What to do when one of our own goes off the deep end?

[MattW]

For years now, I've been refining my pro-transit talking points, and arguments, and style against the anti-transit folks. But more recently, I'm finding myself in a stickier situation that I am simply not prepared for. A member of another forum and I are both strong transit transit advocates for the Atlanta area, but he has gone off the deep end with his ideas. I don't simply mean he has grand visions that are nice, but not achieveable in today's political climate, I mean flat out crazy ideas. The latest discussion revolves around running our MARTA service, 52 miles to Gainesville, GA. Yes, he is insistent on heavy rail rather than even considering commuter rail calling it "cutting corners" despite HRT costing up to 10 times more in the corridor for only 3-6 times capacity. Now this discussion isn't taking into account the freight traffic, we're both just handwaving that away for now while we focus on the overall service, but frankly, his ideas are crazy. He has also proposed running heavy rail the 70 miles out to Athens, GA. Simply, how do I successfully argue against him? I'm all out of ideas.

 

[Paulus]

That man has a bright future ahead of him working for BART.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Tell him his ideas are impractical.

 

[jis]

Ask him what is the total projected ridership he has in mind. Then ask him what is it that one can get with heavy rail that one cannot with commuter rail, for the projected ridership (if the number that he comes up with make any sense. If not first challenge him/her on that). If you get a coherent answer then knock the points down one by one. If you get a rant then tell him he is full of it.

I know this may not be the best way to win friends and influence people. So it is upto you as to whether you value your friendship with him/her more or planning accuracy more.

 

[Alice]

The other advocate is not who you need to influence, it is decision makers and those who influence them, whether they be politicians, officials, voters, or newspaper columnists. You want to be the go-to person for honest information and great quotes.

 

[MattW]

Tell him his ideas are impractical.

Ask him what is the total projected ridership he has in mind. Then ask him what is it that one can get with heavy rail that one cannot with commuter rail, for the projected ridership (if the number that he comes up with make any sense. If not first challenge him/her on that). If you get a coherent answer then knock the points down one by one. If you get a rant then tell him he is full of it.

I know this may not be the best way to win friends and influence people. So it is upto you as to whether you value your friendship with him/her more or planning accuracy more.

Done that (to both of you). But it's like arguing with a brick wall. All he ever says is "it's needed" and never justifies it. Maybe if I link to the discussion, it will help clarify things: http://www.city-data.com/forum/atlanta/2075740-marta-expansion-into-clayton-long-awaited-25.html#post35493888

I am [unsurprisingly] MattCW, and the person in question is Born2Roll. His posts will be easily recognizable by the essay-length responses to single paragraphs. The specific post I linked to is what kicked it off this time, but this isn't his first time proposing HRT to ridiculous distances (I can't be sure, but I think one time he proposed extending MARTA to Charlotte, NC). I'm not worried about keeping him as a friend, I care far more about the transit side.

The other advocate is not who you need to influence, it is decision makers and those who influence them, whether they be politicians, officials, voters, or newspaper columnists. You want to be the go-to person for honest information and great quotes.

What I'm afraid of is he's been sending his ideas to politicians and such and by doing that is helping them to view transit advocates as out of touch nut cases.

 

[tp49]

You can take solace in that they guy you're arguing with doesn't know all that much about the LIRR. I'd argue that his assessment of the line to Montauk is incorrect as the higher density schedule is west of Babylon. Service from Babylon to Montauk isn't nearly as frequent.

That said, there is an old saying where I come from "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Might be appropriate for your situation.

 

[jis]

Atlanta suburbs as far out as the ones being consider have neither the population density, and nor the transit connected concentration of jobs that comes anywhere near Long Island South Shore and Manhattan. So LIRR as an example is a red herring in this context. Also LIRR is commuter rail, not heavy rail per FRA definition.

Neither is Atlanta to Charlotte anything like even some of the busier dual mode hauled commuter lines out of New York.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Some transit advocates ARE out of touch nutcases.

There isn't much you can do. There is another old saying: "No matter what side you are on there is someone on your side who you wish was on the other side."

There are people in my organization I wish would shut up and emote up a tree. What can you do?

 

[crescent2]

The other advocate is not who you need to influence, it is decision makers and those who influence them, whether they be politicians, officials, voters, or newspaper columnists. You want to be the go-to person for honest information and great quotes.

I like Alice's post. Sometimes it's pointless to even try to have a serious, respectful discussion with crazies.

 

[JayPea]

When I first saw the title there were any number of AU'ers that came to my mind. :lol: