked. Pullman (which had almost a monopoly on sleepers) had difficulties selling them, especially the upper berths. They tried various schemes, such as selling the whole section at a slight additional cost to the cost of a lower berth, but after World War 2 section sleepers were increasingly replaced by sleepers offering enclosed accommodations (roomettes, duplex roomettes, etc.). I've read that some section sleepers held on because the U.S. government would not pay for more than a lower berth, but I don't know if that was true.

I've traveled platskartnyi (the top example) and found it a bit too communal for the 12 hour Kiev-Moscow run. The couchette rides I've done (Paris-Pisa, Florence-Brussels) were better, but the compartment was pretty full with six travelers. I always liked the slumbercoaches on the Washington-Atlanta part of the Crescent -- I was sorry to seem them go as that seemed a perfect route for them.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Someone mentioned privacy - what about the older style sleeper accommodations we used to have in America - famously utilized in the movie "Some Like It Hot"? An upper and lower with just a curtain to pull across for a little bit of privacy?

They weren't well-liked. Pullman (which had almost a monopoly on sleepers) had difficulties selling them, especially the upper berths. They tried various schemes, such as selling the whole section at a slight additional cost to the cost of a lower berth, but after World War 2 section sleepers were increasingly replaced by sleepers offering enclosed accommodations (roomettes, duplex roomettes, etc.). I've read that some section sleepers held on because the U.S. government would not pay for more than a lower berth, but I don't know if that was true.

I've traveled platskartnyi (the top example) and found it a bit too communal for the 12 hour Kiev-Moscow run. The couchette rides I've done (Paris-Pisa, Florence-Brussels) were better, but the compartment was pretty full with six travelers. I always liked the slumbercoaches on the Washington-Atlanta part of the Crescent -- I was sorry to seem them go as that seemed a perfect route for them.

Add me to the list of people who have heard that sections were largely preferred by the military and the government.

They were, indeed, largely replaced by roomettes as noted above post. But still some good streamlined trains were an exception to the rule and still had them. Such trains probably served several military posts.

They still have them on The Canadian,but they seem largely empty.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Canadian still has sections with uppers and lowers, these great old cars(from the 1950s/being remodeled currently) are very comfortable, and by far cheaper than than the enclosed rooms on this train! The only caveat as the previous poster said is the upper is not as comfortable, but it's the cheapest sleeper fare available (the person occupying the lower gets choice of which day seat to occupy, facing forward or "backwards")! There is no real difference between this than a roomette when two are traveling together except in the daytime there is no privacy available as the curtain is open and the sections look similar to the coaches! You do have to share the space with a stranger if traveling alone which others have noted is not a typical American trait!

 

[rrdude]

That's been thrown around on here alot. I think the general consensus, though I disagree with it, is that Americans wouldn't be willing to share a room with other people and thus it would be a flop.

On the other hand a type of slumber coach where one would have their own bed with a little privacy for a lower price (sans meals in the diner)would go over big on the LD trains, especially the two nighters in the West and the sold out ones like the Card and the LSL!

I don't think they would go over well in the west, at least not on multiple-night trips. Apparently Amtrak agreed, which is why they were moved to the eastern trains a few years before Superliners arrived. Today, they might do best on the Florida trains.

Via still has them, as I was on The Ocean in April. Both Bedroom-SlumberCoach type, and the open berths/Sectional, just with a curtain. I think Amtrak should offer a reduced price bedroom. The downside, (unless you use the Viewliner prototype, and design new shells) would be throwing in ANOTHER type of car for maintenance, parts, etc., etc.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I sure wouldn't want to be on Tier 3 of that European job

I actually was assigned and slept in one of those while traveling Europe; and didn't find it to tight of a squeeze; I thought it was very similar to a Superliner bunk, maybe even better; as with the perpendicular (to the train direction) setup means that everyone can look out the window. There is also a "little" cubby up there (going on top of the hallway) that is big enough for my backpacking backpack to fit in.

As for privacy; most people either didn't change (In Europe your rarely doing multipul nights in a train) or went to the bathroom to do so; just like one would do in a coach seat. Which however meant that when 'bedtime' drew near there was a bit of a line for the couple bathrooms (2 I think).

