What is happening to the SWC route?

[Green Maned Lion]

Listen, I have been an auto enthusiast and race car driver. And I have one of the largest collection of car magazines in the country (every issue of MT, C&D, R&T and Automobile). And even the car magazines are reporting- with lament- that the love affair is ending and overall teens aren't that interested in learning to drive. More over, most that are are mostly interested in A-B transportation and would happily ride an effective transit system instead if such existed.

 

[SarahZ]

Katy, the town named after the Missouri-Kansas-Texas ("M-K-T") railroad. Sigh.

Anyway, the drop in drivers' licenses, drop in Vehicle Miles Travelled, aging of the population with drivers' licenses, and drop in car ownership are all real nationwide trends.

I haven't seen a state or local breakdown of those numbers. Maybe they're still car-crazy in Katy, but if they are, it means that the trend is even *stronger* elsewhere.

Neroden, your in New York. That's a totally different world. The only reason for a drop in teen drivers is they can't get a job and don't have the money for a car and the insurance. Here in Texas there are plenty of jobs and money for cars. This railfan type dream that all this means more demand for trains is just hallucinating.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/trn_lic_dri_tot_num-transportation-licensed-drivers-total-number

NY isn't far behind TX when it comes to the number of drivers. I wouldn't call it a totally different world at all.

Car and gas prices have gone up, but wages haven't. Summer jobs at the shore don't cover the price tag of a decent used car anymore.

 

[neroden]

I read some more in-depth analysis from surveys: when teens are asked why they're not getting licenses, it looks like it's about 1/3 "prefer not to drive", 1/3 "can't afford to drive", and 1/3 "can't be bothered, other priorities".

 

[henryj]

NY isn't far behind TX when it comes to the number of drivers. I wouldn't call it a totally different world at all.

Car and gas prices have gone up, but wages haven't. Summer jobs at the shore don't cover the price tag of a decent used car anymore.

When I worked for Sohio(later BP) they had just moved their HQ from San Francisco to Houston. Several people had just gotten their driver's license as they had no need for a car in SF. In Houston, they couldn't live without one. Like I said, it's a totally different world. Those that don't live in it have no idea.

 

[Train person]

Listen, I have been an auto enthusiast and race car driver. And I have one of the largest collection of car magazines in the country (every issue of MT, C&D, R&T and Automobile)

Does that rather uninteresting factoid make you an expert or a foamer??

 

[dart330]

Katy, the town named after the Missouri-Kansas-Texas ("M-K-T") railroad. Sigh.

Anyway, the drop in drivers' licenses, drop in Vehicle Miles Travelled, aging of the population with drivers' licenses, and drop in car ownership are all real nationwide trends.

I haven't seen a state or local breakdown of those numbers. Maybe they're still car-crazy in Katy, but if they are, it means that the trend is even *stronger* elsewhere.

Neroden, your in New York. That's a totally different world. The only reason for a drop in teen drivers is they can't get a job and don't have the money for a car and the insurance. Here in Texas there are plenty of jobs and money for cars. This railfan type dream that all this means more demand for trains is just hallucinating.

Katy is so suburban you really have no other options than to drive. The entire "city" was designed around the automobile. If you look at the Houston metro as a whole the places where you don't have to drive a car are booming (Downtown, Midtown & Montrose) and there is a huge shortage in available housing in these areas.

The younger generation just does not find it acceptable to sit in traffic 90min in order to get to work. They'd rather give up the convenience of a car and sit on the bus playing on the smartphone. There are plenty of studies showing this shift and how the suburbs are starting to die off due to the lack of alternative transportation options.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Listen, I have been an auto enthusiast and race car driver. And I have one of the largest collection of car magazines in the country (every issue of MT, C&D, R&T and Automobile)

Does that rather uninteresting factoid make you an expert or a foamer??

I called myself an enthusiast. I don't recall calling myself an expert. Since I have won several races, I might call myself an expert race driver. I know cars fairly well, but would not call myself an expert. And your commentary is no more interesting than mine.

 

[Train person]

Listen, I have been an auto enthusiast and race car driver. And I have one of the largest collection of car magazines in the country (every issue of MT, C&D, R&T and Automobile)

Does that rather uninteresting factoid make you an expert or a foamer??

I called myself an enthusiast. I don't recall calling myself an expert. Since I have won several races, I might call myself an expert race driver. I know cars fairly well, but would not call myself an expert. And your commentary is no more interesting than mine.

It wasn't meant to be. I am not claiming to be the greatest at everything I do. You do. I suppose it's easy to be who you want to be on the internet. Quite tedious.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I am an expert or knowledgable on anything I feel qualified to open my mouth about. If I don't think I know anything about a subject, which would be the vast majority of non transportation subjects talked about here, I simply don't say anything at all.

