Weather delays

[rail_rider]

Down here in Texas when it gets very cold, the big problem is broken rails. These trigger red signals and trains have to just crawl through until it gets fixed. Not much snow down here. If there is it would paralyze operations as most of the switches are not heated. On lines like the CZ or EB travel on sometimes the switch heaters malfunction and the switches freeze up or the blowing snow just overwhelms them. And of course they suffer from broken rails also. One of the shortcomings of welded rail. It shrinks when there is extreme cold and the rail just breaks.

On my trips on the CZ I thought I had seen switch heaters and also propane tanks in the general vicinity, are these triggered by the temperature or do they have to be manually turned on? Do they run on propane or are the tanks for something else?

Yes, the tanks are for propane. Generally, the switch heaters turn on either automatically or by remote control. The tank may be turned off manually during warm weather, late spring to early fall, that is.

Generally, welded rail is set so that the steel is in tension most of the time. This is the safest way, and also easier to maintain. A pull papart due to broken rail tells the signal system you have a problem and where. A buckling due to heat tells you nothing until you are close enough to see it, by which time it is usually too late to stop.

The number of weld that fail, or many times actually in the heat affected zone in the rail near the weld and not the weld itself, is an extremely small percentage of the total welds in track. The aggravation and delays due to the occasional broken rail is proportionately a small price to pay compared to the many benefits of having welded rail in track.

Thanks for the info on switch heaters and weather related rail problems. This kind of info makes rail trips more interesting and gives a better perspective of the problems the crews face.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Down here in Texas when it gets very cold, the big problem is broken rails. These trigger red signals and trains have to just crawl through until it gets fixed. Not much snow down here. If there is it would paralyze operations as most of the switches are not heated. On lines like the CZ or EB travel on sometimes the switch heaters malfunction and the switches freeze up or the blowing snow just overwhelms them. And of course they suffer from broken rails also. One of the shortcomings of welded rail. It shrinks when there is extreme cold and the rail just breaks.

On my trips on the CZ I thought I had seen switch heaters and also propane tanks in the general vicinity, are these triggered by the temperature or do they have to be manually turned on? Do they run on propane or are the tanks for something else?

Yes, the tanks are for propane. Generally, the switch heaters turn on either automatically or by remote control. The tank may be turned off manually during warm weather, late spring to early fall, that is.

Generally, welded rail is set so that the steel is in tension most of the time. This is the safest way, and also easier to maintain. A pull papart due to broken rail tells the signal system you have a problem and where. A buckling due to heat tells you nothing until you are close enough to see it, by which time it is usually too late to stop.

The number of weld that fail, or many times actually in the heat affected zone in the rail near the weld and not the weld itself, is an extremely small percentage of the total welds in track. The aggravation and delays due to the occasional broken rail is proportionately a small price to pay compared to the many benefits of having welded rail in track.

Thanks for the info on switch heaters and weather related rail problems. This kind of info makes rail trips more interesting and gives a better perspective of the problems the crews face.

What are the propane tanks for in places like Alabama where it almost never snows?

 

[Bob Dylan]

It's not the snow, it's the cold and ice and Alabama can have both in the winter, lots of folks think it's warm South of WAS in the winter but it can get down right nasty in the SE and South fairly often, even Northern Florida has it's times when it's not warm and sunny!

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

It's not the snow, it's the cold and ice and Alabama can have both in the winter, lots of folks think it's warm South of WAS in the winter but it can get down right nasty in the SE and South fairly often, even Northern Florida has it's times when it's not warm and sunny!

But the ones I've seen aren't near switches and the ones that are don't have heaters

 

[DET63]

One of the reasons for storm related delays may be frozen or stuck switches. Without the ability of trains switching tracks, it hampers operations! I'd hate to be on the same track as another train coming the opposite way!

That can lead to a "cornfield"—or should I say "snowfield"? —meeting.

 

[darien-l]

Trains on the CZ line are still running 6-12 hours late... Why? The CZ that I'm taking tomorrow just left Chicago... 2.5 hours late. And a snowstorm is forecast for the Sierras this weekend. This might suck.

 

[the_traveler]

The CZ that I'm taking tomorrow just left Chicago... 2.5 hours late. And a snowstorm is forecast for the Sierras this weekend. This might suck.

If the previous train arrived hours late, it still takes ## hours to clean, restock and send it out! Thus, if it arrives late, it may depart on the next run late.

 

[the_traveler]

It's not the snow, it's the cold and ice and Alabama can have both in the winter, lots of folks think it's warm South of WAS in the winter but it can get down right nasty in the SE and South fairly often, even Northern Florida has it's times when it's not warm and sunny!

I know what you mean! Years ago, I flew to Houston. At DFW, it was in the 20's and Houston had low 30's and frost that night!

 

[Bigval109]

By the way, sorry for spamming the board, I'm just getting a little antsy about our trip on Saturday. I managed to convince a whole bunch of people, many of whom have never been on a train before (partly because they hear that Amtrak is "always late") to take a train with me to San Francisco. If our train gets delayed by 12 hours I'll probably never hear the end of it.

why not just enjoy each other on the train maybe have a little party in one of the bedrooms. Just relax and go with the flow. You will be all worn out before you set foot on the train.

 

[AmtrakPDX]

It's not the snow, it's the cold and ice and Alabama can have both in the winter, lots of folks think it's warm South of WAS in the winter but it can get down right nasty in the SE and South fairly often, even Northern Florida has it's times when it's not warm and sunny!

