Why is there still No Sunset Limited connection to Fl?

[dlagrua]

This was repoorted on the NARP website:

During the August hurricane season of 2005, Katrina pounded buildings and structures all along the Gulf Coast. The tracks on which this important passenger service operated were severely damaged.This route segment—which completes the busy I-10 corridor—connects the eight southernmost states that, together, have one of every three Americans and account for half the nation’s population growth since 1970

Today, the tracks, signals, and bridges have long since been repaired, and freight trains are currently operating along the entire route. However, Amtrak’s Sunset Limited train service has yet to resume east of New Orleans.

Now if the states that the SL run through account for 1/3 of the population and the tracks are now active and working for freight lines, then why hasn't the line been restarted? Probably because Amtrak lacks sufficient equipment to make it happen or has no confidence that there would be sufficient passenger traffic to support the Orlando to New Orleans segmnt.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That line has been running for 4 years now. The obstacles to it running are cost, and, more accurately, politics. Should they be doing that? Matter of opinion I won't get into.

Fact: I'm tired of Sunset Limited to Florida threads. We all know each others positions on the subject, and all the possible schedules, and what trains could run where, and all that stuff. Lets nip this one in the bud unless someone has something original... or at least mildly interesting to add to what we already have been over.

We've been over this, ad absurdum, ad abundantiam, ad astra, ad infinitum, ad mortem, ad undus, and certainly ad nauseam. And never ad victoriam. Dyaenu!

 

[amtrakwolverine]

how is it cost and politics. Amtrak had no problem running it before the hurricane. if Amtrak had re-started service right after the line was open there would not have been and problems with cost equipment. its nothing but pure horse-****.

 

[SunsetLimited01]

To add another thing if the Route was running to Florida after the hurricane, then none of these Sunset East or Sunset to Florida threads wouldn't have existed in the first place. What really gets me is the idea Amtrak might do the samething to another route in the future.

 

[GG-1]

To add another thing if the Route was running to Florida after the hurricane, then none of these Sunset East or Sunset to Florida threads wouldn't have existed in the first place. What really gets me is the idea Amtrak might do the samething to another route in the future.

Actually in the past the did this to the Desert Wind. the Pioneer. and the Broadway Limited, well used train dropped for unclear reasons, only thing Different for the SSL to Florida, Amtrak has not given the 180 day notice.

 

[Ryan]

Fact: I'm tired of Sunset Limited to Florida threads. We all know each others positions on the subject, and all the possible schedules, and what trains could run where, and all that stuff. Lets nip this one in the bud unless someone has something original... or at least mildly interesting to add to what we already have been over.

Concur. I suggest reading any/all of these threads.

 

[SunsetLimited01]

Oh yeah I forgot about those three routes.

 

[dlagrua]

Yes the subject of the Sunset Limited Fl connection has certainly been beat to death here, but it still seems a priority as its featured on the NARP website.

We are not going to solve the reconnection problem here but it just seems that service restoration would be so simple as to just continue running the trains East when they arrive at New Orleans. It does not seem like much new work or equipment is needed. When you no longer run train service to Florida's capitol city and five states no longer have LD trains, I would think that its cause for concern. Its probably a political bureaucracy thing.

 

[saxman]

IMO, Amtrak has made it clear they have no interest in running it. The only reason they came out with the Sunset East study was because Congress made them. Even though they pretty much get free money from the government to run their trains they also want states now to pay too, even for long distance service, or so it seems.

Not to be negative or anything...

 

[delvyrails]

IMO, Amtrak has made it clear they have no interest in running it. The only reason they came out with the Sunset East study was because Congress made them. Even though they pretty much get free money from the government to run their trains they also want states now to pay too, even for long distance service, or so it seems.
Not to be negative or anything...

It should be clear that Amtrak has little interest in reviving the Florida extension of the Sunset Limited. This enterprise probably was a mistake. It sounded good on paper: a tourist train to connect Disneyland with River Walk, Vieux Carre, and Disney World. Probably it was popular with the tourist industry which has supported Amtrak in the past.

As a ground transport alternative for general travel, it was not a strong contender. Florida travel is associated with the Southeast, Northeast, and Midwest, but less so with the West. The necessary rail routing is long between New Orleans and Orlando: 770 miles and 17:50 versus 641 miles and 11 hours by road.

The market between New Orleans and Mobile may be strong; and it may even be desirable to run a train via Flomaton Junction that heads northeast from there toward Montgomery, Atlanta and beyond. But to turn east at Flomaton again is a weak case for the limited amount of cash (if any) that Amtrak will have for National System development. Look elsewhere for routes of stronger potential.

 

[jis]

To add another thing if the Route was running to Florida after the hurricane, then none of these Sunset East or Sunset to Florida threads wouldn't have existed in the first place. What really gets me is the idea Amtrak might do the samething to another route in the future.

