Winter Planning for Empire Builder Trips

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Sadly you are correct. Every EB is in the red today (back to the "new normal")--looks like #8 currently still in ND will arrive in CHI around 2 AM tomorrow--ouch. I wonder if this will effect the turn around? Even #7/27 in WA/OR are running about 3 hours behind-and should arrive in SEA/PDX about 2 1/2 hours late today. Riders on the Empire Builders will just have to realize that the best they are likely to see are 2 hour delays into CHI, with occasional days where the trains are 6+ hours late, as we are seeing again today. If I was a traveler going thru CHI on #8 I would not book ANY connections that were less than 3 hours, and even that may be pushing it. As my BNSF contact said again over the weekend, they are trying as hard as possible with respect to helping the Empire Builders get thru the challenges on the Hi-Line , but just too many trains and not enough tracks--period………
 
montana mike said:
As my BNSF contact said again over the weekend, they are trying as hard as possible with respect to helping the Empire Builders get thru the challenges on the Hi-Line , but just too many trains and not enough tracks--period………
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I'm not shooting the messenger (you or your friend), but this line is crap. Someone is making a conscious decision to run those "too many trains" and as we saw over the holiday, without them the EB can get through just fine. This is a problem 100% of BNSF's making.
 
RyanS said:
montana mike said:
As my BNSF contact said again over the weekend, they are trying as hard as possible with respect to helping the Empire Builders get thru the challenges on the Hi-Line , but just too many trains and not enough tracks--period………
Click to expand...
I'm not shooting the messenger (you or your friend), but this line is crap. Someone is making a conscious decision to run those "too many trains" and as we saw over the holiday, without them the EB can get through just fine. This is a problem 100% of BNSF's making.
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Ryan has Nailed it! Amtrak needs to get this Fixed Before the Long, Cold Winter causes even More Problems! ;)
 
Unfortunately, pending the nature of the contract between Amtrak and BNSF (which we don't know), this probably isn't something that Amtrak has the ability to fix. If BNSF makes the business decision that they'll make more money running the "too many trains" and either pay a penalty or forgo bonuses for living up to their end of the bargain and dispatching Amtrak on time, that's exactly what they'll keep on doing.
 
RyanS said:
If BNSF makes the business decision that they'll make more money running the "too many trains" and either pay a penalty or forgo bonuses for living up to their end of the bargain and dispatching Amtrak on time, that's exactly what they'll keep on doing.
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not surprising. bnsf is in the freight business. add in amtrak's equipment problems, which always seem worse in the winter, and it doesn't look pretty.
 
Amtrak's choices are limited, but they could modify the EB schedule to account for this new reality. Adding a second train between MSP and CHI would help as well, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Couple problems with that.

Amtrak doesn't unilaterally set schedules, and any lengthening of the schedule will result in broken connections and the need for more equipment, since the same day turn on the west coast would go away.
 
Based on my lengthy discussions with the local BNSF people I don't think Amtrak has too many options and even if there are some hefty "penalties" built into the deal, BNSF is making so much money moving the additional freight, the Empire Builder's twice a day woes are not even getting Warren Buffett's hair on edge. This IS the new reality and I truly believe Amtrak is "stuck" in a no win situation. They don't have the ability to regularly stage extra equipment to prevent the turns in SPK due to the big delays often generated thru MT and ND, they are bound by agreements with state officials to serve certain towns and cities, which prevents possible routing around the high traffic areas and you are correct, they don't want to admit the reality of mostly broken connections in CHI, since this would indeed eliminate same day turns thru CHI from the west coast and likely decrease EB ridership.

The facts are what they are. It's nice to be able to air our opinions and observations in this great forum, but we are seeing firsthand what can and does happen on this route and will likely remain this way for a long time to come.
 
First major winter storm hitting the Hi Line over the next couple of days. Looks like #7/#8 currently in MT/ND will get through with no more than usual delays. I wouldn't be surprised to see some 4+ hour delays and Spokane turns starting tomorrow, though without any existing snowcover to create big drifts the impacts could also be fairly minimal.
 
Regarding Empire Builder delays, what is up with this showing 25 hours late then 5 hours late?

The official Amtrak Android app does say that 8 was 25 hours late on the 1st at Glasgow.

Was it something to do with the freight crew screw up?

Currently at MSP waiting to go west and see what happens. Am thankful that 8 arrived on Thanksgiving in time for dinner.
 
Oh, and when I did this trip (PDX-MSP) in 2010, we had three engines going East but there weren't enough good ones to get us up to the pass. We had freight helpers push us, and added a fourth, BNSF engine at Minot. Arrived MSP at 2 AM the next morning.

Am wanting to ask the agents here at MSP how many times they've done the buses (just hope that people find out about them and not just check train status)
 
I was on tonight's #7 from CHI to TOH. CP made us wait for nearly half an hour about 5 minutes east of CBS for their approaching freight. I remember an OBS (was either a conductor or a/c) telling me a couple years ago that most members of Amtrak crews believe CP dispatchers "over-rates" their speeds and makes the Empire Builder wait unneccessarily. This happened as we had to wait one mile outside of TOH. I couldn't help but think of that discussion again tonight and believes it rings very true yet again. We arrived into TOH one hour late tonight.
 
