VIA upgrading business class
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Acela150
Super Buff
While Amtrak cuts... It's partner to the north expands.. Only in America..
I guess that's one way of putting it, if you ignore all the service VIA has cut in the past couple of years.
I totaly agree that Amtrak needs to Standardize and enhance their Business Class Service considering the prices that are now being charged! The NEC and Acela aren't the only ones, the Cascades, California and River Runner and the Down easter Routes are Excellent and could serve as a model for Amtrak!
NS VIA Fan
Conductor
Remember…Business Class on VIA is not the same as Business Class on Amtrak. This is VIA's “First Class” product and comparable to Acela First Class on Amtrak...... A hot meal, complementary beer, wine and liquor and access to the Panorama Lounges. Just about every corridor train operating has at least one Business (First Class) car and the busier runs…two first class cars.
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NS VIA Fan
Conductor
VIA has cut very little: one round trip per week on the Canadian in the off-season and three round trips per week on the Ocean. Also cut were little used runs between London and Sarnia, Toronto and Niagara Falls along with a couple of evening corridor runs. Elsewhere in the corridor where people are actually riding trains……services has been expanded.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
I call that a lot of cuts for the transit dependant. Don't you?
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jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
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AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Well, hey, a flower in the dining car and free cranberry juice in sleeper has always been way more important than running more trains.
:lol:neroden
Engineer
The London and Sarnia passengers were *really* angry about the cuts; they eliminated day-tripping and forced a bunch of people to drive
The Ocean was apparently routinely quite busy west of Moncton, but it was cut to 3-a-week along its entire length to destroy the traffic base.
In exchange for this, I think you got one more train per day on the Montreal-Toronto section. Not exactly a 1-for-1 replacement.
But it's nice that VIA is trying to improve their business class offering. On the few trains which have it.
The Ocean was apparently routinely quite busy west of Moncton, but it was cut to 3-a-week along its entire length to destroy the traffic base.
In exchange for this, I think you got one more train per day on the Montreal-Toronto section. Not exactly a 1-for-1 replacement.
But it's nice that VIA is trying to improve their business class offering. On the few trains which have it.
NS VIA Fan
Conductor
In the 12 years prior to the cut to tri-weekly service, that Ocean traffic base had eroded from 289,500 passengers/year to 127,000.....a very significant drop.
Trains were also added between Montreal and Quebec City and between Montreal and Ottawa including a thru Quebec City to Ottawa run that hadn’t existed for a number of years. Also added was a Toronto-Ottawa Express run.
I don’t know where you come up with the comment “on the “few” trains that have it”…….nearly every corridor train operating (some weekend exceptions)……offers a business (first class) car besides coach and the busier runs have two cars.
neroden
Engineer
All I meant is that VIA Rail's "corridor service" doesn't consist of very many trains, period. VIA Rail has the *worst* timetables I have *ever seen*, which actually makes it hard to tell how many trains they're running on any given day of the week, but I can't call it a lot.
Looking at it again, I think it's quite astonishing that under Laliberte trains were added from Montreal to Quebec City and to Ottawa, and the "remote services" from *Montreal* were maintained, and even the Gaspe service was kept on life support, but everything outside Quebec was slashed. I have to suspect Laliberte of having a provincial bias. He's gone now, maybe things will get more rational.
The reports on the Ocean were that Moncton to Halifax traffic had really collapsed, but Moncton-west traffic was still lively. I think it is evident what a rational response to this might be, and Laliberte's response wasn't that.
Looking at it again, I think it's quite astonishing that under Laliberte trains were added from Montreal to Quebec City and to Ottawa, and the "remote services" from *Montreal* were maintained, and even the Gaspe service was kept on life support, but everything outside Quebec was slashed. I have to suspect Laliberte of having a provincial bias. He's gone now, maybe things will get more rational.
The reports on the Ocean were that Moncton to Halifax traffic had really collapsed, but Moncton-west traffic was still lively. I think it is evident what a rational response to this might be, and Laliberte's response wasn't that.
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
Bash VIA all you want but I think we can all agree that Amtrak's "business class" is a vague and often irrelevant offering on many if not most trains.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Amtraks Bussiness class is a extra cost service that provides extra revenue to amtrak for people who don't want to tell people they took coach.
NS VIA Fan
Conductor
Canada’s population is 1/10 th that of the US so it’s logical the numbers of trains operated would be less than that operated by Amtrak. But still…..on a per capita basis, VIA carries slightly more passengers per year than does Amtrak.