Actually in the past the did this to the Desert Wind. the Pioneer. and the Broadway Limited, well used train dropped for unclear reasons, only thing Different for the SSL to Florida, Amtrak has not given the 180 day notice.

And before that the Inter-American, the Lone Star and the National Limited were discontinued too. But those, like the discontinuance of the Pioneer, the Desert Wind and the Broadway Limited were due to specific Congressional and Presidential budgetary action, and not a stealth operation like the SSL East. I am sure if Congress and the President asks Amtrak to come up with another list of trains to cut they will be legally required to do so again and follow through with the cuts if Congress says so.

Seems to me like people have forgotten the history of the 1994-97 massacre that was brought upon Amtrak by the Congress and the then popular Democrat President Clinton. Just to jog your memories here is an article from back then. If after reading it you still believe that Amtrak dropped a few trains for unclear reasons, unless of course a budget reduction of 25% appears to be quite unclear Here is another sample article.

In short there is absolutely nothing similar between what Amtrak did to SSL East and what transpired in 1994-7 leading to the demise of the Pioneer, the Desert Wind and the Broadway Limited. Indeed for a few heart stopping moments there was consideration given at one point to discontinue all New York - Chicago service back then.

Anyway, here is a not particularly skewed in any direction history of Amtrak and its trials and travails.

 

[zephyr17]

To add another thing if the Route was running to Florida after the hurricane, then none of these Sunset East or Sunset to Florida threads wouldn't have existed in the first place. What really gets me is the idea Amtrak might do the samething to another route in the future.

Actually in the past the did this to the Desert Wind. the Pioneer. and the Broadway Limited, well used train dropped for unclear reasons, only thing Different for the SSL to Florida, Amtrak has not given the 180 day notice.

And before that the Inter-American, the Lone Star and the National Limited were discontinued too. But those, like the discontinuance of the Pioneer, the Desert Wind and the Broadway Limited were due to specific Congressional and Presidential budgetary action, and not a stealth operation like the SSL East. I am sure if Congress and the President asks Amtrak to come up with another list of trains to cut they will be legally required to do so again and follow through with the cuts if Congress says so.

Seems to me like people have forgotten the history of the 1994-97 massacre that was brought upon Amtrak by the Congress and the then popular Democrat President Clinton. Just to jog your memories here is an article from back then. If after reading it you still believe that Amtrak dropped a few trains for unclear reasons, unless of course a budget reduction of 25% appears to be quite unclear Here is another sample article.

In short there is absolutely nothing similar between what Amtrak did to SSL East and what transpired in 1994-7 leading to the demise of the Pioneer, the Desert Wind and the Broadway Limited. Indeed for a few heart stopping moments there was consideration given at one point to discontinue all New York - Chicago service back then.

Anyway, here is a not particularly skewed in any direction history of Amtrak and its trials and travails.

And all those train were officially discontinued, with the required 180 day notices posted. The Sunset was never discontinued, and still shows in the timetable with the full route to Orlando with a "suspended" notice.

The whole thing is underhanded. If Amtrak has no intention of reviving the train, which given the fact that they had to have a study and ask for a handout to "unsuspend" it, they need to bite the political bullet and post the 180 notice.

 

[AlanB]

IMO, Amtrak has made it clear they have no interest in running it. The only reason they came out with the Sunset East study was because Congress made them. Even though they pretty much get free money from the government to run their trains they also want states now to pay too, even for long distance service, or so it seems.
Not to be negative or anything...

It should be clear that Amtrak has little interest in reviving the Florida extension of the Sunset Limited. This enterprise probably was a mistake. It sounded good on paper: a tourist train to connect Disneyland with River Walk, Vieux Carre, and Disney World. Probably it was popular with the tourist industry which has supported Amtrak in the past.

As a ground transport alternative for general travel, it was not a strong contender. Florida travel is associated with the Southeast, Northeast, and Midwest, but less so with the West. The necessary rail routing is long between New Orleans and Orlando: 770 miles and 17:50 versus 641 miles and 11 hours by road.

The market between New Orleans and Mobile may be strong; and it may even be desirable to run a train via Flomaton Junction that heads northeast from there toward Montgomery, Atlanta and beyond. But to turn east at Flomaton again is a weak case for the limited amount of cash (if any) that Amtrak will have for National System development. Look elsewhere for routes of stronger potential.

Fully 1/3 of the Sunset's ridership or 30,000 riders pre-Katrina rode the Sunset east of New Orleans. Revenue went from $11.1 Million to $6.9 Million.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

To add another thing if the Route was running to Florida after the hurricane, then none of these Sunset East or Sunset to Florida threads wouldn't have existed in the first place. What really gets me is the idea Amtrak might do the samething to another route in the future.

