Winter Planning for Empire Builder Trips

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I have compiled a list of all the double track segments (excluding sidings) on the Hi-Line between Surrey, ND and Shelby, MT, the area that causes the most delays.

Surrey, ND-WL Switch(Gassman). 12.7 miles.

Gassman Switch,ND-Des Lacs, ND. 8 miles.

Palerno, ND-Ross, ND. 15 miles

Epping, ND- West Williston, ND. 19 miles.

Havre East, MT-Pacific Jct., MT. 6.6 miles.

East Joplin, MT-Gilford West, MT. 23 miles

Note: BNSF is working on completely double-tracking the entire 154 mile Surrey,ND to Snowden, MT segment.

Current total double track mileage Surrey-Shelby: 84.3 miles.
 
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I read on the outstate Minnesota yahoo group that even on the double track segments many freights are parked effectively making these segments single track. Probably explains why many trains have lost time between Fargo and MSP also.
 
Both #7s are doing almost exactly the same today....

7(22) is 7hrs, 3 minutes late leaving SPK.

7(23) is 7 hrs, 7 minutes late leaving GFK.

Well, at least they're consistent. :blush:
 
BNSF had estimated delays within this area is 4 hours and I have been following this for about a week and sadly they are dead on with their estimates. No major improvements in this mess until all of the track work is done after the end of the 2015 construction season.

I think it is also noteworthy to observe that the delays into PDX and SEA have progressively grown to the point that they are approaching the delays seen in Chicago.

:-(
 
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I was "fortunate" to be on 7-27 of 12/22 getting on at Essex (3:18 am 12/24). Crew explained delay at Chicago was due to bad ordered cars being switched out and finding replacements. Arriving the 7-27 overshot the platform for the front PDX coach. The ski bums getting off did not care... they bailed out into the snow, the conductor got them their skis and they looked happy.

Full train, tired but generally patient crew and passengers. KFC for everyone after Pasco. We got into VAN about 4:00 and it looks like they made a record turn as the 28 is showing out on time at 4:45 pt.
 
I am at the point now that if I wanted to connect to the southbound CS, I'd take the EB from Spokane to Seattle and stay overnight there rather than risk the same day connection in Portland. The additional money spent on a hotel room in Seattle would be worth it to me. I'm planning an EB trip to Seattle in June, spend a couple of nights there, take the EB from there to Glacier Park, spend a couple of nights there, and return to Spokane. As I'm not making connections to any other trains, I don't care how late the EB is then. :)
 
JayPea said:
I am at the point now that if I wanted to connect to the southbound CS, I'd take the EB from Spokane to Seattle and stay overnight there rather than risk the same day connection in Portland. The additional money spent on a hotel room in Seattle would be worth it to me. I'm planning an EB trip to Seattle in June, spend a couple of nights there, take the EB from there to Glacier Park, spend a couple of nights there, and return to Spokane. As I'm not making connections to any other trains, I don't care how late the EB is then. :)
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Ah, but you WOULD care if instead of being late, your EB got cancelled shortly before you're planning to travel--as happened recently, when all those late trains backed up to the point where Amtrak decided that the best way to "catch up" was to cancel trains every other day for a while.

I've got EB tix for February myself, and my nightmare scenario is a last-minute phone call, when I'm already in transit, saying my train home has been cancelled and they're not providing any alternative. I'm FINE with delays (more time on trains! yay!) but NOT fine with having to figure out lodging and transport logistics (while traveling, away from my computer) and pay $$$$ for last-minute airline tix to get home--when I've already booked that passage home with Amtrak, months in advance.

Sorry for rant. Merry Christmas! :hi: Maybe best NOT to worry about this now, and instead postpone until January.
 
Well, I live 270 miles from Seattle and 380 from Glacier. The logistics for me wouldn't be nearly so hard to figure out. Worse comes to worse I can take the Thruway bus to/from Seattle then drive to/from Glacier. The Thruway bus has a stop in my town, right outside my door. EB or no EB, I'm headed to both Seattle and Glacier. :)
 
Well, a good start and reasonably fair account, but only touches the proverbial tip of the ice berg--as all of us in this forum recognize. There is no simple solution. Why BOTH BNSF and Amtrak management didn't see the "headlights" coming at them over the past several years is a topic of discussion in itself, but suffice to say what could be an absolute gem of a ride thru some of America's most spectacular countryside has been fraught with a myriad of roadblocks for more than a year now and it will likely get worse before getting better.

I got somewhat of a chuckle out of BNSF's plans for 50 more miles of double tracking!! Gee, out of a trip of well over 1500 miles on the hi-line (most of which is single track), that's a tiny drop in the bucket-yes, a start, but not much........
 
There is a very simple solution.

Run less freight.

