Who to compete against?

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MattW

Conductor
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
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East of Atlanta, GA
It seems every time someone begins talking about trains, someone else instantly rejects the idea and yammers on and on about air planes being faster, better etc. For about longer than 300-400 miles and with our current service, I'll grant, planes are faster and will be until we get 500mph trains. But should airlines be the benchmark for train service? Or should cars?
 
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Good post Matt! Planes have their place when you positively,absolutely have to get their today/tomorrow but other than that unless you are crossing the pond no real reason to subject yourself to the indignity of so called "airports"! ;)
 
Great topic idea!

A few weeks ago I was visiting my fiancee in the Boston Area. We were talking about price of travel. The first words out of my mouth were $124 in coach round trip if you get the reduced fare on the NE Regionals, and on SW Airlines it's 136 something on second bucket. Which most of the time from PHL to PVD or BOS it will be that second bucket which is something like $60. Give or take $10. I then proceeded to mention that all flights have fees now. The 9/11 security fee, checked bags, overhead racks, etc. On Amtrak there are NO booking fees, checked bag fees (three bags free), free carry-on's, and NO security fees! I believe the airlines charge tax also. Amtrak doesn't charge taxes.

Steve
 
Great topic idea!

A few weeks ago I was visiting my fiancee in the Boston Area. We were talking about price of travel. The first words out of my mouth were $124 in coach round trip if you get the reduced fare on the NE Regionals, and on SW Airlines it's 136 something on second bucket. Which most of the time from PHL to PVD or BOS it will be that second bucket which is something like $60. Give or take $10. I then proceeded to mention that all flights have fees now. The 9/11 security fee, checked bags, overhead racks, etc. On Amtrak there are NO booking fees, checked bag fees (three bags free), free carry-on's, and NO security fees! I believe the airlines charge tax also. Amtrak doesn't charge taxes.

Steve
Before we went on our first trip, I wasn't sure about if Amtrak charged taxes, so I called. They said it's added into the rail fare.

But I would much rather ride the train!!
 
There was an excellent article about TGV in France on Trains magazine. Trains compete with airlines over short haul market.

You'll have to be at the airport about an hour before check-in due to security checkpoint line. Most airports are quite away from the cities while the train stations are usually located in downtown areas with excellent public transportation.
 
...Before we went on our first trip, I wasn't sure about if Amtrak charged taxes, so I called. They said it's added into the rail fare.

But I would much rather ride the train!!
There are no taxes on Amtrak fares. There is no federal ticket taxes or fees, and by law, states and local governments are prohibited from assessing taxes of any kind on Amtrak.

Except for the hard-core "I won't subject myself to the indignity of flying" railfan, I don't think Amtrak competes with air outside the BOS-NYC-WAS market. I know it does not for me. If I need to get from A to B, I fly. If I want to include the rail travel experience as part of the vacation, then I'll take Amtrak.

Just last weekend I did just that - flying to Chicago, taking the Builder Chicago to Portland, then flying home. To Chicago I just wanted to get there. I did not want to see everything in between. The 2 hour flight at $130 was perfect. I wanted to ride the Builder and see what the route and train had to offer (I did the SEA section 10 years ago, but never the PDX section). I did, and it was a pretty nice ride (not great, but nice). From Portland home I just wanted to get back. Once again the five hour flight at $290 was just right. In my case, I did not even consider Amtrak for the PHL-CHI and PDX-PHL segments. Those were simply transportation segments and, for PDX-PHL, I did not want to take three days and spend over $1000 to cover a five hour, $300 trip.

The French TGV planners have what they call the "three hour rule" (or whatever that is in French). Any train segment that takes three hours or less will compete well with air. Over three hours and the time advantage of air will win out. The NEC is a great example of that. The NYC-WAS segment is just under three hours. It does very well competing with the air shuttles. The NYC-BOS segment is closer to four hours. It does not do as well. The difference with the TGV is that three hours covers much more distance in France than Acela covers here. So, TGV does well for trips of over 400 miles. With Acela, the competitive distance is about 230 miles.
 
Yea, I agree. In comparing airplane time vs. train time, one has to add in airport time (1 or more hours) to train station time (what, 5 minutes?).

In terms of indignity, a few years ago, I was "randomly" pulled out of the security line at the airport for additional screening (I guess Italians are now all terrorists). I had to leave my, then, 3 year old behind in the terminal without any supervision.