Actually in the past the did this to the Desert Wind. the Pioneer. and the Broadway Limited, well used train dropped for unclear reasons, only thing Different for the SSL to Florida, Amtrak has not given the 180 day notice.

The Broadway Limited was cancelled for a variety of reasons, primarily funding and lack of equipment. Amtrak has been in a Heritage crisis for years, and the equipment needed to run two daily New York-Chicago trains simply wasn't there. Nor, to be fair, was the ridership. Consolidating ridership to the Lake Shore Limited made sense, especially as most of the Broadway's route remained covered by the Pennsy and Capitol Limited.

And with Amtrak being given major funding cuts, Warrington made the only intelligent decision of his career: cutting the Desert Wind and Pioneer (relatively under-performing) to provide for daily service on the heretofore tri-weekly California Zephyr and Empire Builder.

Daily service on those trains brought ridership that allowed for them to survive. Had they kept all 4 of the trains, I'd be surprised if anything but the Southwest Chief was still running west of Chicago.

What some of you fail to understand, it is not a Sunset or no Sunset in a bubble somewhere. Its more like This or That. A Sunset or a daily Texas Eagle. That is the reality. Amtrak is supposed to be run as a business. If their personal incremental analysis says that running the Texas Eagle to LA daily makes more sense than a tri-weekly Orlando-Los Angeles train, they are obligated to run the former. It is that simple.

Now, to quote my friend David Peter Alan, "We need to stop treating transit like a business and highways like a public giveaway program!" I agree. But that isn't how they are treated, and Amtrak does what they are supposed to do, which is run a business. If you want it to stop, start telling congress to fund transit to the level that they fund our highways!

 

[zephyr17]

To add another thing if the Route was running to Florida after the hurricane, then none of these Sunset East or Sunset to Florida threads wouldn't have existed in the first place. What really gets me is the idea Amtrak might do the samething to another route in the future.

Actually in the past the did this to the Desert Wind. the Pioneer. and the Broadway Limited, well used train dropped for unclear reasons, only thing Different for the SSL to Florida, Amtrak has not given the 180 day notice.

The Broadway Limited was cancelled for a variety of reasons, primarily funding and lack of equipment. Amtrak has been in a Heritage crisis for years, and the equipment needed to run two daily New York-Chicago trains simply wasn't there. Nor, to be fair, was the ridership. Consolidating ridership to the Lake Shore Limited made sense, especially as most of the Broadway's route remained covered by the Pennsy and Capitol Limited.

And with Amtrak being given major funding cuts, Warrington made the only intelligent decision of his career: cutting the Desert Wind and Pioneer (relatively under-performing) to provide for daily service on the heretofore tri-weekly California Zephyr and Empire Builder.

Daily service on those trains brought ridership that allowed for them to survive. Had they kept all 4 of the trains, I'd be surprised if anything but the Southwest Chief was still running west of Chicago.

What some of you fail to understand, it is not a Sunset or no Sunset in a bubble somewhere. Its more like This or That. A Sunset or a daily Texas Eagle. That is the reality. Amtrak is supposed to be run as a business. If their personal incremental analysis says that running the Texas Eagle to LA daily makes more sense than a tri-weekly Orlando-Los Angeles train, they are obligated to run the former. It is that simple.

Now, to quote my friend David Peter Alan, "We need to stop treating transit like a business and highways like a public giveaway program!" I agree. But that isn't how they are treated, and Amtrak does what they are supposed to do, which is run a business. If you want it to stop, start telling congress to fund transit to the level that they fund our highways!

Then let them file the required 180 day discontinuance notice and take the heat for it.

The Desert Wind, Pioneer, and CZ were ALL daily before the infamously stupid Mercer cuts, which were on Downs's watch, IIRC. If those stupid cuts had never occurred, we'd probably still have all 4.

 

[saxman]

Now, to quote my friend David Peter Alan, "We need to stop treating transit like a business and highways like a public giveaway program!" I agree. But that isn't how they are treated, and Amtrak does what they are supposed to do, which is run a business. If you want it to stop, start telling congress to fund transit to the level that they fund our highways!

Amen!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Desert Wind, Pioneer, and CZ were ALL daily before the infamously stupid Mercer cuts, which were on Downs's watch, IIRC. If those stupid cuts had never occurred, we'd probably still have all 4.

I'm not discussing the Sunset, so stop leading me into it.

If the stupid cuts hadn't happened, all four trains would be running. If my aunt had wheels, she'd be a teacart.

But my aunt ain't a teacart. And Congress cut Amtrak's budget. Running a business isn't about running as many different operations as possible. It is about producing as much utility as you can manage from what resources you have. Amtrak's decision to Gambit the Desert Wind and Pioneer to save the California Zephyr and Empire Builder are an example of unfortunate but intelligent resource management.