[SIZE=11pt]Canada has a total population of about 35 million. In 2012 VIA carried 3.9 million passengers or slightly more than 10% of the population.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The US has a population of about 317 million. Amtrak carried 31.6 million passengers last year so about 10% of the population.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Key corridor populations are Toronto 5.4 million, Montreal 3.7m, Ottawa 1.0m and Quebec City 0.7m. It’s 500 km from Toronto to Montreal with several cities between but it would probably still be considered rural compared to the US…… and nowhere near the population density to maintain a frequency like Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]There’s 9 trains a day each way on the Toronto-Kingston-Ottawa-Montreal route.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Montreal-Ottawa has 7/day each way[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Montreal-Quebec City has 5/day each way[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]On the Windsor(Detroit) to Toronto route: Four trains a day each way plus an additional 3 each way from the mid-point city of London (on two routes).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Compare this to what Amtrak offers in a very similar market just over the river in Detroit where there’s three trains to Chicago plus an additional one from Battle Creek..…..or what’s offered in the Chicago-St. Louis or Chicago-Milwaukee corridors. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]And getting back to the original topic “Business Class” which is actually “First Class” on VIA……nearly everyone of the above trains offers this amenity. Something I don’t believe Amtrak does not other than on the Acela Express in the NEC only. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The number of weekday trains is pretty consistent but weekend service varies (and no different than on Amtrak)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]So is there any reason to bash VIA because you don’t like their timetable format? I I just looked-up the following VIA schedules and had no problem seeing the above frequencies of service. [/SIZE]
http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/schedules/winter2014/Timetable2014_HIVER_14-15.pdf
.....and the following for additional Toronto-Ottawa trains
http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/schedules/winter2014/Timetable2014_HIVER_16-17.pdf
http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/schedules/winter2014/Timetable2014_HIVER_08-09.pdf
http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/schedules/winter2014/Timetable2014_HIVER_04-05_rev2.pdf
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Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
I'd bet mortgage sized money that Amtrak doesn't carry anywhere near 10% of the population. But, more to the point, comparing your passenger rail system to that of the US would seem like a great way to make the current situation look better in the short term without improving anything in the long run. When picking a target to emulate or rival there would seem to be better options out there.
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NS VIA Fan
Conductor
And the same can be said of VIA.......that percentage of passengers carried would be consentrated in the Corridors. As much as I like travelling on VIA, unless I have the time, I'm on that 2 hr flight to Toronto vs: 27 hrs + on the Ocean and connecting train from Toronto.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Listen, bro, let me give you some advice, VIA is a badly managed skeletal system. Until you are willing to recognize that, you will not be in a position to save it or improve it. Amtrak is exactly the same thing, a badly managed skeletal system. I'm not necessarily hating on Boardman, but the politics and long term management surrounding both systems have rendered them both underfunded, under serving, and irrelevant. I ropecognize this and us am working at solving the problem. Until you can get your head out of the clouds, you can't.
neroden
Engineer
I sure had trouble figuring it out from those schedules.
The schedule varies wildly from one day of the week to the next. And not just on weekends, either. Furthermore, the full schedule between any two cities *isn't in a single timetable*.
Given how few trains per day there are, and how few stops there are, it would be quite straightforward to publish a complete "Corridor Timetable" featuring all the trains. I don't know why they can't copy Amtrak's timetable format. VIA's timetable format is *awful*.
Maybe I'll assemble a readable VIA timetable for the hell of it.
---
...I have assembled such a table for the westbound corridor operations. (Four separate tables: M-Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun.) Not sure what to do with it. It took long enough to do that I'm not sure I'm going to assemble the eastbound schedule.
One thing which pops out is the *exceptional* number of different stopping patterns used by VIA between Toronto and Montreal. A local / express arrangement would be far more comprehensible. (The existing arrangement also makes several small-town to small-town trips impossible, and it's unclear why. A local/express arrangement would make these trips possible.)
Anyway, after assembling the schedule, it's pretty odd. For instance, on Sundays, there is one late-morning trip from Montreal to Toronto and six afternoon/evening trips. On weekdays, the situation makes a little more sense, with two early morning trips.
Saturday service is very thin compared to the rest of the week. There are 3/day from Quebec to Montreal, 4/day from Montreal to Toronto, 2/day from Montreal to Ottawa, and 4/day from Ottawa to Toronto.
So that answers my question about VIA frequncies: the base level for Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal is 4/day. (Kingston-Toronto is 8/day.)
There are a startling number of tight misconnects. The train from Kingston arrives in Toronto five minutes after the Maple Leaf departs, which is less than desirable timing.
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NS VIA Fan
Conductor
And I wonder how much longer “timetable format” will even be an issue?
I had a conversation with the agent when I was in to pick up the new timetable after the last schedule change. He showed me the big box of the previous ones going back to recycle and wondered how long VIA was even going to continue to publish one…….said very few people even ask for them anymore.
There’re just not in much demand……most have now entered the origin and destination on their Smartphone App or I-Pad and have all the times and connections they need instantly on the relevant day.
Even the dinosaurs probably call the 800 number for info without pondering a timetable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It must be at least 10 years since I last swept the airport ticket counters after a schedule change for the latest paper timetables. They’re just not available anymore except that downloadable .PDF!
I had a conversation with the agent when I was in to pick up the new timetable after the last schedule change. He showed me the big box of the previous ones going back to recycle and wondered how long VIA was even going to continue to publish one…….said very few people even ask for them anymore.
There’re just not in much demand……most have now entered the origin and destination on their Smartphone App or I-Pad and have all the times and connections they need instantly on the relevant day.
Even the dinosaurs probably call the 800 number for info without pondering a timetable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It must be at least 10 years since I last swept the airport ticket counters after a schedule change for the latest paper timetables. They’re just not available anymore except that downloadable .PDF!
neroden
Engineer
Timetables are the only way to figure out what services are available. "Plug in to the website" or "call and ask" is NO substitute. (Of course it's fine to have them only as printable PDFs. That's why people aren't asking for paper timetables.)
Greyhound management is too moronically stupid to have figured out the need for timetables, and hides its timetables somewhere in the employee section of the website -- but Amtrak recognizes the importance of having timetables and maps. One would hope that VIA management is smarter than Greyhound management, but based on past evidence, they're probably stupider.
Greyhound management is too moronically stupid to have figured out the need for timetables, and hides its timetables somewhere in the employee section of the website -- but Amtrak recognizes the importance of having timetables and maps. One would hope that VIA management is smarter than Greyhound management, but based on past evidence, they're probably stupider.
