Worst Curves on the Northeast Corridor

[gren]

I was wondering what the worst curves on the Northeast Corridor were. I was having fund creating a little map of them. Some that come to mind are Zoo Interlocking, the South exit of the B&P. What are other ones and which ones can be smoothed and which ones have almost no hope of smoothing? (Posting a satellite map of the area is always nice.)

 

[AlanB]

I'd certainly include the Elizabeth, NJ S-Curve in that list (causes a 50MPH limit IIRC, in what would otherwise be over 100MPH), the Bridgeport, CT curve on Metro North (35MPH IIRC, might even be 25MPH), and the curves in New London, CT. Note: I picked probably the worst curve in the New London area, but there are other major curves west of New London.

 

[acelafan]

I was wondering what the worst curves on the Northeast Corridor were. I was having fund creating a little map of them. Some that come to mind are Zoo Interlocking, the South exit of the B&P. What are other ones and which ones can be smoothed and which ones have almost no hope of smoothing? (Posting a satellite map of the area is always nice.)

Neat question...I'm interested in the NEC alignment, as well. Back in October I had my GPS device record my trek from WAS to BOS on the overnight #66 so I could look at the route in Google Earth. A copy of the file "NE_Corridor_WAS_to_BOS_20091010.gpx" is located here and you can open it directly in Google Earth. Connecticut is a state full of curves!

I know some other members have GIS files (as well as data from the Federal Railroad Admin) but of course I enjoyed looking at my own track up the NEC!

 

[jis]

I'd certainly include the Elizabeth, NJ S-Curve in that list (causes a 50MPH limit IIRC, in what would otherwise be over 100MPH),

I believe trains have to adhere to an Approach Medium signal through the Elizabeth S-Curve which would place the speed limit at 45mph. Before some Amtrak jock tried to take that curve at 100mph the signal aspect used to be Clear with a speed limit of 50mph IIRC. But after that misadventure FRA stepped in and required that all trains get an Approach Medium in that block thus enforcing 45mph through cab signal enforcement.

 

[AlanB]

Thanks for clarifying that Jishnu.

I didn't recall the specific numbers, just knew that there was a huge drop in speed there.

 

[jis]

I didn't recall the specific numbers, just knew that there was a huge drop in speed there.

Yes the low speed is in the entire block starting near North Elizabeth and ending at CP Elmora which is where the 6-roads begins west of Elizabeth.

 

[gren]

Neat question...I'm interested in the NEC alignment, as well. Back in October I had my GPS device record my trek from WAS to BOS on the overnight #66 so I could look at the route in Google Earth. A copy of the file "NE_Corridor_WAS_to_BOS_20091010.gpx" is located here and you can open it directly in Google Earth. Connecticut is a state full of curves!
I know some other members have GIS files (as well as data from the Federal Railroad Admin) but of course I enjoyed looking at my own track up the NEC!

Wow, thanks! That's pretty nice to see it. The main reason I'm curious about this is trying to figure out what it would take for 125+mph average speed service from DC to NYC. Does anyone know enough to do a speed limit overlay over the GPS tracks?

 

[jis]

Wow, thanks! That's pretty nice to see it. The main reason I'm curious about this is trying to figure out what it would take for 125+mph average speed service from DC to NYC. Does anyone know enough to do a speed limit overlay over the GPS tracks?

$20 to $30 billion since significant part of the current RoW will need to be bypassed and electrification and signaling and control systems will need to be upgraded to achieve that. As I recall, Amtrak has a document somewhere identifying what needs to be done.

For speed limits you will need to find someone who has Employee Timetables. There are a few around on this and other boards I think.

 

[George Harris]

The current speed limit south of New York is 135 mph due to catenary concerns.

Between New York and New Haven, meaningless due to curvature

Between New Haven and Boston, 150 mph for about 11 miles. the rest less due to curves.

 

[PRR 60]

The current speed limit south of New York is 135 mph due to catenary concerns. Between New York and New Haven, meaningless due to curvature

Between New Haven and Boston, 150 mph for about 11 miles. the rest less due to curves.

