which is better? Empire builder or via-rail Canadian?

[zephyr17]

The best schedule I had on the Canadian for scenery was back in the late 80s when it ran over the CP (a more scenic route in any case than CN). It left Vancouver about 3, so you had the Fraser River Canyon in daylight, at least the lower part. Then you hit Golden in the morning, and Field mid-morning, so you had the Rockies in mid-morning. I'd wake up coming down the hill from the Connought Tunnel in Rogers Pass.

Better timing on a better route. Sigh. At least it is still running, somewhere.

 

[zephyr17]

Via's fare don't vary much within a season (they basically have 3, peak, shoulder and off), so those prices should be good for most of the winter. They don't do complex yield management apart from the number of spaces available at the "discount" rate. Also, since VIA no longer separates "rail" and "accomodation" charges, there are some differences from how Amtrak would price it. The Cabin for 2 (Double Bedroom in traditional accomodation-speak) price essentially represents a 50% surcharge charge for single occupancy of the double room since the request was for only one person. The per person rate for 2 people in a Cabin for 2 would be the same as 1 person in a cabin for 1 ($2001/$1322 CAD).

Via touts its suite for 2, which is two cabins for 2 with the wall removed. I suppose this is similar to Amtrak's suite (for example, rooms D and E on a Superliner). However, Via's suite for 2 costs more than two cabins for 2 each for one person.

On Amtrak, the same is true, but I understand it is because the adjacent bedrooms are in different buckets. If only one bedroom is available in the lower bucket, it wouldn't necessarily be a penalty or upcharge for booking the suite, but it sounds like this would not apply to Via.

Has anyone here booked a suite on Via or Amtrak? Can anyone comment on the pricing scheme on either railway?

On Via, the 50% surchage applies for the two double bedrooms that make up the suite each occupied by a single person. It is quite simple. If you had four people in a bedroom suite, the per person price would be the same as two in a double bedroom, or one in a roomette.

On Amtrak you pay the accomodation charge for each room. If they are in separate buckets, one is at one bucket price, the other at the other.

I think Via's per person pricing scheme is more in line with what people expect today and is more understandable to the general public. Amtrak's rail + accomodation scheme is how the railroads always did it and is a holdover in that sense. I like Amtrak's scheme better, it is a "hotel room" model, you buy the transportation fare, then buy the room. But then again I am very used to it.

Physically, it is just like Amtrak. There is a removable barrier between certain rooms that can be opened up. Makes sense, since Amtrak's bedrooms (deluxe bedrooms) were modeled after the double bedroom, although perceptibly bigger. Pullman-Standard designed the Superliners, after all.

 

[willem]

Via's fare don't vary much within a season (they basically have 3, peak, shoulder and off), so those prices should be good for most of the winter. They don't do complex yield management apart from the number of spaces available at the "discount" rate. Also, since VIA no longer separates "rail" and "accomodation" charges, there are some differences from how Amtrak would price it. The Cabin for 2 (Double Bedroom in traditional accomodation-speak) price essentially represents a 50% surcharge charge for single occupancy of the double room since the request was for only one person. The per person rate for 2 people in a Cabin for 2 would be the same as 1 person in a cabin for 1 ($2001/$1322 CAD).

Via touts its suite for 2, which is two cabins for 2 with the wall removed. I suppose this is similar to Amtrak's suite (for example, rooms D and E on a Superliner). However, Via's suite for 2 costs more than two cabins for 2 each for one person.

On Via, the 50% surchage applies for the two double bedrooms that make up the suite each occupied by a single person. It is quite simple. If you had four people in a bedroom suite, the per person price would be the same as two in a double bedroom, or one in a roomette.

I must be dense, or I didn't make myself clear. The Via suite for 2 costs more than two cabins for 2 each occupied by one person. Put another way, the cost of a suite for 2 was more than double the cost of one cabin for 2 occupied by one person. I believe this is contrary to your explanation, although my ability to misunderstand is vast.

 

[zephyr17]

Well, maybe there is an extra surcharge for the two rooms, or the first bedroom was the last in the "Discount" inventory and the second was in the regularly priced inventory. With 2 rooms at the 50% single surcharge, they are missing out on one whole fare, so an additional surcharge would not surprise me. Especially, if they "tout" it. Frankly, I haven't noticed that they really tout it, especially for for two people. The closest I have seen is the brochure where it talks about suites and "To accomodate four persons, please contact us." There isn't a suite option on the web booking engine, just Cabin for 1, 2.