 

Yea, I know that the TSA website attempts to claim, in bold type, that they would never do this, but such is a total lie. It is such an intentional lie, which only adds to the indignity. :angry:

Thank goodness, Amtrak doesn't do any such things at its stations. :wub:
 
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As they say, your mileage may vary. The air comparison really only makes sense in short corridors, and maybe some of the day trains if we're talking about places that don't have frequent/affordable air service (parts of the Vermonter, Adirondack, Pennsylvanian come to mind, though not necessarily the endpoints). I always recall a friend who, to get to Johnstown, PA from central NJ, flew from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh... I'm sure the travel time, with driving, security, and backtracking from PIT, came out about the same, but he insisted on making the flight.

When I'm on a LD train, I compare it to driving--without having to stop for meals, or to sleep, or to walk, or to use the bathroom, etc. Not all of the LD routes are time-competitive with driving, but once you factor in the stopping time, and any hint of traffic, they look pretty good.

But, even in the NEC, the competition varies. I've found, living in NYC and DC, that the real competition may be the new low-cost bus carriers (Megabus, BoltBus, etc.). Even though they can get stuck in traffic and, personally, I'm much more comfortable on the train, Amtrak can't really compete on price (and based on the sold-out trains I've been on, it doesn't necessarily have to).

Though I will throw out one pet peeve I've had lately: what happens when you get off at a station? Yes, sometimes you'll have someone meeting you, or you'll have public transportation, etc. There may be taxis, there may not. (I've noticed the latest timetables and website info don't list parking/taxis/etc. anymore.) In the best of circumstances, rental cars will be available near the station, but that's not that common. There are train trips I'd have taken that get NEAR my destination (let's say within a 2-3 hour drive at most) if it were easy to keep going... and no, taking a cab to the airport to rent a car isn't so "easy." It only adds fodder to those who would say, "Why didn't you just fly?"
 
I was "randomly" pulled out of the security line at the airport for additional screening (I guess Italians are now all terrorists).
These two statements are mutually exclusive. If it was random, your ancestry had nothing to do with it. What did the TSA respond with when you complained?

On topic, I think that the train can compete (and lose in some cases, which is OK - trains, planes and roads all have their place) with both. Like was said on the short haul flights, by the time you add up the "extra time" a train will be able to compete on time. On longer hauls the train can win out over a car depending on the timing of the trip.

Back when the ACC Championship game was held in JAX, my sister (a Navy Pilot) was unexpectedly sent to NAS Jax the week of the game (she was stationed in Hawaii at the time). Both of us being Virginia Tech graduates, it was a perfect opportunity to see her on short notice. Flying down was out of the question because of the high costs the week of the game and driving was out due to the tight timeline (I couldn't take any time off work, it's a 12-14 hour drive, and I needed to be back in DC on Sunday at noontime). However, the train made it possible - left DC after work, arrived in JAX at 8 or so Saturday morning. Went to the game, had a blast with my sister, got dropped back off at the train station Saturday evening and rolled back into DC Sunday morning. The ability to sleep and keep moving makes the train a much better solution than driving in some situations, even over medium to long distances).
 
And then there are those of us who are in my situation.

If I want to avail myself of going to an Amtrak station that has daily service, I have to drive at least 7 hours to get to one.

But, I can leave my driveway and be at the gate at my local airport that has decent service to all the major hubs in about 45 minutes. That time includes getting through the check-in and security process. Parking at our airport is almost at the door.

So, unless I want to fly to an Amtrak departure station, which sometimes even requires going the night before and having a hotel expense, flying is my only real choice along with driving. The only time I get to ride Amtrak are at Gatherings and my normal once a year week of riding just for the fun of it.
 
And then there are those of us who are in my situation.

If I want to avail myself of going to an Amtrak station that has daily service, I have to drive at least 7 hours to get to one.

But, I can leave my driveway and be at the gate at my local airport that has decent service to all the major hubs in about 45 minutes. That time includes getting through the check-in and security process. Parking at our airport is almost at the door.

So, unless I want to fly to an Amtrak departure station, which sometimes even requires going the night before and having a hotel expense, flying is my only real choice along with driving. The only time I get to ride Amtrak are at Gatherings and my normal once a year week of riding just for the fun of it.
Wow. Here I've been grousing because we only have the CZ coming through twice a day. The drive to the station is less than 10 minutes. The Airport is a bit further, around 20-30 minutes.
 
