What I want: more Pennsylvanians

[northnorthwest]

I mean the train, not the people.

I was just looking at the route for Thanksgiving time PHL to PGH and was again reminded how useless this route is. I'm not going to pay for a long (7.5 hours) train ride that takes up the entire day, leaving PHL after noon and getting to PGH around 8pm. The day is over. The eastbound schedule is more reasonable.

Until we get high speed rail I think the minimum this route needs is 3 trains a day. Assuming it really takes 7.5 hours for the trip, I would like these options:

dep PHL 8:00am arr PGH 3:30pm

dep PHL 12:00pm arr PGH 7:30pm (with a diner in operation the whole time)

dep PHL midnight arr PGH 7:30am (with sleepers)

The main thing is there needs to be an overnight train with sleepers both ways. It could even be all sleepers. I don't understand why there aren't more sleepers, and it could be marketed as a convenience for business travelers.

All these trains could also originate in New York 1.5 hours earlier.

 

[Anderson]

So would I. I'd like to see something similar on the LSL, and most of those trains you mention extended to Chicago. Heck, I want something similar on the routes in VA. The problem is (A) buying the "slots" on the line, (B) getting the equipment, and © getting funding to operate it. In short, it's all down to money.

 

[the_traveler]

Correct, all you need is money. Lots of money!

First you need money to buy the slots from Norfolk Southern (the railroad that owns the tracks - they are only owned by Amtrak between Philadelphia and Harrisburg). Then you have to have money to buy new rolling stock - including new sleepers - and then wait a few years for them to be built. And finally you have to get the Commonwealth to commit funds to subsidize the service!

Once you have all three, you can begin talking about expanding service!

And don't forget there are mountains and towns in between, so a train is not going to average 60-70 MPH like a car would.

 

[Barciur]

I don't know if all-sleeper would be a good idea, in all fairness. It's too expensive and would price people out. And I think having 2 a day - with one overnight - would be ideal. And overnight Pennsy would also be a really nice option for a "Keystone-night". If it left, NYP at sya 11PM, it would be in Philly by about 12:30, say depart 12:45 or something and serve as the late-night train Keystone express. Being able to get home from Philly to Lancaster or Harrisburg at that time would be so nice to have.

 

[afigg]

So would I. I'd like to see something similar on the LSL, and most of those trains you mention extended to Chicago. Heck, I want something similar on the routes in VA. The problem is (A) buying the "slots" on the line, (B) getting the equipment, and © getting funding to operate it. In short, it's all down to money.

A second daily Pennsylvanian is a worthwhile proposal. I'm not so sure about an overnight train with sleepers. I do not see a state paying to subsidize sleepers.

However, state funding is the sticking point. If the PA House passes a version of the gas tax and transportation revenue increase bill that has been stalled in the legislature for months, then Penn DOT (under a new Governor) might have enough funding in several years to pursue a second daily train (and SEPTA could get off the severely inadequate capital funding near death watch list).

Come to think of it, whatever happened to the Keystone West feasibility study? Somebody still working on it?

 

[Paulus]

The main thing is there needs to be an overnight train with sleepers both ways. It could even be all sleepers. I don't understand why there aren't more sleepers, and it could be marketed as a convenience for business travelers.

Because much, if not most, of the ridership is from stations along the middle of the route, which is highly unlikely to ride a train with such ugly hours for them, much less purchase a room for it, and the economics just don't make sense. Your maximum capacity drops to about 40-60% of its previous capacity while increasing costs by at least 7% (based on existing Keystone car-mile costs, as of 2008-2009, and a single OBS attendant per car for 10 hours @23.10 [including taxes and benefits]). That's exclusive of a diner which basically shoots your costs up all to hell. Meanwhile, the market you're trying to get traffic from (NY/PHL to Pittsburgh air) only had 371,000 passengers July 2012-August 2013 and I'd be surprised if you broke a double digit percentage of the market.

In FY2012, the Pennsylvanian had a per seat mile cost of $0.194 and had an average fare of $0.192 per seat-mile, about break-even without considering occupancy. Not changing the staffing or the dinette to a diner, a sleeper version would raise that to $0.402 simply from the reduced seating levels. You're looking at trying to appeal to folks with an average $350 round trip fare from New York City or $280 from Philadelphia and that's horribly unlikely. You're barely competitive with flying, without the diners that you want or any OBS for the sleepers, and you aren't going to steal anybody over from the Turnpike either. So how do you plan on convincing the Pennsylvania legislature that this is a good train service to fund? You'll probably have some rail advocacy groups eating out of your hand because that's an easy way to brag about a high occupancy rate and high average fares and high passenger miles, but you'll lose a ton of money and, more importantly, fail to provide any useful transportation.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Amtrak is a completely unknown quantity in Pittsburgh too. As is mass transit in general. There's no commuter trains or anything, so people are vaguely suspicious of the whole thing.

