Word from Aboard the Capitol Ltd

[VentureForth]

Several things about this change bother me, and most have already been presented.

First, I would have hoped that an initiative to eliminate waste - in both food loss and theft - was fully executed.

Second, Acela is quite capable of serving quality pre-plated, heated meals. There is no reason why the same method can't be employed on the LSL & CL. DC and NYP already have the infrastructure in place for Acela, however Chicago does not. Not that it would be hard to implement; they already stock the full diners for the EB, CZ, SWC, TE and the CONL.

Third, the cost should be reduced to reflect the quality of service provided.

Fourth, keeping the dining car in the consist as a 'lounge' seems extraordinarily wasteful.

Fifth, the new Viewliner dining cars will be very expensive, inefficient lounges if they are used on this route.

Sixth, I'm sympathetic but not against the loss of personnel. There is no constitutional right to a job - especially a losing job. I've been laid off. It sucks, but you pull yourself up by the bootstraps and move on.

 

[Skyline]

Several things about this change bother me, and most have already been presented.

First, I would have hoped that an initiative to eliminate waste - in both food loss and theft - was fully executed.

Second, Acela is quite capable of serving quality pre-plated, heated meals. There is no reason why the same method can't be employed on the LSL & CL. DC and NYP already have the infrastructure in place for Acela, however Chicago does not. Not that it would be hard to implement; they already stock the full diners for the EB, CZ, SWC, TE and the CONL.

Third, the cost should be reduced to reflect the quality of service provided.

Fourth, keeping the dining car in the consist as a 'lounge' seems extraordinarily wasteful.

Fifth, the new Viewliner dining cars will be very expensive, inefficient lounges if they are used on this route.

Sixth, I'm sympathetic but not against the loss of personnel. There is no constitutional right to a job - especially a losing job. I've been laid off. It sucks, but you pull yourself up by the bootstraps and move on.

I have never read details about any Amtrak initiative to reduce food waste and especially, theft. Not saying there hasn't been any, but where are the details?

Comparing meal prep for the Acelas, and long distance western trains, seems mostly apples/oranges or maybe even avocados/peaches--but if there is anything from the Acela experience that could easily and effectively be adapted for long distance trains perhaps someone with inside knowledge will enlighten us.

 

[Ryan]

Aside from the already mentioned Cap, LSL and Star, the TE and Cardinal have chefless heat and eat style food.

Everything else still have normal meals.

I thought the Eagle had a full menu, but used the CCC instead of a dining car? I could be making that up, most of the time I'm west of Chicago I'm flying, so I can't speak out of experience.

You’re correct, I was thinking of the CONO, not the Eagle.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Is there any reason why a first-class Acela passenger who is riding for just a few hours needs steak and eggs, hand-delivered to their seat, but a sleeper passenger on an overnight train should be fine with a cold breakfast?

Does the Acela fare (exorbitant, yes, but so are some sleeper fares) cover the cost of the meal?

Or is this just another example of the rich business people in the Northeast assuming that they should be treated better than everyone else?

If I had my choice of train to get rid of, it would be the Acela. Followed by the Northeast Regional between New York and Washington (I'd keep it NY to Boston and wherever it wants to go south of Washington.) There are other choices between NY and DC--Carolinian, Palmetto--the business people can take those and give them a ridership boost.

And I live in the Northeast, so this is not sour grapes. I just don't see why we get tons of choices, and a lot of the country has hardly any.

And yes, I will admit that I feel about the Acela and Regionals a bit like Philly Amtrak Fan does about the Cardinal, and I think I've digressed quite a bit from the main topic--sorry

.

 

[cpotisch]

Is there any reason why a first-class Acela passenger who is riding for just a few hours needs steak and eggs, hand-delivered to their seat, but a sleeper passenger on an overnight train should be fine with a cold breakfast?

Does the Acela fare (exorbitant, yes, but so are some sleeper fares) cover the cost of the meal?

Or is this just another example of the rich business people in the Northeast assuming that they should be treated better than everyone else?

If I had my choice of train to get rid of, it would be the Acela. Followed by the Northeast Regional between New York and Washington (I'd keep it NY to Boston and wherever it wants to go south of Washington.) There are other choices between NY and DC--Carolinian, Palmetto--the business people can take those and give them a ridership boost.

