Will freight trains obstruct Amtrak more as Amtrak speeds up?

[Long Train Runnin']

I know this may sound insane, but I believe the only way to drastically improve track conditions on most freight railroads is to nationalize all of our railroad tracks, just like China. It is precisely because of this fact that Chinese passenger trains have been able to "speed up" at least six times during the last 20 years.

China has built dedicated ROWs which are totally grade separated, and basically elevated for the entire distance. It was surreal how the tracks were perfectly straight. They had this particular line planned out to an amazing degree. To the right you could see an interstate highway being constructed that became less and less complete as you got further out in the countryside. There were 3 stations on this line that had been built, but since know one lives there right now, they see no service although out in the distance you see a couple dozen high rise buildings being put up simultaneously. There is a link to to several frequent local buses at each intermediate stop. China HSR is not only amazing in its span, but since all of these agencies are working together and they are starting from scratch they had a chance to think over seemingly every detail.

I feel like even if we nationalized every mile of track in this country the US Government would have to spend billions to do something similar. Don't buy the whole every passenger train in China is amazing pool of thought though. There are several train stations in both Beijing and Shanghai, and I made a point to go to each one. They have constructed these amazingly modern glamorous stations for HSR, but the stations that serve suburban trains, and there diesel long haul services are nothing like waiting for an Amtrak train. While they should be impressive because of there size they are a little bit grimy. Even the station where the Beijing leg of the Trans Siberian RR was departing was far from a glamorous station. Not knocking there HSR at all, but there are still some trains running in China that offer a class of service you would never see here.

EDIT: Guess I should have read the rest of the thread before posting

here is what I found the average non HSR passenger car to look like.

China has some amazing trains and stations, but they also have some pretty rough looking service.

 

[stonesfan]

Has anyone on here sampled the French rail system recently? Despite often seen as the best in the World, I can assure you outside of the impressive network of dedicated high speed rail, the rest of the network has been falling into decline with services downgraded and in some cases taken away altogether. There is a clear strategy to get people to use the new high speed services even if it means having to drive a fair distance to get to it! Its all very well having a shiny new trainset to play with and show off to the world, but to forget about your 'classic' rural services will probably backfire in the long run.

 

[jis]

Has anyone on here sampled the French rail system recently? Despite often seen as the best in the World, I can assure you outside of the impressive network of dedicated high speed rail, the rest of the network has been falling into decline with services downgraded and in some cases taken away altogether. There is a clear strategy to get people to use the new high speed services even if it means having to drive a fair distance to get to it! Its all very well having a shiny new trainset to play with and show off to the world, but to forget about your 'classic' rural services will probably backfire in the long run.

I believe it is France's publicly stated policy that the national system will only deal with high speed corridors and a select set of long distance service. Any Regional Service must be adequately funded by the Regions for them to continue in operation. Sounds familiar? And indeed even construction of high speed corridor infrastructure must be partly funded by the Regions that benefit, in order for them to see the light of the day.

I believe the Germans also have a similar public position. Germany also is much more aggressively trying to contract out Regional Service to private operators.

EU law I believe requires separation of infrastructure from operations and also requires equal access for operators to the infrastructure, which has some interesting consequences.

 

[Phil S]

Xyzzy

The U.S. government is not going to nationalize NS, CSX, BNSF, and UP. Despite the experience of World War I, or perhaps because of it, the government did not nationalize railroads during World War II. If they didn't do it then, they're not going to do it now. The uncomfortable truth: freight rail service is far more important to the U.S. economy than passenger rail service is or ever could be. It's not that way in most of Europe and certainly not in the UK.

I don't disagree. It's unlikely to happen. But do we all agree that functional LD pasenger service is impossible under the current system whereby Amtrak runs at the whim of the RR companies? If so, is there any solution OTHER than nationalizing them? Building new track would be truly insane.

As for freight service being "far more important to the US economy than passenger", that's clearly true for LD service. But it's clearly not true along the major urban corridors, and the sitiuation is changing. Inter-city passenger rail is being re-developed in many parts of the US.

And what evidence is ther that freight service is any less important in Europe or UK than in US? I'll go look up some numbers when I have a chance but I suspect they'll show that a higher proportion of freight moves by rail in, say, Germany than in the US. And what is "ever could be" based on? The airports, ATC system, and interstate highways are saturated in large parts of the US. How will people move unless by train? Not to mention that it's vastly more energy/carbon efficient than air or highway travel.