But the ones I've seen aren't near switches and the ones that are don't have heaters

I've seen them at freeze prone switches but like you, I've seen many remotely located away from switches. IIRC it always seems that there is a 'hut' nearby. I've asked the same question before and don't remember getting an answer. MY suspicion is that they may be powering fuel-cells in the 'hut' to provide power for signaling or detector operations. There seem to be many more across Canada. First thought would lead to the temperature but I think it's the remoteness of a lot of the track to other power sources.

 

[tp49]

It's not the snow, it's the cold and ice and Alabama can have both in the winter, lots of folks think it's warm South of WAS in the winter but it can get down right nasty in the SE and South fairly often, even Northern Florida has it's times when it's not warm and sunny!

While I was in college and living in Tuscaloosa during the winter it would be outright cold during the winter. Not as bad as in the northeast but still not warm. I can remember two snow storms in Tuscaloosa and an ice storm that pretty much closed the city down. I found myself entertained by the total inability of Alabama drivers to navigate through the ice.

 

[anir dendroica]

It's hard to dig out from a 7+ hour delay. Most LD trains have an overnight stay at one end (does the CZ stay in both EMY and CHI overnight?). In any case, very late arrivals leave late the same day or the next day, and certain routine maintenance doesn't get done leading to more equipment failures and thus more delays. Recovery can be slow if trains keep running, or fast if one day's train is canceled, essentially putting them 12 hours ahead instead of 12 hours behind. This could be alleviated significantly if Chicago kept a full LD trainset on reserve, ready to become the EB, CZ, SWC, TE, or CNO in the event of a major delay. But of course, in the absence of extra money and equipment, this doesn't happen.

Mark

Trains on the CZ line are still running 6-12 hours late... Why? The CZ that I'm taking tomorrow just left Chicago... 2.5 hours late. And a snowstorm is forecast for the Sierras this weekend. This might suck.

 

[AlanB]

This could be alleviated significantly if Chicago kept a full LD trainset on reserve, ready to become the EB, CZ, SWC, TE, or CNO in the event of a major delay. But of course, in the absence of extra money and equipment, this doesn't happen.

Setting aside for a moment the idea that just having an entire trainset sitting around doing nothing is extremely wastful as you're still paying the bills for that equipment, yet it's not earning any money, even if you do have a spare trainset it will help some of the time.

Like right now with the current examples, you don't have just one line that got slammed by the snow. Both the CZ and the EB got hit. So even with that wasteful set sitting in Chicago, you can only fix one problem, not both. Additionally does one keep a set that will only adequately replace the CZ on standby? Or does one place a set that would fully fullfill the EB's needs? Something that wastes even more precious equipment.

Finally of course this only works best if the initial delay happens to a Chicago bound train. If the train is headed outbound from Chicago, then it can be 2 to 3 days before you can bring the spare set into play and reduce the delays.

 

[anir dendroica]

I think the worst EB delay this time was about 7 hours - not enough to warrant dispatching a spare trainset. But now we have a CZ #6 (10) running 15 hours late out of Denver. I suspect that will force either a westbound cancellation tomorrow or a very late departure. It is usually only one train at a time hit with this bad of a delay, and it seems that the usual solution is to cancel a train. Now keeping one extra trainset (with enough cars to make a consist for any given LD train) would add what, maybe ~0.5% to Amtrak's total expenses? Avoiding train cancellations during busy travel periods should more than offset that, I would think. It wouldn't even have to be a dedicated trainset. When cars on LD trains have minor problems (broken toilets, electrical issues, etc.), they could be switched out with cars from the "spare". This would provide extra time to fix these problems in Chicago and perform more thorough maintenance, while also providing a backup trainset in case of a major delay/derailment.

Say what you will about waste, but I am of the opinion that it is a bad idea to operate a system with no spare capacity.

Mark

This could be alleviated significantly if Chicago kept a full LD trainset on reserve, ready to become the EB, CZ, SWC, TE, or CNO in the event of a major delay. But of course, in the absence of extra money and equipment, this doesn't happen.

Setting aside for a moment the idea that just having an entire trainset sitting around doing nothing is extremely wastful as you're still paying the bills for that equipment, yet it's not earning any money, even if you do have a spare trainset it will help some of the time.

Like right now with the current examples, you don't have just one line that got slammed by the snow. Both the CZ and the EB got hit. So even with that wasteful set sitting in Chicago, you can only fix one problem, not both. Additionally does one keep a set that will only adequately replace the CZ on standby? Or does one place a set that would fully fullfill the EB's needs? Something that wastes even more precious equipment.

Finally of course this only works best if the initial delay happens to a Chicago bound train. If the train is headed outbound from Chicago, then it can be 2 to 3 days before you can bring the spare set into play and reduce the delays.

 

[AlanB]

Well I would never question the wisdom of having some spare cars sitting around at the various end points. In fact each terminus should have at least 1 spare for each type of car used. I just question having an entire trainset sitting around. Again, if we assumed the worst case scenario for the EB, that would mean having 1 Trans/Dorm, 3 sleepers, 1 diner, 1 sightseer lounge, and 4 to 5 coaches all just sitting around waiting for the 2 or 3 times a year that they might actually see service.

That I can't condone. Especially since you still need the "regular" spare cars sitting around too.

 

[jmbgeg]

The Empire Builder delays of the past two weeks continue to be frequent and in some cases, chronic. It has caused me to add a day to an eastbound vacation to Florida just in case the EB misconnects with the CL in CHI outbound. The delays seem to originate in central or eastern Montana to North Dakota. Often 1-2 hour delays can be made up in the flatlands but that does not seem to be happening. The delays are not being made up in many cases and in others, get longer as the trip progresses. At least (cross my fingers for the next month given booked trips) we have not seen cancellations like in 2008.