 

[benjibear]

Yes, Pennsylvania's two biggest cities have poor rail service between them. Since Harrisburg, our state capitol, is between the two, I think it should be a no brainer to have increased service.

My proposal would be as follows for two trains a day:

Westbound: Train 1 Depart PHL at 5:30 AM, Depart HAR at 7:15 AM, Arrive PGH 1:00 PM

Train 2 Depart PHL at 3:30 PM, Depart HAR at 5:15 PM, Arrive PGH 11:00 PM

Eastbound: Train 1 Depart PGH 7:00 AM Depart Harrisburg 12:45 PM, Arrive PHL 2:30 PM

Train 2 Depart PGH at .5:15 PM Depart Harrisburg at 11:00 PM, Arrive PHL 12:45PM

This schedule would allow a person to go to either Harrisburg from the west or to Pittsburgh and be able to spend a half a day in those towns to take a same day return trip. Granted it a long day. If you just want a little more time, you can stay one night. Now you can't even do it without staying the night.

 

[jis]

Train 2 Depart PGH at .5:15 PM Depart Harrisburg at 11:00 PM, Arrive PHL 12:45PM

That would be a very looooong and boring run from Harrisburg to Philly of more than 12 hours

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Train 2 Depart PGH at .5:15 PM Depart Harrisburg at 11:00 PM, Arrive PHL 12:45PM

That would be a very looooong and boring run from Harrisburg to Philly of more than 12 hours

Like my day on Saturday. Left WIL at 6:53 and arrived back at 6:53.

 

[Paulus]

Amtrak is a completely unknown quantity in Pittsburgh too. As is mass transit in general. There's no commuter trains or anything, so people are vaguely suspicious of the whole thing.

Isn't the station in a rather sketchy area as well? I know some friends of mine back in college were less than thrilled with it.

 

[Anderson]

It's not that it's in a sketchy area...it's that it's in the basement of the old station.

Benji: That'd probably be:
"Train 2 Depart PGH at .5:15 PM Depart Harrisburg at 11:00 PM, Arrive PHL 12:45AM". That said, I see little reason not to at least originate train 1 (at the very least) at NYP and terminate train 2 at NYP. The times would be lousy, but (A) NYP has the bigger yard and (B) NYP generates enough business that it should make sense.*

*Actually, all things considered, I would be sorely tempted to shuffle that time and run the train as some sort of split of 66/67 to enable a run-through to BOS. Maybe just through cars would make sense (it's NYP/PHL at night, so a car swap wouldn't be impractical, and at NYP it wouldn't be much of a hindrance to scheduling, either).

Edit: And I'm suddenly envisioning a "Shoreliner of Everywhere" that sends sections out to Hampton Roads, Lynchburg/Roanoke, and Pittsburgh.

 

[railiner]

The OP was just born too late.....back in the good old days, the Pennsy had all he or she asked for, and lots more....

 

[afigg]

This schedule would allow a person to go to either Harrisburg from the west or to Pittsburgh and be able to spend a half a day in those towns to take a same day return trip. Granted it a long day. If you just want a little more time, you can stay one night. Now you can't even do it without staying the night.

Two of your proposed train schedules serve NYP & NJ at really lousy hours. Which is a big market. The schedule should also support connections to/from the Capitol Limited. With 2 daily trains, the second train can get to PGH later than the current one does, but still has to provide a reliable connection to the CL. The eastbound trains should also allow viable connections to other trains at PHL and NYP.

If we are going to discuss schedules, it should be based on basic info about the train. NARP has posted an updated 2012 fact sheet on the Pennsylvanian. The top city pair for ridership is PHL-PGH, NYP-PGH is #3, HAR-PGH is down at #6. Scheduling day trips between PGH and HAR or Lancaster is problematic because of the trip time and only 2 trains.

IMO, a reasonable schedule with 2 daily NYP-PGH corridor trains would be to have an early morning 7AM ish departure from NYP in the #641/#661 slot and bump the current 10:52 AM NYP departure to a later Keystone slot, say 12:05 or 1:05 PM. Eastbound would stick with the 7:30 AM PGH departure to keep the CL connection, but add a mid-day departure to get to NYP by 9 ish PM.

The goal is to provide more flexibility for departure and arrival times with the trains separated by 4-5 hours on the schedule. I have not worked it out, but I think that would still allow day trips (with limited time at the destination) for various city pairs between Lancaster and Altoona or Johnstown.

BTW, the fact sheet ridership chart shows how the Pennsylvanian ridership growth has been slow but steady since CY2007 with the exception of a slight downturn in 2009.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Amtrak is a completely unknown quantity in Pittsburgh too. As is mass transit in general. There's no commuter trains or anything, so people are vaguely suspicious of the whole thing.