Folks - given that this is rail pax discussion group, I find it sad to see such lack of interest in a better future.

As for France, I've been there every few years since about 2000. Also Germany twice and two months in Japan. The level of service may be decreasing in some areas but it's increasing in many others. And overall it's still infinitely better than anywhere in this country. Never been in China but it's a poor country, only just beginning to enter the modern industrial age and still carrying the baggage of what was arguably the most repressive gov't in recent history. It's not a model for what this country could or should be.

 

[jis]

As for freight service being "far more important to the US economy than passenger", that's clearly true for LD service. But it's clearly not true along the major urban corridors, and the sitiuation is changing. Inter-city passenger rail is being re-developed in many parts of the US.

Rail's modal share of freight traffic in a few select countries from UIC:

Russia 66%

China 58%

Switzerland 54%

USA 42%

Germany 22%

Japan 20%

That should give some idea of how important rail freight is or not in each of those countries' economy.

 

[Paulus]

You know, it's cheaper to build a greenfield 125+ route than it is to nationalize the freights simply to run a few extra passenger trains.

 

[stonesfan]

Folks - given that this is rail pax discussion group, I find it sad to see such lack of interest in a better future.

As for France, I've been there every few years since about 2000. Also Germany twice and two months in Japan. The level of service may be decreasing in some areas but it's increasing in many others. And overall it's still infinitely better than anywhere in this country. Never been in China but it's a poor country, only just beginning to enter the modern industrial age and still carrying the baggage of what was arguably the most repressive gov't in recent history. It's not a model for what this country could or should be.

Indeed. A friend has actually emigrated to china to run his business and he tells me the absolute majority of the country is unbelievably poor and still carries the strict philosophy of the repressive days. Thus far, the wealth and this new 'middle class' are in an extreme minority.

I've always had an interest in how rail services are going to develop in the USA given that some areas are crying out for 200mph+ high speed and classic intercity type services. People are beginning to tire of flying and the attitude of the airlines. The age of the train could well be returning soon.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

here is what I found the average non HSR passenger car to look like.

China has some amazing trains and stations, but they also have some pretty rough looking service.

I did a bit more research on Chinese trains. That car is kinda weird because it has the livery of a Type 25G, used mainly on K trains, but has an open window in the center while K trains are air-conditioned. That could actually be a Type 25B or something like that which are not air-conditioned. Don't know why it's got a red stripe down the windows, though. Usually 25Bs are painted totally green.

The Type 25 series trains run at 100 to 150 kp/h, and are the main equipment in China.

That little sign under the open window tells you the origin and destination of the train. In the middle is the train number.

 

[xyzzy]

Russia 66%

China 58%

Switzerland 54%

USA 42%

Germany 22%

Japan 20%

Bingo. And in the case of Switzerland, the number is biased because of the tonnage that travels through the Alpine tunnels.

You know, it's cheaper to build a greenfield 125+ route than it is to nationalize the freights simply to run a few extra passenger trains.

An example is SEHSR. Reinstalling or rebuilding 125 miles of track between Raleigh, N.C. and Petersburg, Va. may take a billion, but compare that to the current market cap of CSX, $24 billion -- and the gov't still wouldn't have a high-speed route between the Carolinas and the NEC without spending the billion. Or, another way to look at it: owning CSX would not reduce the construction cost of the SEHSR project.

 

[Phil S]

As for freight service being "far more important to the US economy than passenger", that's clearly true for LD service. But it's clearly not true along the major urban corridors, and the sitiuation is changing. Inter-city passenger rail is being re-developed in many parts of the US.

Rail's modal share of freight traffic in a few select countries from UIC:

Russia 66%

China 58%

Switzerland 54%

USA 42%

Germany 22%

Japan 20%

That should give some idea of how important rail freight is or not in each of those countries' economy.

Thanks but what year are the data for? Looking at the UIC site, it seems like the only data available (in a book that costs $300) are for 2010. Is there a way to access the data over time and for 2011? Just look at what's happening with the Builder, which we all agree is due in some fairly large part to vastly increased freight volume. The trend in this country is for rail freight to increase as a proportion of the total, as it is everywhere in the world simply because energy efficiency is a big deal and getting bigger. The list of countries building new freight track is endless. Netherlands, essentially all of SE Asia, Canada, Pakistan, essentially all the Persian Gulf countries, China, Algeria, Morocco, and several sub-Sahel countries. That's just the ones that I remember off the top of my head.

