Wifi: What's the holdup?

[eee]

http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/a...s_choice_1.html

I was just reading this Information Week article about wifi on Amtrak and it got me thinking, what's the holdup?

Can't Amtrak take on a little more debt, install wifi on all trains with the understanding that their bottom line would greatly benefit?

Either offer it free, which would definitely pay for itself in ridership increases. Or charge $9.99 for a 24-hour period, which would also bring in huge revenues. Thousands of people a day x $9.99/day=a whole lot of money.

Amtrak already has some onboard wifi for credit card processing, right? How difficult would it be to expand it?

Buses are offering it. Planes will soon be offering it. If Amtrak doesn't act soon it's just another competitive disadvantage.

 

[transit54]

Buses are offering it. Planes will soon be offering it. If Amtrak doesn't act soon it's just another competitive disadvantage.

Not to mention that Via Rail has offered it for years. Used it about two years ago on a trip from Toronto to Montreal. Cost me about $6.

 

[RRrich]

We enjoyed our recent trip to NOL from STL via CHI - but with Wifi, it would have been even better!

 

[WICT106]

As with everything else related to Amtrak, it is the funding. With Amtrak, this would become yet another thing that would be broken more times than not, like the TV VCR movies of some years ago. IMO, the fewer gadgits and gismos to break, the better.

 

[TraneMan]

I won't want that service, I am on vacation, and I want to leave all that stuff behind... (I'm leaving my cell at home) and just enjoy the vacation, and get a chance to meet someone new on the train.

I feel that if we have Wifi on the train, everyone will be glued to the net, and not out making friends.

 

[transit54]

I won't want that service, I am on vacation, and I want to leave all that stuff behind... (I'm leaving my cell at home) and just enjoy the vacation, and get a chance to meet someone new on the train.
I feel that if we have Wifi on the train, everyone will be glued to the net, and not out making friends.

Well, I don't think it was really under proposal for LD trains, only corridor ones. VIA only has it Toronto-Montreal, but nowhere else. It really requires the train to be in relatively constant contact with cell towers that support high speed data service, which isn't the case on portions of many LD routes. I personally think it would be fantastic for corridor services - I take Amtrak LD to enjoy myself, but I take Amtrak trains on corridors partly because they allow me to be very productive enroute to wherever I'm going.

Also remember that business travelers are a huge source of revenue, and especially with rising airline ticket prices, if you can convince a company that the train offers a more productive option than the plane, the economics might just make sense along a corridor route.

 

[the_traveler]

I agree that wifi would be feasible along a corridor route that has coverage and business travelers. On 5/10, on one of my NTD trips, I traveled from NHV to KIN on the NEC. A guy behind me was on his cell much of the time. In only one spot did he lose the call. (IIRC, I also lost service in about the same area)

I think that wifi would work well in a corridor service (like the NEC), but not work in an area such as the NV or AZ deserts or ND plains!

 

[haolerider]

I agree that wifi would be feasible along a corridor route that has coverage and business travelers. On 5/10, on one of my NTD trips, I traveled from NHV to KIN on the NEC. A guy behind me was on his cell much of the time. In only one spot did he lose the call. (IIRC, I also lost service in about the same area)
I think that wifi would work well in a corridor service (like the NEC), but not work in an area such as the NV or AZ deserts or ND plains!

A good wireless air card will work on almost all of the NEC and I am using a Verizon card right now on a long distance train. Good coverage along most routes - unless you are in the country where you generally can't get cell phone coverage anyway. I have used the card on the Crescent, City, Cardinal, Texas Eagle, Capitol Limited, Auto Train and all along the NEC. I don't see the need for WiFi at the moment unless Amtrak can make substantial revenue from the service.

 

[AlanB]

I agree that wifi would be feasible along a corridor route that has coverage and business travelers. On 5/10, on one of my NTD trips, I traveled from NHV to KIN on the NEC. A guy behind me was on his cell much of the time. In only one spot did he lose the call. (IIRC, I also lost service in about the same area)
I think that wifi would work well in a corridor service (like the NEC), but not work in an area such as the NV or AZ deserts or ND plains!