And I live in the Northeast, so this is not sour grapes. I just don't see why we get tons of choices, and a lot of the country has hardly any.

And yes, I will admit that I feel about the Acela and Regionals a bit like Philly Amtrak Fan does about the Cardinal, and I think I've digressed quite a bit from the main topic--sorry

.

While I share your sentiment, I will note that Acela First Class fares can easily exceed the cost of a roomette on the LSL or CL, so Amtrak might have more money to work with.

 

[jis]

And on Acela they just have to feed one person for that exorbitant fare, not potentially two as is the case of the Roomette too.

 

[daybeers]

Is there any reason why a first-class Acela passenger who is riding for just a few hours needs steak and eggs, hand-delivered to their seat, but a sleeper passenger on an overnight train should be fine with a cold breakfast?

Does the Acela fare (exorbitant, yes, but so are some sleeper fares) cover the cost of the meal?

Or is this just another example of the rich business people in the Northeast assuming that they should be treated better than everyone else?

If I had my choice of train to get rid of, it would be the Acela. Followed by the Northeast Regional between New York and Washington (I'd keep it NY to Boston and wherever it wants to go south of Washington.) There are other choices between NY and DC--Carolinian, Palmetto--the business people can take those and give them a ridership boost.

And I live in the Northeast, so this is not sour grapes. I just don't see why we get tons of choices, and a lot of the country has hardly any.

And yes, I will admit that I feel about the Acela and Regionals a bit like Philly Amtrak Fan does about the Cardinal, and I think I've digressed quite a bit from the main topic--sorry

.

I agree with the first part of this, but strongly disagree with the second. A lot of Amtrak's revenue comes from the NEC. It's one of the most traveled corridors in the world, and I personally think it would be great to have even more service on it. How the hell would all the riders be able to fit on the Carolinian, Palmetto, and other LD trains between NYP and WAS?

C'mon, all together now..."the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak!"

 

[jis]

If I had my choice of train to get rid of, it would be the Acela. Followed by the Northeast Regional between New York and Washington (I'd keep it NY to Boston and wherever it wants to go south of Washington.) There are other choices between NY and DC--Carolinian, Palmetto--the business people can take those and give them a ridership boost.

That would strongly suggest that you should not be taken too seriously

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Hey, I was going easy on them. At least I didn't suggest they take NJT and SEPTA and walk from Philly to Baltimore to MARC!

(And buy their own steak and eggs on the way!

)

 

[jebr]

Hey, I was going easy on them. At least I didn't suggest they take NJT and SEPTA and walk from Philly to Baltimore to MARC!

(And buy their own steak and eggs on the way!

)

Well, MARC goes all the way to Perryville, and SEPTA goes down to Newark, DE, so they'd only have to walk that far. There's even Cecil Transit local bus routes to connect the two!

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Not bad, jebr! I keep forgetting SEPTA goes into Delaware. They could get steak and eggs at a diner while they wait for the bus.

Sorry, everyone--got a bit goofy. Back to serious stuff.

Does the Acela help or hurt Amtrak's bottom line? Does it increase overall revenue? Or does it (and the NEC) bleed the long-distance train resources dry and take more for itself from them? I am still unclear about this and really seriously would like to know.

 

[jebr]

Does the Acela help or hurt Amtrak's bottom line? Does it increase overall revenue? Or does it (and the NEC) bleed the long-distance train resources dry and take more for itself from them? I am still unclear about this and really seriously would like to know.

From my understanding of the situation:

Acela and the NER are generally considered profitable "above the rails" (that is, before accounting for the cost of the infrastructure.) It doesn't cover the cost of the infrastructure/tracks that it uses, but I'm not sure if there's an exact number as the tracks are also used by numerous commuter rail agencies that may also not pay full cost for their usage of the tracks. The entire allocation of the NEC infrastructure is a contention point for a lot of agencies. But in terms of the immediate cost of running the trains, the Acela and NER do generally cover that aspect.

(The accounting gets even weirder when you're looking at comparing the NEC trains to the long distance trains; while the LD trains do pay a fee for track use that's added to the cost to run that train, my understanding is that the cost Amtrak pays is quite a bit lower than what a similar train with similar priority would pay if it was a private train not tied to Amtrak in any way.)