#8 from yesterday arrived in CHI this morning at 3:29 AM--almost 11 1/2 hours late--ouch!!! #8, currently in Western MT is almost 4 hours late already and has yet to go thru the mess in eastern MT and ND. My guess is it too will be 6-8 hours late in arriving in CHI. Tough times for the EB. :-(
 
i have asked this question before and seem to have some psychic need to ask it every so often. granted that if bnsf didn't run trains on their tracks the eb would have better otp but given that they do and that the eb has had terrible otp for most of the past couple years and that it will continue at least another year, why won't amtrak own up? there was a service notice posted for november which significantly understated the delays but now there is nothing. why won't smilin' joe or an underling post a notice on amtrak.com stating the problem. that would make me happy. just an acknowledgement of the problem. by the way, i did call amtrak customer relations a couple months ago regarding the eb delays. the rep wasn't aware of a problem but did go so far as to check arrival into chi in the couple weeks before my call. her response was along the lines of "gosh, i didn't know about that. that's really bad".
 
They probably should do what they did with the Sunset a few years ago, drastically lengthen the published schedule to reflect reality. That was when they put the Sunset's departure from LA back to mid-afternoon. When they changed the schedule last year, they were putting it back to a schedule similiar to what it was before.

For the EB, that probably means making the departure from Seattle quite a bit earlier, which in turn probably shortens the time allowed for turning, which might mean an extra trainset because it can't be turned in time. A trainset Amtrak doesn't have. They were able to do it with the Sunset because it was three times a week and the trainset was already there.

In any case, it is better to have a realistic schedule that can be met than one that can't be for whatever reason. It also would reduce some costs by reducing the misconnects.
 
Today's EB in MN is already 7 1/2 hrs late. Super slow with #7 out of SPK as well--looks like at least 4 hours behind there heading west. :-( I received a reply from Amtrak about the EB issues--just a form letter, didn't even address my question really. Very disappointed.
 
Amtrak really does need to work with BNSF to make the schedule more realistic. Currently I wouldn't recommend the EB to anyone right now. I can't imagine how many passengers with these delays will say never again and bad mouth Amtrak to their friends. Adjusting the schedule will break connections and hurt business but I would think business is being hurt already or will be in the future.
 
How much Empire Builder travel involves connections? I'm not particularly happy about the constant delays, but since my usual trip is MSP-MOT, the delays are not a deal-breaker for me. Not that I enjoy catching a 3 am train, of course.

Be that as it may, my last trip on the Empire Builder was well within specs. #7 was only half an hour late into Minot, and #8 was 2.5 hours late into Chicago, with plenty of time to catch #448. The bad part was the Lake Shore Limited, where the vacuum in the toilets in our sleeper failed just after departure, and the toilets in our car didn't work all the way to Boston. Another call to Consumer Relations...
 
Given the breakdown now in both directions lately-westbound thru western MT, ID and WA are now also experiencing delays of 2+ hours at least several times a week as well, things aren't getting better. Today's delays are partly weather related, but we aren't looking at the storm of the century here, just more "normal" conditions for the Hi-line in the winter. And Amtrak/BNSF do not adjust the timetable for the winter as we all know.

As to how many people make connections, it would be good to see that number, but I would venture a guess that the number is not insignificant. The local Amtrak agent here in WFH shared with me at the end of last summer that it was costing Amtrak a huge amount of money for hotels and transfers for people missing connections in CHI due to the EB's delays last summer. So much so that it was a lead topic of discussion at several Amtrak regional discussions.
 
7:30 AM and on the Portland section of 7(02) just leaving Spokane. No buses. The Seattle section has the Great Dome and two Horizon coaches for the Leavenworth train.
 
Ispolkom said:
How much Empire Builder travel involves connections?
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good question. our travel on the eb nearly always involves connections at either sea/pdx or chi. on our trip to atl in mid-september we got into chi at midnight and those of us with connections more than filled one bus which amtrak used to take us to our hotel. late arrivals i don't mind so much. it's the missed connections that impact out travel. on our return in september we got into spk at 10:30am instead of 1:30am which was great (not to mention running along the kootenai river in daylight)
 
Last December when I was on a 12 hour late edition of 8, most folks in my car were making connections (including me). Once we arrived in Chicago, It sure seemed like most of the passengers crowded into Passenger Services getting their revised arrangements. So solely based on what I observed, I would say coming into Chicago, a very significant number of passengers are making connections.

The situation is bad, approaching the UP induced Sunset meltdowns and Starlate issues of the past. It is a wonder the loads have held up (Williston probably helps). Considering the Builder is Amtrak's poster child LD train, they really ought to do something about it beyond breaking out the Dinty Moore.
 
jb's status map for the eb is just bizarre. 8 will be 12+ hours late into chi. 7/27 that were due in sea/pdx this morning won't get their until about their scheduled departure time this afternoon. 7 and 8 in Montana are doing their best to fall way behind. ???????
 
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