The speed south (RR west) of New York is limited by both catenary and signaling. The 150 mph sections in RI and MA now total about 32 miles.

 

[PRR 60]

Frankford Junction in Philadelphia is a pretty nasty curve on the NEC. It is also the site of one of the PRR's worst wrecks. 79 passeners died there when the Congressional Limited derailed and struck and collapsed a signal structure the day after Labor Day in 1943.

Another Philadelphia bottleneck is Zoo interlocking. This is where the Washington-bound NEC route veers to the south off what was the old PRR mainline. The curve to the south at this point is tight, and will likely always be that way.

 

[jis]

The current speed limit south of New York is 135 mph due to catenary concerns. Between New York and New Haven, meaningless due to curvature

Between New Haven and Boston, 150 mph for about 11 miles. the rest less due to curves.

I believe there are four sections between NYP and WAS where 135mph is allowed. The two that are south/west of Susquehanna River I am not quite sure about where they are. The other two are County to Ham in NJ (only on tracks 2 and 3) and Ragan to Prince in DE and MD (again only on 2 and 3) In those segments tracks 2 and 3 are equipped with ACSES. Only Acelas with operational ACSES equipment are allowed the speed higher than 125mph.

Of course someone with a current ETT can give more definitive info, and even correct me, since I am simply stating based on vague memory.

 

[Big Iron]

I was wondering what the worst curves on the Northeast Corridor were. I was having fund creating a little map of them. Some that come to mind are Zoo Interlocking, the South exit of the B&P. What are other ones and which ones can be smoothed and which ones have almost no hope of smoothing? (Posting a satellite map of the area is always nice.)

I think they were on the cafe attendant on the last Regional I rode........I got a millio of em.........I'll be here all week.......... Sorry had a bad day and was in need of a little humor. My apologies.

 

[Steve4031]

I was wondering what the worst curves on the Northeast Corridor were. I was having fund creating a little map of them. Some that come to mind are Zoo Interlocking, the South exit of the B&P. What are other ones and which ones can be smoothed and which ones have almost no hope of smoothing? (Posting a satellite map of the area is always nice.)

Neat question...I'm interested in the NEC alignment, as well. Back in October I had my GPS device record my trek from WAS to BOS on the overnight #66 so I could look at the route in Google Earth. A copy of the file "NE_Corridor_WAS_to_BOS_20091010.gpx" is located here and you can open it directly in Google Earth. Connecticut is a state full of curves!

I know some other members have GIS files (as well as data from the Federal Railroad Admin) but of course I enjoyed looking at my own track up the NEC!

the link wouldn't work for me.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

A few curves and bridges with speed restrictions are

Cp216 at New Rochelle = 45 mph

CP230 (cos cob bridge 50 mph

Stateline curve at Port Chester = 45 mph

South Norwalk bridge and curve = 45 mph

Saga Bridge at Westport = 40 mph

Peck bridge at Bridgeport is 45 mph

Devon Drawbridge = 40 mph

 

[Acela150]

I agree with PRR 60 that's a big curve at Frankford JCT. that trains take at 55. It's a good place to take photos to.

Steve

 

[acelafan]

I was wondering what the worst curves on the Northeast Corridor were. I was having fund creating a little map of them. Some that come to mind are Zoo Interlocking, the South exit of the B&P. What are other ones and which ones can be smoothed and which ones have almost no hope of smoothing? (Posting a satellite map of the area is always nice.)

Neat question...I'm interested in the NEC alignment, as well. Back in October I had my GPS device record my trek from WAS to BOS on the overnight #66 so I could look at the route in Google Earth. A copy of the file "NE_Corridor_WAS_to_BOS_20091010.gpx" is located here and you can open it directly in Google Earth. Connecticut is a state full of curves!

I know some other members have GIS files (as well as data from the Federal Railroad Admin) but of course I enjoyed looking at my own track up the NEC!

the link wouldn't work for me.

Which link gave you trouble? The first link opens directly in a web browser and you can see gren's handiwork of curve locations.

For the second link, right-click it and save the file to your computer. Then start Google Earth and open the file you just saved. You'll need to install GE if you don't already have it.