With VIA it is pretty easy to figure out, just use the Cabin for 1 price per person as the base and you can probably impute what is going on. VIA's pricing is pretty straightforward. Have to have the actual quotes to do it, though.

 

[Skyline]

Ah, now I am enlightened and I concur. In general, as opposed to the "timed for Scenery" CZ, the EB is almost timed AGAINST scenery. For it to catch the Rockies and the Cascades it would have to be a CHI-MSP overnight train. Which would have its charms...

And if it is on time, the westbound Canadian is timed against scenery too. When planning the trip, I was hoping to be about six hours late to counteract that. Be careful what you wish for. We were 13+ hours late, but we did get a lot of scenery most folks miss.

It was mid-May, and there were 28 cars of all types in the consist. Like a mid-summer Canadian but slightly lower fares and very few young people. Myriad senior tour groups from Britain, Australia, and elsewhere all on the same train. Additionally we were deadheading a Rocky Mountaineer coach which more than one crew member insisted was causing #1 that trip to adhere to slow orders. I never got a real explanation for that though. Is that even plausible?

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Slow orders could have been because of a defect in the Deadhead Rocky Mountain Car, but the usual reasons for Late to Very Late Canadians are due to the many Long freights receiving dispatching priority.

 

[thully]

Been thinking about taking either (or both) of these trains at some point in the near future - was actually looking to do so for the Gathering, though by the time I decided I was going the fares were kind of high.

Thinking I may make a loop trip out of it at some point- living in Michigan makes this pretty easy to do (as I'd take the Wolverine to/from the EB and VIA Corridor from Windsor to/from the Canadian. Any idea which direction would be better to do it in? From this thread, I get the impression that both trains are better going eastbound as far as scenery, though the season would factor into it as well with more daylight in summer.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Most of us recommend taking the Canadian in the "OFF Season"/Winter since it is much cheaper and you can use the Park Car anytime. ( consider getting a Lower Birth/ best deal they have on a Discounted Fare).

Eastbound from Vancouver to Toronto is the best way to Roll since you see the Rockies in Daylight.Expect it to be LATE to Very Late either way!

As for the Builder, theres 2 ways to go, the Seattle Section (#7/8) and the Portland Section (#27/#28).

Westbound on #8 out of Seattle has the best scenery since you see Puget Sound, some of the Cascades and Glacier Park and Minnesota/Wisconsin in Daylight.

If you take the Portland Section ( they join/Split @ Spokane @ O-Dark- Thirty) you ride up the Columbia in The dark Eastbound in the Winter but in Daylight Eastbound.

All things considered Eastbound on the Canadian and Empire Builder is probably the best overall way to roll. YMMV

 

[JRR]

I don’t know about the winter, but this summer, on the Canadian, only the “Prestige” passengers were able to access the Park Car.

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[tommylicious]

The Canadian is a must for reasons other than scenery as well. The vintage equipment, its excellent condition, the outstanding staff, and the truly amazing food make it all worthwhile.

 

[Chessie]

Just came back from the Canadian.

We did a triangle:

Flew to Edmonton, picked rental car for a road trip through Jasper, the icefield highway to Banff and then to Golden, Revelstoke, Vernon, Kamloops and finally Vancouver (took 11 days) and then returned the rental car in Vancouver and took the Canadian to Edmonton.

Great experience! I highly recommend it.

 

[Lonestar648]

I prefer the EB eastbound from Seattle going along the Sound, though the eastbound Portland section is beautiful as well, just no dining car, but a decent box dinner. I have not done the Canadian yet, Summer pricing and availability when I can travel have been a deterrent.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

I dont know about the winter, but this summer, on the Canadian, only the Prestige passengers were able to access the Park Car.

Then someone got it wrong.....hope you didn't miss out on the Park Car!

All Sleeper passengers have access to the Park Car yearround except it is restricted to Prestige only in the summer on the first night only departing Toronto and Vancouver..and also most mornings. From 2pm on all sleeper passengers have access to the Park Car even during the summer.

"Access to the Prestige Park car: Starting April 30, 2017, during peak season access to the Prestige Park Car will be limited to scheduled times for Sleeper Plus passengers. Sleeper Plus passengers will be able to access the Prestige Park car on the following schedule: from 2:00PM until last call 10:30PM, with the exception of evenings upon departure from Toronto and Vancouver where access will be exclusive to Prestige passengers. *Scheduled access times are subject to change.

A select number of seats in the Prestige Park car are reserved for our Prestige passengers at all times in the scenic dome (year-round)"

http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/lecanadien/AMENITIES_ENG.pdf?ga_pdf=compare-amenities

 

[JRR]

Interesting info. Wish I had that while on the trip. We were advised otherwise.