X number if trains can run of the line without delays. Solve for X and run that many trains a day.

Raise rates until demand matches supply.
 
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As I said before most of their contracts are locked in for YEARS for rates--eg. the coal and grain they move. These are not only negotiated between the two parties the various state regulators even get into the mess. There is NO way they could change this even if they wanted to.
 
I do believe contracts with state agencies override the agreement BNSF has with Amtrak. My local BNSF contacts say there is a good deal of language in the Amtrak contract that gives "both sides a lot of flexibility" with several pages of "exceptions" that mitigate against your position. I sent your comment to two of my local BNSF people. It will be interesting to see what/if they come back with anything specific.
 
I was surprised to see this editorial in the local paper in the first place. As it stated, many people in Spokane may not be aware of Amtrak's presence at all. Amtrak by and large gets ignored by the Spokane press. That anyone on the editorial board took notice of the EB's woes is really quite surprising.
 
montana mike said:
I do believe contracts with state agencies override the agreement BNSF has with Amtrak. My local BNSF contacts say there is a good deal of language in the Amtrak contract that gives "both sides a lot of flexibility" with several pages of "exceptions" that mitigate against your position. I sent your comment to two of my local BNSF people. It will be interesting to see what/if they come back with anything specific.
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Sounds like they need some of that flexibility in their other contracts. Promising to deliver more than they could possibly supply is pretty stupid.
 
RyanS said:
There is a very simple solution.

Run less freight.

X number if trains can run of the line without delays. Solve for X and run that many trains a day.

Raise rates until demand matches supply.
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Freights are not the problem, track capacity is.
 
If you're going to go full pedant on us, it's the fact that they're running more freights than they have capacity for.

One of these things can be fixed virtual overnight.

The other can't.
 
RyanS said:
montana mike said:
I do believe contracts with state agencies override the agreement BNSF has with Amtrak. My local BNSF contacts say there is a good deal of language in the Amtrak contract that gives "both sides a lot of flexibility" with several pages of "exceptions" that mitigate against your position. I sent your comment to two of my local BNSF people. It will be interesting to see what/if they come back with anything specific.
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Sounds like they need some of that flexibility in their other contracts. Promising to deliver more than they could possibly supply is pretty stupid.
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You're assuming that they are promising more than they can deliver. It ain't necessarily so. Grain and coal shipments usually don't mind when they arrive a day late. I wouldn't be surprised if oil trains are equally patient. The same isn't true, of course, for passenger trains or the high-priority container trains. BNSF could well be meeting its OTP performance standards for the vast majority of its customers, but not meeting it for a relatively few especially demanding customers. Sucks to be us, but I don't expect BNSF to share our priorities.
 
RyanS said:
If that's the case they can run less trains. Since Mike indicated that wasn't an option, that seemed like a logical conclusion.
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Our they can run the same number of trains and pay a few penalties, which seems to be what they are doing. I'm sure that they can figure what is optimal for them. It doesn't seem to be optimal for my needs, as a regular Empire Builder passenger, but I figure that I can take it or leave it.
 
JayPea said:
An editorial from today's Spokane Spokesman-Review:
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JayPea said:
I was surprised to see this editorial in the local paper in the first place. As it stated, many people in Spokane may not be aware of Amtrak's presence at all. Amtrak by and large gets ignored by the Spokane press. That anyone on the editorial board took notice of the EB's woes is really quite surprising.
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There were a fair amount of passengers getting on/off at Spokane on my trip last week. This editorial is showing the change from "Amtrak, whats that", to "Amtrak, great for some...", with a implied recognition that there may be demand for daylight SPK-SEA and SPK-PDX service (Mr Hamilton, your cue...). There is also a tone of "I don't use it but don't take it away", which becomes an opportunity for Amtrak to invite people to actually use the service and see the relative advantages of train travel.
 
Karl1459 said:
There were a fair amount of passengers getting on/off at Spokane on my trip last week. This editorial is showing the change from "Amtrak, whats that", to "Amtrak, great for some...", with a implied recognition that there may be demand for daylight SPK-SEA and SPK-PDX service (Mr Hamilton, your cue...).
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Okay, I'll bite. Daylight service SPK-SEA has been talked about forever, including by state staffers, but it is not explicitly included in the state rail plan that is currently being finalized. We rail advocates need to make more noise about this, and to support rail advocacy organizations at the national (NARP) and state levels (All Aboard Washington). Haven't finished your end-of-year donations? To quote Davy from another thread, get out your checkbooks!
 
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Time to revive this thread...

Looks like the EB is the only train not yet up and running after the "polar vortex" episode. Departures on 1/7 but service disruptions yesterday.

Anyone know if they will be operating today, and if the sixth trainset will stay in rotation for the rest of the winter (or even through summer construction season)?
 
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