 

[Steve4031]

The first one works now. But the Google earth one I am having difficulty with. I have a mac, and almost everything works with that. I enjoyed the first link. I am riding the Acela from Washington to Boston on 2/13, so this was fun to look at.

 

[afigg]

For the second link, right-click it and save the file to your computer. Then start Google Earth and open the file you just saved. You'll need to install GE if you don't already have it.

Google Earth has a useful feature for anyone who wants to see where the train tracks go. Click on the Rail display option under Points Of Interest -> Transportation under the Layers box. This turns on a black line overlay for all the train tracks and markers for the Amtrak & various commuter rail stations when you zoom in far enough. Doing this for the NEC in eastern CT, especially the Niantic River to New London to the RI border stretch, shows just how curvy that segment is. This segment is also where all the remaining grade crossings on the NEC are. I wonder if getting rid of those grade crossings along with the slow curves could be used as an arguement to drum up political support for a serous re-alignment of the ROW, or at least major pieces of the ROW, in that 20 some miles stretch.

 

[Steve4031]

For the second link, right-click it and save the file to your computer. Then start Google Earth and open the file you just saved. You'll need to install GE if you don't already have it.

Google Earth has a useful feature for anyone who wants to see where the train tracks go. Click on the Rail display option under Points Of Interest -> Transportation under the Layers box. This turns on a black line overlay for all the train tracks and markers for the Amtrak & various commuter rail stations when you zoom in far enough. Doing this for the NEC in eastern CT, especially the Niantic River to New London to the RI border stretch, shows just how curvy that segment is. This segment is also where all the remaining grade crossings on the NEC are. I wonder if getting rid of those grade crossings along with the slow curves could be used as an arguement to drum up political support for a serous re-alignment of the ROW, or at least major pieces of the ROW, in that 20 some miles stretch.

That is a lot of curves through there. I hope the GPS thing on my I phone is working. I have motion GPX maps, and this worked well on the CS in December, but not on the Acela in January. I think the catenary interferes. It could never really identify North.

 

[jis]

That is a lot of curves through there. I hope the GPS thing on my I phone is working. I have motion GPX maps, and this worked well on the CS in December, but not on the Acela in January. I think the catenary interferes. It could never really identify North.

While traveling from New York to Boston sit on the right hand side. More of the GPS sats are to the south than to the north. You will generally stand a much better chance of getting the necessary sats if you are on the south side of the train.

 

[Steve4031]

That explains that. I was actually traveling from WAS to NYP. But was on the left side/west-northwest side of the train. Thanks. I was going to sit on the right side for the water views too.

 

[acelafan]

That is a lot of curves through there. I hope the GPS thing on my I phone is working. I have motion GPX maps, and this worked well on the CS in December, but not on the Acela in January. I think the catenary interferes. It could never really identify North.

While traveling from New York to Boston sit on the right hand side. More of the GPS sats are to the south than to the north. You will generally stand a much better chance of getting the necessary sats if you are on the south side of the train.

I've also found that if you try and start your laptop/GPS shortly before your trip and lock onto a signal, it tends to find a signal faster the next time you use it (such as when you actually get on the train). It could just be coincidence, but it seems to work for me. And once the signal is locked, it tends to remain stable except for tunnels.

 

[jis]

I've also found that if you try and start your laptop/GPS shortly before your trip and lock onto a signal, it tends to find a signal faster the next time you use it (such as when you actually get on the train). It could just be coincidence, but it seems to work for me. And once the signal is locked, it tends to remain stable except for tunnels.

That is true. If you already have a fix then the GPS receiver needs to receive only the delta from the previous fix to get back on track. If you don't have a close fix it has to get much more info from the sats before it can get going. That is the nature of the system

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Another Philadelphia bottleneck is Zoo interlocking. This is where the Washington-bound NEC route veers to the south off what was the old PRR mainline. The curve to the south at this point is tight, and will likely always be that way.

However, isn't it the case that every revenue passenger train that goes through Zoo Interlocking these days stops at 30th Street Station? Do the trains accelerate/decelerate slowly enough that even if the curves in Zoo Interlocking could support 150 MPH trains, the trains would have to go through there slower because of the station stop?