A good wireless air card will work on almost all of the NEC and I am using a Verizon card right now on a long distance train. Good coverage along most routes - unless you are in the country where you generally can't get cell phone coverage anyway. I have used the card on the Crescent, City, Cardinal, Texas Eagle, Capitol Limited, Auto Train and all along the NEC. I don't see the need for WiFi at the moment unless Amtrak can make substantial revenue from the service.

I've done pretty well with my cell phone acting as a modem for my laptop on the corridor, the Capitol, the LSL, the SW Chief, and the Starlight. My worst performance was on the EB, there I had long periods where I couldn't get on at all.

 

[printman2000]

The biggest problem with your own cell cards is the cost. I think the cheapest plan I could get is $60 a month just for data. I don't need except when I am on a train so I can not justify that cost. If I could pay $10 on board then that would be awesome.

I don't want to have to have access when I am on vacation, but some jobs really need it, even when away.

 

[RRrich]

Wifey and I are both retired, we do not use our computers for work but when we rode the CONO from NOL to CHI, when we got to CHI we went to the Metro lounge and burnt up the Wifi connections because we could not get on line on the train.

We commented to each other that our biggest gripe with Amtrak was that we couldn't get on line.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Wifey and I are both retired, we do not use our computers for work but when we rode the CONO from NOL to CHI, when we got to CHI we went to the Metro lounge and burnt up the Wifi connections because we could not get on line on the train.
We commented to each other that our biggest gripe with Amtrak was that we couldn't get on line.

The article mentioned above said that Amtrak has wifi available at many stations in the NEC, & this post mentions Chicago (which is not mentioned on Amtrak's site). Is wifi available at any other stations?

 

[chuljin]

Wifey and I are both retired, we do not use our computers for work but when we rode the CONO from NOL to CHI, when we got to CHI we went to the Metro lounge and burnt up the Wifi connections because we could not get on line on the train.
We commented to each other that our biggest gripe with Amtrak was that we couldn't get on line.

The article mentioned above said that Amtrak has wifi available at many stations in the NEC, & this post mentions Chicago (which is not mentioned on Amtrak's site). Is wifi available at any other stations?

I've used two, but neither provided by Amtrak themselves:

• SAN, which seems to be provided by the station;
  
• FUL, which is part of the wider Fullerton Wireless project (note that this has a captive portal, but is free...i.e. just accept the terms and you're unlocked).
  

 

[Walt]

Yea, I think Sprint supplies WiFi at the ClubAcela in NY Penn.

 

[Walt]

With Amtrak, this would become yet another thing that would be broken more times than not, like the TV VCR movies of some years ago. IMO, the fewer gadgits and gismos to break, the better.

Good point. Who, on the train, would be qualified to maintain the network, and help passengers who are having trouble.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Most hotels and motels, even Motel 6 are offering WIFI, many times with no charge. Traveling via sleeping car is very similar to staying in a hotel so WIFI should be available. No one is forced to log in if they don't want or need to. In most of the very remote areas where the scenary is the best, WIFI doesn't work. WIFI is part of everyday life in the 21st century so Amtrak needs to offer it stay competitive.

 

[printman2000]

Who, on the train, would be qualified to maintain the network, and help passengers who are having trouble.

Physically maintaining would have to be done by emplyees not on board. Technical support could be a phone number.

 

[Walt]

... so Amtrak needs to offer it stay competitive.

Interesting point, though I have to add, competitive with who?

How many airlines offer WiFi onboard aircraft today?

 

[RTOlson]

^^

Many buses I've been on don't seem to have WiFi either.

I'm guessing the argument is that when car passengers stop, they can easily stop at a hotel (or even a restaurant/rest stop) offering high-speed Internet. As much as I'm getting to like trains, the hotels have a leg-up on trains for WiFi -- they're in a fixed location.

Even with the advances in technology, it still seems like a pretty big feat to offer advanced telecommunications services to moving vehicles. Cell technology is close, but there are still wide gaps. I think WiMax or satellite will be able to get the job done, but I don't even want to think about the cost.