...Before we went on our first trip, I wasn't sure about if Amtrak charged taxes, so I called. They said it's added into the rail fare.

But I would much rather ride the train!!
There are no taxes on Amtrak fares. There is no federal ticket taxes or fees, and by law, states and local governments are prohibited from assessing taxes of any kind on Amtrak.

Except for the hard-core "I won't subject myself to the indignity of flying" railfan, I don't think Amtrak competes with air outside the BOS-NYC-WAS market. I know it does not for me. If I need to get from A to B, I fly. If I want to include the rail travel experience as part of the vacation, then I'll take Amtrak.
I whole-heartedly disagree.

If I want to go to Chicago, I can board the EB CL at 1:39AM and be in Chicago by nine (even if it is late) for about $50 with my SA discount.

If I fly out of CAK I have to board a 7AM flight (waking up at 4AM at the latest), and if we're on time I'll be in Chicago by ten (assuming I don't get routed through Atlanta, if that, then I won't get in until the afternoon). All for-- $70.

Ignore checked bag fees, ignore the hassle, and the plane costs more than Amtrak.

Amtrak can't really compete fare-to-fare with flights across the country, but short hops between cities is certainly an open playing field, especially if you want to go to a city without frequent air service...
 
For short runs, the true competition is the automobile. Any rail routes need to be time competitive with automobiles. If a trip by auto takes four hours, but the train takes five, the auto will win, but if the time on the train is equal or less than driving, then the train is in competition. Add in traffic congestion, weather, amenities on the train, then the train starts to become a better choice. If it's a lot faster then, the train becomes the top choice. The convenience of the automobile is hard to beat. Even in Europe, with high speed trains all over the place, a large amount of intercity travel is by car.

The new bus competitors have their problems, also. Last week, on a particularly hot day during this hot summer, the city of Chicago had to bring out air conditioned CTA buses so that people waiting for the Mega Bus had a way to get out of the heat. Since Mega Bus doesn't have any stations, passengers must wait outside in all kinds of weather. News reports on the incident mentioned that some of Mega Bus' runs were two to three hours late, some of it attributed to heavy traffic. The city several months ago moved the Mega Bus stop from in front of Union Station to a couple of blocks south, since the Mega Buses were taking up space needed by taxi cabs and their passengers were waiting inside Union Station. Since Mega Bus doesn't pay for the use of the station, or for the city-owned street, they were moved to a less congested spot. I guess you get what you pay for.
 
That being the case, I wonder why the city felt it had to bring the buses out to act as air conditioned stations for a company too cheap to pay for their own - hopefully MegaBus got the bill for that and not Chicago taxpayers!
 
Do no forget Greyhound and any other LD bus carrier.

Historically, before Amtak that is, you could usually depend upon the faster trains being faster than the bus.

But not so after the interstate highway system came into its own. That made the bus as well as the car time competiive over the train.

Example? In my childhood the fastest trains from Chattanooga to Atlanta took three hours.

Today the bus takes two hours. Guess where many of the would be train travelers are today?

Of those two trains which made the trip in 3 hours, one was discontinued in 1957. By the time the other was dropped in 1971 it had slowed to 3.5 hours probably due to freight congestion.
 
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Yea, I agree. In comparing airplane time vs. train time, one has to add in airport time (1 or more hours) to train station time (what, 5 minutes?).

In terms of indignity, a few years ago, I was "randomly" pulled out of the security line at the airport for additional screening (I guess Italians are now all terrorists). I had to leave my, then, 3 year old behind in the terminal without any supervision.

 

Yea, I know that the TSA website attempts to claim, in bold type, that they would never do this, but such is a total lie. It is such an intentional lie, which only adds to the indignity. :angry:

Thank goodness, Amtrak doesn't do any such things at its stations. :wub:
I agree totally with "random" in quotation marks. We got the "random" treatment regularly for a few years. Finally found out that it was because we were running on overseas originating tickets with multiple stops in the US. Somehow that made us suspicious characters. Now it the additional hassle of a wife with replaced knees and metal in her back and neck and me with metal in may leg, which in years past was never picked up. We always get the additional wanding, pat downs, etc. Guess being white plus 60 makes you highly suspicious.

Admittedly off topic, but for a few years our children were in a school that had a "random" drug testing poiciy. Funny how the kids the school administration KNEW never did any drugs got picked multiple times for these "random" tests. Hey, it make their statistics look good.
 