If Amtrak can't prove its worth, which is in the form of a) farebox recovery percentage and b) ridership (both of which are at record highs the past few years), Amtrak will die. Just like Caltrain will probably die. I'm sorry we lost those two trains. I miss the Broadway Limited even more. But I'm glad I can hop on a train and travel to over 500 destinations nationwide in the comfort and spartan luxury of an extant Amtrak.

And if you people would go to the trouble of mobilizing yourself, banging on drums and pans and sending letters to your elected officials, we might actually get somewhere with increased funding! I dream of the day Congress will run Amtrak on the same sunk-cost philosphy that governs the Interstates, the Big Dig, and other highway boondoggles.

 

[henryj]

Fully 1/3 of the Sunset's ridership or 30,000 riders pre-Katrina rode the Sunset east of New Orleans. Revenue went from $11.1 Million to $6.9 Million.

Alan do you have the boardings by city for the Sunset east of New Orleans for the years before katrina? I have never been able to find that anywhere. Thanks.

John

 

[AlanB]

Fully 1/3 of the Sunset's ridership or 30,000 riders pre-Katrina rode the Sunset east of New Orleans. Revenue went from $11.1 Million to $6.9 Million.

Alan do you have the boardings by city for the Sunset east of New Orleans for the years before katrina? I have never been able to find that anywhere. Thanks.

John

John,

Alas, no I don't have them. Wish I did, but Amtrak didn't start releasing the state reports publicly on their website until 2007. Many years ago, perhaps a year or two after Katrina hit, there was a story that had been published that showed some (but not all) of those numbers. But that story has since disapeared from the archives of that paper. Not to mention that I don't even remember what paper now. I had it book marked, but when I went back to it around the time the Eagle/Sunset plan started being talked about it, the story was gone and I deleted the link.

 

[BlakeTyner]

Would one be able to file a FOIA request for a paper copy of the numbers? I think you'd have to pay for postage and copying fees, but for someone really serious about writing elected officials and/or opinion pieces in newspapers and magazines, that data would help build a strong case for at least seriously examining the Sunset east. Just a thought.

 

[Guest]

Amtrak is NOT a business. Amtrak is a government program, a hand out.

Amtrak is extremely foolish to screw the fastest growing state and second largest state Texas out

of a LD train. Same for the 4th largest state, Florida, and the southern states between.

That is a lot of support to lose being that Amtrak needs the hand outs.

 

[jis]

And if you people would go to the trouble of mobilizing yourself, banging on drums and pans and sending letters to your elected officials, we might actually get somewhere with increased funding! I dream of the day Congress will run Amtrak on the same sunk-cost philosphy that governs the Interstates, the Big Dig, and other highway boondoggles.

Assuming that people here are actually serious enough willing to write their Congresspersons and Senators expressing their support for passenger rail in general and Amtrak in particular, specifically focusing on the LD aspect of Amtrak even, here are some ways to get in touch with them.

For US Congress Members here is a website that tells you exactly how to find your rep and then write to him/her. You will be taken more seriously if your residence is in the rep's constituency. Keep the message brief and to the point. Mention specific things that the Rep needs to do, like vote for a particular bill. A general message that just bitches about stuff without giving any concrete course of action is usually of little use.

Anyway, here is the website again.

To write to your Senator(s) go to this page, find your Senator on it and then click on the pointer to his/her web page where you will find instructions on how to get in touch with him/her.

Remember any and all concise message to Senators and Congresspeople help the cause.

 

[dlagrua]

Amtrak is NOT a business. Amtrak is a government program, a hand out.Amtrak is extremely foolish to screw the fastest growing state and second largest state Texas out

of a LD train. Same for the 4th largest state, Florida, and the southern states between.

That is a lot of support to lose being that Amtrak needs the hand outs.

Amtrak is a government owned business and far from a hand out. We spend a thousand or more each year on rail trips. No one is handing us anything. If you site that Amtral loses money, then consider all of the income tax money that the federal government confiscates from the paychecks of thousands of their emloyees and the taxes on the tickets. Its funny but these numbers never show up on the balance sheet.

 

[mercedeslove]

By now you know why the SL no longer runs to Florida.

I wish they would bring it back then I could actually take a Amtrak trip around the country. From FL, to NY, to CHI CHI to SEA. SEA to LAX, LAX back to FL prolly ORL.

Did the SL go to Lakeland?

 

[AlanB]

Did the SL go to Lakeland?

No, the Sunset never ran to Lakeland. At one time it did run to Miami, but just like the Silver Meteor, it turned back southeast before Lakeland. In its later years, the Sunset ran only to Orlando.