By the way, any train that sells a single ticket will increase overall revenue; revenue is simply how much money Amtrak takes in. It's better to look at it as either how it affects the overall subsidy (or profit) for Amtrak, the per-passenger-mile subsidy (or profit) for Amtrak, or how it affects ridership, depending on what is felt is the best way to measure Amtrak's success. (I guess one could look at overall revenue if the total dollar amount Amtrak brings in is the primary figure to aim for, but there's a lot of money that could be spent to get a few extra dollars.)

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

A very clear explanation, jebr, of something I have never quite understood. Thank you.

 

[Lonestar648]

Thanks for the explanation, Amtrak's accounting methods has got to be one of the oddest in order to get a summary.

 

[jebr]

You're welcome. It's quite possible that there's some errors in my understanding as well (it's an extremely complicated subject) so I'm open to corrections from members with more expertise on it than I have.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The problem is outside of the NEC Amtrak doesn't own the tracks so they can't have more than one LSL or one CL. So the Acela's R & R is always going to be higher. Maybe they're not profitable but their numbers are going to look better and they are at least bringing in more sales and butts in the seats. Also, the city pairs are more attractive. I don't care if you could run 20 trains a day between Rugby, ND and Shelby, MT, you'd be lucky to get anywhere near the R & R of Acela.

I'm not saying there aren't other areas that can't support 20 trains a day but why cut off one area where we can and an area where which has the population to support it?

 

[me_little_me]

Is there any reason why a first-class Acela passenger who is riding for just a few hours needs steak and eggs, hand-delivered to their seat, but a sleeper passenger on an overnight train should be fine with a cold breakfast?

Or is this just another example of the rich business people in the Northeast assuming that they should be treated better than everyone else?

Some Congress critters take Acela. I doubt you'll find many of them on LD service.

Like the rich business people, the rich critters like the amenities.

 

[Lonestar648]

If the amenities is what it takes to get the business crowd, then eliminating these cuts ridership. The first class fare on Acela is already out of reach for most, but is Amtrak pricing these seats properly. Those who work in the city and have meetings in the other city, Acela is perfect, easy on, off, get business done with minimum loss of productivity. Again, how is the pricing done and is itt correct?

I will never ride Acela first class, but there are those who will pay the fare, so Amtrak needs to make sure they are covering costs. True Amtrak is competing with the Airline shuttles, but Amtrak advantages outweigh the competition for the business executives.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I'm not saying there aren't other areas that can't support 20 trains a day but why cut off one area where we can and an area where which has the population to support it?

Because it is super SUPER expensive to maintain, it has a 40+ billion dollar backlog JUST to get it to barely close to 20th century standards (and will need a lot more to get it to 21 century standards) and the area is served by various means of transportation as well as multiple highways?

Those would be my guesses.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Is there any reason why a first-class Acela passenger who is riding for just a few hours needs steak and eggs, hand-delivered to their seat, but a sleeper passenger on an overnight train should be fine with a cold breakfast?

Does the Acela fare (exorbitant, yes, but so are some sleeper fares) cover the cost of the meal?

Or is this just another example of the rich business people in the Northeast assuming that they should be treated better than everyone else?

If I had my choice of train to get rid of, it would be the Acela. Followed by the Northeast Regional between New York and Washington (I'd keep it NY to Boston and wherever it wants to go south of Washington.) There are other choices between NY and DC--Carolinian, Palmetto--the business people can take those and give them a ridership boost.

And I live in the Northeast, so this is not sour grapes. I just don't see why we get tons of choices, and a lot of the country has hardly any.

And yes, I will admit that I feel about the Acela and Regionals a bit like Philly Amtrak Fan does about the Cardinal, and I think I've digressed quite a bit from the main topic--sorry

.

I agree with the first part of this, but strongly disagree with the second. A lot of Amtrak's revenue comes from the NEC. It's one of the most traveled corridors in the world, and I personally think it would be great to have even more service on it. How the hell would all the riders be able to fit on the Carolinian, Palmetto, and other LD trains between NYP and WAS?

C'mon, all together now..."the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak!"