I also shared a night in one of the overnight coach compartments and with the exception of not having a great blanket, had no problems. The seats pulled out and flattened down to form a bed going parallel with the train which didn't make the worst of beds (upright on some airplanes is worse, and in my mind upright in general is worse) however I do see issues with sleeping in the bed formation if all 6 chairs are taken. I & the other guy in my compartment early one set ours up for sleeping, so that people passing would not join.

Final thoughts:

I did enjoy sharing the night with someone, In the morning (in the sleeper) you got breakfast (cold, with a hot beverage) delivered and the lower two bunks (on each side) fold up to form seats (issue I guess if your bottom bunker sleeps in) where we (by then only two people were left in the room, including me) sat and ate breakfast and chatted; a lot like the dining cars.

peter

Edit: About having them over here; I would hazard a guess that if Amtrak were to make them reserved (as they are in EU) and had it as an upgrade. When you went to upgrade to it you there would be a little 'description' that would be there saying that this is an Shared Sleeper Compartment, that you may be assigned some bunk mates. And then gave people to option to upgrade to a regular sleeper if they do not want to share; that would eliminate most of the issues. Personally I think the shared sleeper idea is a great one.

I traveled from Istanbul to Paris on the Direct Orient second class WagonLit. The other occupant who was a little older than me at the time was Swiss Student who had came from Beruit, Lebanon to Haydrpassa, Turkey on the Taraus Express. He was a nice guy and was multi ligual. There was no restaurant car until Venice. The train had long stops at Sofia and Belgrad. This guy knew the Slavic languages so I knew what I was eating when we got food. We stayed in touch for several years after that trip. The Europeans can become your friend on a long train trip.

 

[George Harris]

The three high as seen in the Chinese train is not bad. I have seen them in the flesh, but not ridden in one. there cars are quite large, generally being to teh samae cross section as the Russian cars which seems to be slightly larger than an American single level car. These bunks are long enough for a six foot person, and with the open end and reasonable clearance not that claustrophobic. The bad position is the bottom bunk, as that is everybody's seat.

Note that the woman looking out the window is sitting on a flip down seat, of which there is one oppoosite each tier of bunks.

As to the European three level, the clearance above the top bunk is so small that the only way I would stay there is either unconcious or dead.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

That's been thrown around on here alot. I think the general consensus, though I disagree with it, is that Americans wouldn't be willing to share a room with other people and thus it would be a flop.

On the other hand a type of slumber coach where one would have their own bed with a little privacy for a lower price (sans meals in the diner)would go over big on the LD trains, especially the two nighters in the West and the sold out ones like the Card and the LSL!

I don't think they would go over well in the west, at least not on multiple-night trips. Apparently Amtrak agreed, which is why they were moved to the eastern trains a few years before Superliners arrived. Today, they might do best on the Florida trains.

Via still has them, as I was on The Ocean in April. Both Bedroom-SlumberCoach type, and the open berths/Sectional, just with a curtain. I think Amtrak should offer a reduced price bedroom. The downside, (unless you use the Viewliner prototype, and design new shells) would be throwing in ANOTHER type of car for maintenance, parts, etc., etc.

Just a slight correction. They are called called sections, not sectionals.

There is such a word as sectional but if is a furniture term in your house, not an accommodation on a train.

 

[Donctor]

That's been thrown around on here alot. I think the general consensus, though I disagree with it, is that Americans wouldn't be willing to share a room with other people and thus it would be a flop.

On the other hand a type of slumber coach where one would have their own bed with a little privacy for a lower price (sans meals in the diner)would go over big on the LD trains, especially the two nighters in the West and the sold out ones like the Card and the LSL!

I don't think they would go over well in the west, at least not on multiple-night trips. Apparently Amtrak agreed, which is why they were moved to the eastern trains a few years before Superliners arrived. Today, they might do best on the Florida trains.

The Burlington Northern and predecessors used Slumbercoaches on the North Coast Limited between Chicago and Seattle from the late 1950s when some were specially built for the train until 1971. They were very popular. The Slumbercoaches were starting to get older and some were retired so Amtrak didn't have enough to use on Western trains.

Really? My understanding is that Amtrak saved all of them, and even bought the remaining non-1971 acquisitions in 79-82. They used as many of the Budd 16/10s and 24/8s as they could get their hands on.