I think when we see WiFi on trains, it will be modifications of WiFi being developed for planes. It would probably be easier to solve the problem for planes and successfully roll it out on a large fleet of aircraft before adapting it for rail service.

Technical support would probably be an issue for nearly any type of WiFi service. Do you think the hotel clerks know how to configure your laptop to work properly (although I'm sure some do)? I think it might be easier to ask for a random tech-savvy stranger's help on a train than nearly anywhere else.

 

[Walt]

Technical support would probably be an issue for nearly any type of WiFi service. Do you think the hotel clerks know how to configure your laptop to work properly (although I'm sure some do)? I think it might be easier to ask for a random tech-savvy stranger's help on a train than nearly anywhere else.

At least at a hotel, they can call their network support person, and within an hour or so, the network would be running again (just press the reset button?). On a moving train, I don't think such support is possible.

And if it can't be fixed "real time", then based on Amtrak's record, it never gets fixed. Just think of the coffee makers on the sleepers.

I can just hear the PA system announcement now "Is there a doctor of computer networking on the train?"

 

[RRrich]

While trolling over the net at the Metro Club in CHI a stranger asked me for advice - exactly as RTOlsen said. The nice Amtrak ladies there could help folks with Amtrak problems/questions but they were much less useful with wifi.

 

[Hamhock]

According to DowneastRiders, looks like things are nearly in place for one route, at least:

Finally, Wi-Fi should be up and running in all cars by June 1st. Each Sprint unit, attached to a window in each car, can handle 16 users simultaneously which means 80 riders can be on the Internet as they merrily ride the rails to Boston and return home. NNEPRA is providing this server FREE to Downeaster riders.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I think when we see WiFi on trains, it will be modifications of WiFi being developed for planes. It would probably be easier to solve the problem for planes and successfully roll it out on a large fleet of aircraft before adapting it for rail service.

Planes and trains involve some different problems, though.

One of the neat things about radio signals going between the ground and an airplane is that you can put the ground station almost anywhere, and it will have line of sight to all airplanes at cruising altitude within a few tens of miles. It's not quite that easy with trains.

On the other hand, you could probably install 802.11 base stations next to the tracks at frequent intervals and if it weren't for the metal sides of the coaches, you could possibly offer services to train riders without any hardware in the trains at all. (Whether it's cost effective to install several base stations per mile for 450 miles of NEC is another problem with that scheme, though.)

One other thing to note is that Amtrak owns some fiber optic cable along a good chuck of the NEC right of way. In those areas, if they wanted to install their own network, they probably could splice into existing strands of fiber that are already in the ground wherever they wanted to put a base station.

 

[printman2000]

I think when we see WiFi on trains, it will be modifications of WiFi being developed for planes. It would probably be easier to solve the problem for planes and successfully roll it out on a large fleet of aircraft before adapting it for rail service.

Planes and trains involve some different problems, though.

One of the neat things about radio signals going between the ground and an airplane is that you can put the ground station almost anywhere, and it will have line of sight to all airplanes at cruising altitude within a few tens of miles. It's not quite that easy with trains.

On the other hand, you could probably install 802.11 base stations next to the tracks at frequent intervals and if it weren't for the metal sides of the coaches, you could possibly offer services to train riders without any hardware in the trains at all. (Whether it's cost effective to install several base stations per mile for 450 miles of NEC is another problem with that scheme, though.)

One other thing to note is that Amtrak owns some fiber optic cable along a good chuck of the NEC right of way. In those areas, if they wanted to install their own network, they probably could splice into existing strands of fiber that are already in the ground wherever they wanted to put a base station.

The problem with that is users would constantly be disconnected when out of range and would have to reconnect to the next access point. Perhaps there is some technology out there that would make a laptop see them all as one unit, but I don't know.

 

[Walt]

One of the neat things about radio signals going between the ground and an airplane is that you can put the ground station almost anywhere, and it will have line of sight to all airplanes at cruising altitude within a few tens of miles. It's not quite that easy with trains.

I am certainly not an expert, but I thought for airplanes, the signals went "up" to satellites?

If true, I would assume that for the right fee, Amtrak could use those same satellites.