As for $24B market cap for CSX, that's for the whole company. How much do you suppose the trackage would sell for? Maybe CSX would actually like to rid itself of track maintenance issues and focus on operations. If they wanted to, they could even turn around and bid on the contract for the maintenance. CSX and the other companies could still retain their non right-of-way land holdings. All we need is the track and associated infra-structure.

How about if the gov't bought out only the lines that are to be used for passenger rail?

Think outside the box, folks. We need pax rail service in htis country and the current system is just not working. Something has to be done so that the RR companies are forced to give the highest instead of lowest priority to pax rail. And as I said, just saying ""ït'll never happen"" seems way too pessimistic.

Phil S

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Folks - given that this is rail pax discussion group, I find it sad to see such lack of interest in a better future.

As for France, I've been there every few years since about 2000. Also Germany twice and two months in Japan. The level of service may be decreasing in some areas but it's increasing in many others. And overall it's still infinitely better than anywhere in this country. Never been in China but it's a poor country, only just beginning to enter the modern industrial age and still carrying the baggage of what was arguably the most repressive gov't in recent history. It's not a model for what this country could or should be.

Indeed. A friend has actually emigrated to china to run his business and he tells me the absolute majority of the country is unbelievably poor and still carries the strict philosophy of the repressive days. Thus far, the wealth and this new 'middle class' are in an extreme minority.

I've always had an interest in how rail services are going to develop in the USA given that some areas are crying out for 200mph+ high speed and classic intercity type services. People are beginning to tire of flying and the attitude of the airlines. The age of the train could well be returning soon.

I've also visited China once before on vacation. I was lucky enough to get an "inside look" at some of the poverty as a guest. Many people are farmers who have very dirty and dilapidated houses and have just enough to live on. So most chinese people are right on that poverty line, not a good place to live. This also causes much more small crime as some Chinese people told me, everybody wants to steal stuff to make ends meet.

As for freight service being "far more important to the US economy than passenger", that's clearly true for LD service. But it's clearly not true along the major urban corridors, and the sitiuation is changing. Inter-city passenger rail is being re-developed in many parts of the US.

Rail's modal share of freight traffic in a few select countries from UIC:

Russia 66%

China 58%

Switzerland 54%

USA 42%

Germany 22%

Japan 20%

That should give some idea of how important rail freight is or not in each of those countries' economy.

Thanks but what year are the data for? Looking at the UIC site, it seems like the only data available (in a book that costs $300) are for 2010. Is there a way to access the data over time and for 2011? Just look at what's happening with the Builder, which we all agree is due in some fairly large part to vastly increased freight volume. The trend in this country is for rail freight to increase as a proportion of the total, as it is everywhere in the world simply because energy efficiency is a big deal and getting bigger. The list of countries building new freight track is endless. Netherlands, essentially all of SE Asia, Canada, Pakistan, essentially all the Persian Gulf countries, China, Algeria, Morocco, and several sub-Sahel countries. That's just the ones that I remember off the top of my head.

As for $24B market cap for CSX, that's for the whole company. How much do you suppose the trackage would sell for? Maybe CSX would actually like to rid itself of track maintenance issues and focus on operations. If they wanted to, they could even turn around and bid on the contract for the maintenance. CSX and the other companies could still retain their non right-of-way land holdings. All we need is the track and associated infra-structure.

How about if the gov't bought out only the lines that are to be used for passenger rail?

Think outside the box, folks. We need pax rail service in htis country and the current system is just not working. Something has to be done so that the RR companies are forced to give the highest instead of lowest priority to pax rail. And as I said, just saying ""ït'll never happen"" seems way too pessimistic.

Phil S

Here's my take on this: Even though the US might have higher rail share of freight by now, Russia and China still have tons of freight trains. My take is that while the US won't give up on the car and/or plane anytime soon unless something drastic happens, it dosen't mean passenger trains will have to stay a stepchild. Pax trains can be very popular as well and much expanded from the current network alongside cars, planes, and buses. It does not have to be HSTs to do this, speed improvements to 90 mph should put passenger trains at the same speed as cars and higher qould put them a step above. This could take more and more cars off the road, relieving some congestion, but the roads will still have lots of cars and a bit of buses. Planes are harder to take on but convienient evening-to-morning service could get tons of ridership, maybe even making a profit.

That's just my opinion about the situation.