Isn't the station in a rather sketchy area as well? I know some friends of mine back in college were less than thrilled with it.

Not really. It's underneath one of the more expensive apartment buildings in the city. I've had no issues walking a few blocks at 0030 to pick up the Zipcar or dropping it off at 0430. The station needs a lot of love. It's a really crummy, run down, feels like the late 70s hole in the ground. There's literally no parking and its terrible for pick up and drop off.

 

[Anderson]

Remind me: What time did the Sunday Pennsylvanian leave PGH? I ask because it might be worth running the second train at a time close to that.

 

[Guest]

Correct, all you need is money. Lots of money!

Since PennDOT wants pay for zero Amtrak trains, it would be quite an uphill fight. For any hope, one would need to write a very convincing letter to PennDOT, and stapled onto that letter, a signed blank check.

 

[benale]

There are fifteen trains between Philly and Harrisburg. There is only one West of Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. A second daily train from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh would be most welcome. As many posters have said, a morning departure from Harrisburg to reach Pittsburgh by early afternoon. There is still only one train that connects with Chicago., The Capitol Limited and they don't leave Pittsburgh until Midnight, but another daily train to Pittsburgh would be great.

If I recall, #44 which ran on Sundays left Pittsburgh eight hours later than the 42. They discontinued that train two or three years ago.

 

[berkyo]

This is a little off topic, but as Pennsylvanian fairly new to train travel I would like to ask if there were ever trains going north and south in the area? I know there is a station in Altoona, and Rochester to the north and then Cumberland to the south but nothing In between.(Locals tell us that there used to be traids up and down every major valley)

I live near the NY/PA border (near Corning) and we ride up to ROC to pick up a train going west. Erie is too late boarding and Altoona is further. It's overnight to Chicago for us and that is convenient but going east is easier to drive and nothing goes south unless we got o NY or Cleveland, i Believe. I understand the Cost involved but wondered if the tracks were still there and usable. To be able to get a train south to Hburg and then west to Philly would be great!

 

[afigg]

Remind me: What time did the Sunday Pennsylvanian leave PGH? I ask because it might be worth running the second train at a time close to that.

In 2011, #44, which ran only on Sundays, departed PGH at 1:20 PM, arrived PHL at 9 PM, arrived NYP at 11 PM. The arrival time at PHL allowa connections to southbound Regionals.. However, the 11 PM NYP arrival is too late for connections to Empire service train to Albany or, of course, way too late for connections to BOS bound trains.except for an overnight trip on #66. A circa 12:30 PM departure from PGH and a tighter schedule could allow for more connection options and better hours at PHL and NYP for local commuter transit and Empire service at NYP if there are more than a few who would take that connection.

 

[tomfuller]

In answer to Berkyo's question: My first experience with a passenger train was meeting my great aunt in Corning. She rode the Phoebe Snow from Port Authority through Scranton to get to Corning.

The tracks from Williamsport up through Pennsylvania's Grand Canyon to Wellsboro Junction were ripped up decades ago.

I do remember seeing the Bicentennial train in Williamsport in 1976.

The only public transportation from Harrisburg to Corning is a bus.

I am glad that I once got to ride the Three Rivers from Chicago to Harrisburg arriving in HBG mid afternoon. The train was packed when we left Chicago.

 

[trainman74]

Amtrak is a completely unknown quantity in Pittsburgh too. As is mass transit in general.

Hmm, seems like some people know about the light rail. (When I lived in the southern suburbs of Pittsburgh, I was in walking distance of a light-rail stop.)

 

[berkyo]

Thanks Tomfuller. I took that bus once from Easton to Mansfield. Not too bad, and cheaper than driving. Maybe someday they put the trains back and have them all over. Maybe they could make them solar powered.

 

[benjibear]

At one time the PRR had a north bound route from Washington, Baltimore, York, Harrisburg. You could continue then up the Buffalo line to Sunbury, Williamsport, and further north to Port Alleghany and onto Buffallo. Then there was the Elmira Branch that went Williamsport, Canton, Troy, and to Elmira.

My times may not be perfect. I don't see this route being a great route unless there are a minimum of 2-3 trains a day between the state. I think Harrisburg could me a more central location if the frequency was increased.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Amtrak is a completely unknown quantity in Pittsburgh too. As is mass transit in general.

Hmm, seems like some people know about the light rail. (When I lived in the southern suburbs of Pittsburgh, I was in walking distance of a light-rail stop.)

The T only goes south of the city, part of an arrangement because of a cancelled interstate highway project. The tunnel under the Allegheny to serve the stadiums and casino got a lot of pushback from people. There's talk about replacing the Busway to Pitt or the 279 HOV lanes, but they might as well be asking for a solid gold unicorn.

Penn Station has a stop. I have no idea where it is, but it's kinda moot because the only thing that's happened in that station in the last five years was filming part of The Dark Knight Rises.