 

[henryj]

Katy is so suburban you really have no other options than to drive. The entire "city" was designed around the automobile. If you look at the Houston metro as a whole the places where you don't have to drive a car are booming (Downtown, Midtown & Montrose) and there is a huge shortage in available housing in these areas.

The younger generation just does not find it acceptable to sit in traffic 90min in order to get to work. They'd rather give up the convenience of a car and sit on the bus playing on the smartphone. There are plenty of studies showing this shift and how the suburbs are starting to die off due to the lack of alternative transportation options.

Well actually we have the park and ride option to go downtown which I have used many times. It's faster than driving. But that is all we have in Katy and that doesn't run on weekends. Downtown, which you seem to be talking about, now has the light rail system developing and such that it might be feasible to live there without a car. However, let me remind you that cities such as Houston and the DFW metroplex cover vast areas and are very diverse. One can live and work without ever going downtown as I have all my life here. It's also very HOT here most of the year. So public transport works, but only for a few. Even flying or taking a train, if we had one, to DFW is inconvenient to many including myself. It's just faster and more convenient to drive up there than to try and drive to Hobby airport or if we had trains to the downtown station. Even if they added a suburban stop, it would be in Tomball or Huntsville and that's just as far and as long a drive for me as the airport as it would be for most of the people living around Houston. This idea that somehow the younger generation is going to flock downtown to live and the suburbs are doing to die off triggering a sudden increase in the demand for public transport is just a foamers dream. It will never happen. What actually may develop is clusters of businesses and working people living together in cells around the big cities and the option of working at home with the development of the digital/electronic culture which would actually eliminate the need for public transport expansion, particularly downtown. The thing that may die out is actually the downtown itself, just becoming another cluster. Something to think about.

Now can we get back to talking about the SWC re-route and GML, can you and your friends take your pissing contest somewhere else. I am really interested in news about the SWC.

 

[Ryan]

This idea that somehow the younger generation is going to flock downtown to live and the suburbs are doing to die off triggering a sudden increase in the demand for public transport is just a foamers dream.

Maybe in Texas (but I doubt it).

In the rest of the country, it's reality.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Like I said, I got no problem with serving Raton Pass, but the resources necessary to keep it open (what was it, $500 million?) could be much better spent on providing rail service in *so* many other places. The Lackawanna Cutoff comes to mind . . .

Now, now. Don't do math like Cong Mica, please. He couldn't work up a scandal

over Amtrak's annual losses on food & beverages until he added up 10 years

into a total. Only that 10-year number was big enuff to support a press release

(and even then failed to crack a billion).

The $500 million to continue the current route of the SW Chief is a 10-year total,

or $50 million a year, divided among five proposed partners: Amtrak, BSNF, Kansas,

Colorado, New Mexico.

I'm guessing BSNF believes that avoiding the aggravation of carrying the Chief on

the main line is worth $5 million a year. So that $5 million, or $50 million over 10 years,

ain't going to the Lackawanna Cutoff no way, no how.

Likewise, Kansas might in theory spend the $5 million a year on the route thru Wichita,

or extending the Heartland Flyer, but that money is not going out of state. Colorado

will spend its $5 or $50 million in Colorado but not on the Lackawanna Cutoff. And

New Mexico, ditto.

So only Amtrak's lousy $5 million a year could be directed elsewhere if the SW Chief

is not kept on the current route. That amount is probably not easily transferrable to

another project in any case. Wonder if it isn't being offered to appease BSNF, which

so clearly doesn't want the Chief on the Trans Con, and on the good will and lengthy

trackage of which Amtrak operates.

So that "$500 million" ain't going nowhere. We'll have to get the Lackawanna Cutoff

rebuilt without it.

 

[jebr]

You'd need $10 million a year from each of the five partners to get $50 million a year, not $5 million.

 

[the Duck]

There are only 4 partners not 5. New Mexico is out of the picture, Their state constitution does not allow public funds directly or indirectly to be given to a private railroad. Amtrak said to the 3 states--We don't; have the money--you 3 States divide our share amongst yourselves Now the 5 partners are down to 3. Kansas really not want to put money on SWC route. Now the 5 partners is down to 2. and Colorado voted to take care of only that which is in Colorado. Now the 5 is down to 1----the owner of the track. So the whole monkey is back in their ball court.

 

[henryj]

This idea that somehow the younger generation is going to flock downtown to live and the suburbs are doing to die off triggering a sudden increase in the demand for public transport is just a foamers dream.

Maybe in Texas (but I doubt it).

In the rest of the country, it's reality.

Only in your dreams Ryan.

 

[Ryan]

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304830704577493032619987956

Many U.S. cities are growing faster than their suburbs for the first time in decades, reflecting shifting attitudes about urban living as well as the effect of a housing bust that has put a damper on moving.