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[JRR]

We did have access to the Park Car on the Ocean and enjoyed it very much, especially the Railfan view and accompanied entertainment.

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[Skyline]

I dont know about the winter, but this summer, on the Canadian, only the Prestige passengers were able to access the Park Car.

Then someone got it wrong.....hope you didn't miss out on the Park Car!

All Sleeper passengers have access to the Park Car yearround except it is restricted to Prestige only in the summer on the first night only departing Toronto and Vancouver..and also most mornings. From 2pm on all sleeper passengers have access to the Park Car even during the summer.

"Access to the Prestige Park car: Starting April 30, 2017, during peak season access to the Prestige Park Car will be limited to scheduled times for Sleeper Plus passengers. Sleeper Plus passengers will be able to access the Prestige Park car on the following schedule: from 2:00PM until last call 10:30PM, with the exception of evenings upon departure from Toronto and Vancouver where access will be exclusive to Prestige passengers. *Scheduled access times are subject to change.

A select number of seats in the Prestige Park car are reserved for our Prestige passengers at all times in the scenic dome (year-round)"

http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/lecanadien/AMENITIES_ENG.pdf?ga_pdf=compare-amenities

That was our experience in May, too. After 2pm we could use the Park car because we were in regular sleepers. The first two rows of seats in the dome were off-limits to anyone not travelling Prestige. These were clearly marked.

The Park is classic LD railroading, upgraded. Not to be missed.

 

[Lonestar648]

How many Prestige cars are in a consist? How does the Canadian monitor who has access? Is it the honor system or does the staff check tickets?

 

[zephyr17]

There appear to be 2 Prestige Chateaus, plus the Prestige rooms in the Prestige Park in the summer. One Prestige Chateau in the winter.

Since I ride in the off season, I don't know about how access is controlled to the Park when it is entirely restricted. In the winter, the first two rows have Prestige only marked, people generally respected it.

 

[JRR]

My recollection is that we were given "wrist bands" to wear which identified us as sleeper car riders.

I am not sure about the "Prestige" riders, but they had their own separate lounge area in the Jasper Station where we got on, and were taken by shuttle to their cars which were at the end( with the exception of the trailing Park car) of our 27 car consist.

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[Maverickstation]

We were on The Ocean a few weeks back and all Sleeper Plus riders were given wristbands to identify who could use the Park Car, and for that matter the 2nd dome Car as well. These Dome Cars are true gems of the past, and I would recommend riding them while VIA is still using them.

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[zephyr17]

When I rode it last fall, there were no wrist bands. They just knew who was who. Of course, it was an 8 car train that wasn't full, so they could keep track of who was who, as opposed to the 26+ car behemoth it becomes in the summer.

I am riding again, departing Vancouver on 10/31. I'll post what they do.

 

[Maverickstation]

As to why The Canadian has it over the Empire Builder,there is nothing like riding in a Vista Dome, and an Observation Car.

 

[JRR]

And the food was outstanding!

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[s10mk]

Op here.

Sorry to bump an old thread. But I've been getting ready to book my tickets. I'm planning on traveling in early may, and to get low buckets on amtrak, I need to book early..but via rail sleeper plus deals are only available a few weeks or at most a month in advance. Would it be a bad idea to book the amtrak portions of my trip now, and wait for sleeper plus deals on via rail?

 

[zephyr17]

There is no telling whether or not your city pairs will become available on the sleeper plus deals on the dates you want. If you try to shoot for the deals, you need to keep your plans flexible, so if you book Amtrak, you should do it in such a way that at least a couple of departures of the Canadian are available. Also, just FYI, most of the deals lately seem to be only for berths, not rooms, not sure if you care, though.

You need to allow for the Canadian's truly catastrophic on time performace in your travel plans, 10 hours late is absolutely routine, 24 hours late is not uncommon now, and a recent trip was 44 hours late. You need at least a day layover at your endpoint and, the way it is performing now, two days is not a bad idea. Also, one more reason to go eastbound rather than westbound is they do a same day turnaround in Toronto, and the horribly late eastbound train delays the departure of the westbound for hours and hours.

Sign up for Via's frequent traveler program, Preference. If you spend over $999 CAD in one year, you qualify for their elite tier and you will get a 50% off (peak fare) coupon for Sleeper Plus that you can use any time and reserve whenever you like.

Finally, bear in mind that in May the Park Car restrictions will be in effect.