While I'm not necessarily agreeing with Mystic River Dragon, I will note that trains that operate exclusively between New York and Washington are increasing rare. Indeed, Amtrak DID eliminate 2 NYP-WAS only trains and pushed people to the Palmetto. They DID reduce the size of a southbound NYP-WAS regional to push people to the Carolinian. The Pennsylvanian and Vermonter carry local travel and the southbound Star, Meteor and Crescent all carry local travel. it would be too hard to add local sections to them and cut them off during the engine change in WAS.

Additionally, more trains are venture off the south end of the NEC. If Virginia has their way, you can throw in a few more trains.

The reality of the situation is you may see very few NYP-WAS trains in the future.

 

[keelhauled]

Additionally, more trains are venture off the south end of the NEC. If Virginia has their way, you can throw in a few more trains.

The reality of the situation is you may see very few NYP-WAS trains in the future.

One would hope it would involve a plan for somehow keeping ridership intact north of WAS as more trains start consistently reaching the corridor late.

 

[VentureForth]

What's all this animosity to rich people? If they didn't exist, we'd likely have NO railroad! Yes! Pander to them! Charge them! Collect from them! Woo them! Keep them!

Ain't nobody ever get a good job from a poor person. Cut the envy!

Keep the rich happy so the poor people have a freakin' chance at riding off their subsidies!

 

[VentureForth]

I have never read details about any Amtrak initiative to reduce food waste and especially, theft. Not saying there hasn't been any, but where are the details?

A bit old, but relevant:https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/03/us/politics/amtrak-lost-834-million-on-food-in-last-decade-audit-finds.html

 

[Manny T]

There is information out there about fraud and theft in relation to the dining cars on Amtrak, like this -- a bit old now but interesting:

"Fraud, Waste, and Abuse Are Long-standing Problems

"Between March 2003 and January 2010, we identified 903 theft, dishonesty, and policy/procedure violations by 306 LSAs, and issued 447 administrative referrals to Amtrak managers.

"The recurring schemes described in this report involve the falsification of documents to conceal missing food and beverage revenues and inventories. Specifically:

"Inflating first-class meal checks. This scheme involves adding items to first-class passengers’ meal checks—meals are provided free to first-class passengers—and selling these items to other passengers for cash.

"Selling non-Amtrak items. This scheme involves smuggling non-Amtrak items on board a train and selling them to passengers.

"Shorting cash register sales. This scheme involves selling items for their retail value and ringing up smaller amounts, with LSAs pocketing the difference.

"Stealing inventory. This scheme involves directly taking dining car food (rice, oil, eggs, and potatoes) and other items—complimentary beverages, paper products, and open wine bottles.

"Providing items at no cost. This scheme involves providing customers with complimentary items and providing free drink refills without authorization."

There are recommendations in the report to reduce the abuses; whether or not implemented I don't know.

https://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/on-board_food_and_beverage_6_23_11.pdf

 

[wi-smb]

There is information out there about fraud and theft in relation to the dining cars on Amtrak, like this -- a bit old now but interesting:

"Fraud, Waste, and Abuse Are Long-standing Problems

"Between March 2003 and January 2010, we identified 903 theft, dishonesty, and policy/procedure violations by 306 LSAs, and issued 447 administrative referrals to Amtrak managers.

"The recurring schemes described in this report involve the falsification of documents to conceal missing food and beverage revenues and inventories. Specifically:

"Inflating first-class meal checks. This scheme involves adding items to first-class passengers meal checksmeals are provided free to first-class passengersand selling these items to other passengers for cash.

"Selling non-Amtrak items. This scheme involves smuggling non-Amtrak items on board a train and selling them to passengers.

"Shorting cash register sales. This scheme involves selling items for their retail value and ringing up smaller amounts, with LSAs pocketing the difference.

"Stealing inventory. This scheme involves directly taking dining car food (rice, oil, eggs, and potatoes) and other itemscomplimentary beverages, paper products, and open wine bottles.

"Providing items at no cost. This scheme involves providing customers with complimentary items and providing free drink refills without authorization."

There are recommendations in the report to reduce the abuses; whether or not implemented I don't know.

https://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/on-board_food_and_beverage_6_23_11.pdf

Yeah, those havent been implemented. I saw the doctoring of first class slips on a TE trip I took back in April.