According to Census data released Thursday, in 27 of the nation's 51 largest metropolitan areas, city centers grew faster than suburbs between July 2010 and July 2011. By contrast, from 2000 to 2010 only five metro areas saw their cores grow faster than the surrounding suburbs.

Among those favoring cities over suburbs are Sarah Talbot, a 35-year-old in Washington who works at a nonprofit. Ms. Talbot and her husband bought their Capitol Hill-area home in November 2009 and today have an eight-month-old daughter. They can walk to public transportation, grocery stores and parks, all while avoiding suburban gridlock. Ms. Talbot says they plan to stay at least several years as their daughter moves into elementary school, but will continue to reassess based on the quality of the school system.

 

[SarahZ]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/17/nyregion/suburbs-try-to-hold-onto-young-adults-as-exodus-to-cities-appears-to-grow.html?_r=0

Since 2000, Westchester, Nassau and Suffolk have experienced a drop in the number of 25- to 44-year-olds, with the declines particularly sharp in more affluent communities. Between 2000 and 2011, Rye, for example, had a 63 percent decrease in 25- to 34-year-old residents and a 16 percent decrease in 35- to 44-year-olds.

Some suburbs are working diligently to find ways to hold onto their young. In the past decade, Westbury, N.Y., has built a total of 850 apartments — condos, co-ops and rentals — near the train station, a hefty amount for a village of 15,000 people. Late last year it unveiled a new concert venue, theSpace at Westbury, that books performers like Steve Earle, Tracy Morgan and Patti Smith.

Long Beach, N.Y., with a year-round population of 33,000, has also been refreshing its downtown near the train station over the last couple of decades. The city has provided incentives to spruce up signage and facades, remodeled pavements and crosswalks, and provided more parking. A smorgasbord of ethnic restaurants flowered on Park Avenue, the main street.

 

[Ryan]

But Henry sees driver's ed cars, so none of that liberal media crap is to believed.

 

[Bob Dylan]

But Henry sees driver's ed cars, so none of that liberal media crap is to believed.

Katy is a classic example of of a nice small town that was ruined by people leaving the evil Houston when living in the burbs was "the hot thing" to do!"
Now youngsters don't want to live in the burbs and split heading for the bright lights of the city soon as they can! Houston is the new LA, but all cities in Texas were like when the car (and pickup) was king this but now living downtown is the hot new thing! (Sorry henry )

 

[VentureForth]

Wow. I take a weekend off, and the SWC Reroute thread is talking about Katy, TX - nice town where my cousin lives, but no where near the Transcon or existing SWC route.

I digress...

 

[WoodyinNYC]

You'd need $10 million a year from each of the five partners to get $50 million a year, not $5 million.

I used to think that maybe I had early Alzheimer's.

But now I think it's too late for that diagnosis.

Now I need all the help I can get just to make coherent posts.

Thanks for the correction.

But with five proposed partners, at $5 or at $10 million

per year, we're looking at nickels and dimes.

So I have no passion for this argument. If the current route

is saved, fine. If the SW Chief moves to the Trans Con, fine.

In a more perfect world, we'd have two trains each way on

every LD route every day. So I'd like to see one SW Chief on

both routes, making a second frequency Chicago-Newton

(near-Wichita) and again Albuquerque-L.A.

An extended Heartland Flyer could make a second frequency

Wichita-Chicago. And a Front Line train Cheyenne-Ft Collins-

Denver-Colorado Springs-Pueblo-Raton Pass-Albuquerque-

Las Cruces-El Paso would mean a second (or third) frequency

over the Raton Pass tracks.

But in the long meanwhile, we'll be lucky to save the LD trains

from the haters, no matter which route the SW Chief takes.

 

[printman2000]

Looks like a special train to talk about this issue...

http://m.therepublic.com/view/story/75f311c6b51c4133be1797151e109133/KS--Amtrak-Southwest-Chief

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[the Duck]

Greyhound is moving into Amtrak"s Amshack in Raton ,NM. Does that fact tell you anything?

 

[printman2000]

Here is another link to the same story from a local news station. They fixed an error in the first link...

http://www.newschannel10.com/story/25969151/amtrak-ceo-to-make-kansas-whistle-stop-tour

First one says "The service is in jeopardy because BNSF, which owns the track, needs to upgrade it for its freight trains."

Second correctly says "The route is in jeopardy because the track, which is owned by BNSF, needs to be upgraded for passenger service, but BNSF doesn't require the upgrades for its freight operations."

 

[Bedford]

This is confusing. If the transcon would be faster, attract more riders and be cheaper to operate what is the head of Amtrak and the head of BNSF doing spending their valuable time riding a train through western Kansas promoting the inferior route?