 

[lthanlon]

Considering how many newbie questions there are here about whether one person reserving a roomette will be forced to sleep with a stranger should give you an indication of how well shared sleeping accommodations would go over.

In addition, any shared sleeping accommodation could run afoul of gender-based anti-discrimination laws.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The Europe T6 car that is pictured is set up for use as an T4 space. The top two bunks are not in used. The compartment was sold as or only has 4 guest ride in it. Travel in Western Europe is much more like the US today. Private rooms. Much less an bunch of strangers travel in the same room. Eastern Europe still has the co-ed stranger in the same room.

When the room is set up for an T6 the bunks slide lower so each bunk has an tiny but even amount of space.

It would seem in Western Europe they can not sell the space as an T6 so the top two bunks are lift up giving more space for the other 4 bunks, and sell it as an T4.

 

[Guest]

Sounds/looks like racks on Navy ships, those that never had that joy didn't miss anything for sure! Must be why most of us dislike the "coffin" (top bunk) in the Superliner roomettes! Seems like that Western Europeans have acquired the privacy bug, I can remember back in the day when sharing compartments/hotel rooms with strangers was the rule instead of the exception in Europe! Guess the youth hostels are the closest thing we have left!

 

[Heading North]

I've made three overnight trips in Europe (Paris-Rome, Rome-Paris, Berlin-Amsterdam) over the past five years and opted for the T4 rather than the T6 for those reasons (and encouraged friends to pay extra for the same). The T4 can be pretty comfortable, especially on the bottom bunk. The one time that a French duplex sleeper for two without air conditioning was thrown into the mix... not so good (although interesting layout-wise, and it did have a sink).

I don't think I saw anyone but students and young people in the couchettes, although these were 3 summer trips that may not be representative.

 

[JAChooChoo]

The original California Zephyr carried a 16 section sleeper.

 

[Donctor]

The Europe T6 car that is pictured is set up for use as an T4 space. The top two bunks are not in used. The compartment was sold as or only has 4 guest ride in it. Travel in Western Europe is much more like the US today. Private rooms. Much less an bunch of strangers travel in the same room. Eastern Europe still has the co-ed stranger in the same room.
When the room is set up for an T6 the bunks slide lower so each bunk has an tiny but even amount of space.

It would seem in Western Europe they can not sell the space as an T6 so the top two bunks are lift up giving more space for the other 4 bunks, and sell it as an T4.

When I took the Pau Casals in late March, that was not the case.

 

[Donctor]

The original California Zephyr carried a 16 section sleeper.

It certainly did. Those cars proved unpopular, and the 16-section sleepers were converted to 48-seat coaches. Three of those coaches went through the Heritage program and ran through the early 1990s. (More than three may have made it to Amtrak, but the only ones I'm aware of that got refurbished were 4740-4742.)

 

[jis]

The Europe T6 car that is pictured is set up for use as an T4 space. The top two bunks are not in used. The compartment was sold as or only has 4 guest ride in it.

In India there are both so called 3-tier and 2-tier open sections in bays like in China. The 3-tier costs less than 2-tier. Those two are available in the Air-conditioned cars, In non-A/C sleeper I believe there is only 3-tier now. There used to be 2-tiers too but they seem to have disappeared. AFAIK there is no private room accommodation on IR. The so called A/C First Class is rather large rooms with 2 or 4 berths that are shared with strangers. They expend considerable effort to make sure that completely random people that are unlikely to work with each other are not placed in the same room, couples are put in 2 berth compartments etc.

 

[PerRock]

I've made three overnight trips in Europe (Paris-Rome, Rome-Paris, Berlin-Amsterdam) over the past five years and opted for the T4 rather than the T6 for those reasons (and encouraged friends to pay extra for the same). The T4 can be pretty comfortable, especially on the bottom bunk. The one time that a French duplex sleeper for two without air conditioning was thrown into the mix... not so good (although interesting layout-wise, and it did have a sink).
I don't think I saw anyone but students and young people in the couchettes, although these were 3 summer trips that may not be representative.

My trip (ended about a year ago) I did not have the option as to which type of sleeper I wanted (beyond my own or a shared) All the ones I saw on my train were 6-person and they seemed to all be full. The couchettes on my other over night trip also filled up.

peter