Guess being white plus 60 makes you highly suspicious.
You're darned right!
rolleyes.gif
It's those old fogeys that you least suspect!
laugh.gif
 
That being the case, I wonder why the city felt it had to bring the buses out to act as air conditioned stations for a company too cheap to pay for their own - hopefully MegaBus got the bill for that and not Chicago taxpayers!
About 10 years ago, a large number of people (mostly elderly) died during a heat wave and ever since the city has been hyper-sensitive to any heat related problems. I'm not sure who paid for the buses, but it points out the business model used by Mega Bus in regards to its passengers. You're on your own until you get on the bus. No ticket agents, no stations, no amenities of any kind.
 
Lets look at it another way, sure, some trains get slowed way down or even stopped for several hours, accidents happen, but my sister has been stuck on an airplane that pulled away from the terminal and then sat for over 2 hours, and everybody was told to stay in there seats, and she needs to walk every so often to prevent blood clots in her legs.

At least on a train you can do what you would be doing if it was moving instead of making a deal with the devil, trading your comfort and civil rights for speed, maybe.

Granted if your a petite person cramped seating is not as onerous as for those over 70 inches and 200 lbs.
 
Though I will throw out one pet peeve I've had lately: what happens when you get off at a station? Yes, sometimes you'll have someone meeting you, or you'll have public transportation, etc. There may be taxis, there may not. (I've noticed the latest timetables and website info don't list parking/taxis/etc. anymore.) In the best of circumstances, rental cars will be available near the station, but that's not that common. There are train trips I'd have taken that get NEAR my destination (let's say within a 2-3 hour drive at most) if it were easy to keep going... and no, taking a cab to the airport to rent a car isn't so "easy." It only adds fodder to those who would say, "Why didn't you just fly?"
One option is Enterprise rentals "they'll pick you up." Within a certain mile radius, of course, and only during their business hours. It's worth looking into at certain stations.
 
I agree totally with "random" in quotation marks. We got the "random" treatment regularly for a few years. Finally found out that it was because we were running on overseas originating tickets with multiple stops in the US. Somehow that made us suspicious characters. Now it the additional hassle of a wife with replaced knees and metal in her back and neck and me with metal in may leg, which in years past was never picked up. We always get the additional wanding, pat downs, etc. Guess being white plus 60 makes you highly suspicious.
On my last business trip I got pulled "randomly" on 3 of the last 4 flights I took, and then by customs!

Either I look very dodgy, or with odds like that should by more lottery tickets.
 
Guess being white plus 60 makes you highly suspicious.
You're darned right!
rolleyes.gif
It's those old fogeys that you least suspect!
laugh.gif
You kid, but the Holocaust Museum was shot up by an 88-year-old white guy, murdering a guard. Fortunately the other guards took him down before he could kill anyone else.
That said, it's pretty much an open secret that the "random" screening isn't so random. So unfortunately, it's only a matter time before another McVeigh gets through because he "doesn't look like a terrorist".
 
Those of you who know my mom will get a kick out of this one.

Right after 9/11, in Jan. 2002 we won a cruise, at the airports SHE (of all people) was randomly selected. I think that's proof positive that there is an element of random to it... if only just a little bit.

Oddly enough, only 14, they let be board the flight and get seated without her until she was done.
 
Hell, I just wish I could convince my mom about the comfort and convenience of train travel. We took one trip without researching anything, when I was a kid, that went bad, and now she seems to be turned off of it permanently. I just wanna know what to say to her when she says why dont we fly here, to catch the train to here, when theres a perfectly good train that goes the whole way.
 
It seems every time someone begins talking about trains, someone else instantly rejects the idea and yammers on and on about air planes being faster, better etc. For about longer than 300-400 miles and with our current service, I'll grant, planes are faster and will be until we get 500mph trains. But should airlines be the benchmark for train service? Or should cars?
amtrak probably sees itself competing with buses and private autos more than anything else. but as others have said, where a market for short-haul flights exists -- and there are plenty of such examples outside of the northeast -- amtrak (or any other passenger rail operator) can and should compete. the reasons are clear: 1) lower carbon impact and 2) reduced congestion (or at least more efficient growth).

let's take chicago as an example. can air traffic or auto traffic really increase that much more without a very significant investment in highway lanes or runways? probably not, which is why illinois has bet heavily on passenger rail. same for california, and **should** be the same for florida and texas.
 
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