Very busy trip from SOL to TUS

[pldenc44]

I arrived in Tucson today from Solana Beach, CA in north San Diego county. The Surfliner had 10 cars instead of the usual 6 due to the horse races at Del Mar. It was packed! I had to walk through about three cars before I could find a single seat to sit down. The train had to "stop twice" at several stations to load/unload all the cars.

Then I transferred to another SOLD OUT Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle. There were no empty seats to be found on this whole train... I think 8-10 cars but didn't get an accurate count. I was kinda hoping the seat next to me would be empty so I could stretch out (I'm 6-6 tall), but no luck. The guy was cool to talk to though.

So I have to ask... is this normal?? My first non-commuter train ride was jam-packed the whole way on both connections! Certainly a good sign for passenger rail, but not sure if its sustainable.

By the way, the ticket was $114. Half the price of airline tickets 1 week in advance, but about the same as an airline fair booked three weeks in advance. The flight is about 1 hour, the whole train trip was 12 hours. Overall, a positive experience.

 

[zephyr17]

I arrived in Tucson today from Solana Beach, CA in north San Diego county. The Surfliner had 10 cars instead of the usual 6 due to the horse races at Del Mar. It was packed! I had to walk through about three cars before I could find a single seat to sit down. The train had to "stop twice" at several stations to load/unload all the cars.

Then I transferred to another SOLD OUT Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle. There were no empty seats to be found on this whole train... I think 8-10 cars but didn't get an accurate count. I was kinda hoping the seat next to me would be empty so I could stretch out (I'm 6-6 tall), but no luck. The guy was cool to talk to though.

So I have to ask... is this normal?? My first non-commuter train ride was jam-packed the whole way on both connections! Certainly a good sign for passenger rail, but not sure if its sustainable.

By the way, the ticket was $114. Half the price of airline tickets 1 week in advance, but about the same as an airline fair booked three weeks in advance. The flight is about 1 hour, the whole train trip was 12 hours. Overall, a positive experience.

Mid summer, yes that is normal on LD trains and has been for years. There is myth that the trains run empty, and now you see it is a myth.

 

[PaulM]

I recently returned from a RT on the CZ from Mount Pleasant to DEN; and it was sold out - coach and sleepers - both ways.

Incidentally, although the web site said it was sold out, what it meant was that the space that could be sold on the web site was sold out. The H room in our sleeper was being used for baggage overflow. If it is correct that the H room is opened to the general public at some point, it might be a way to book space on a "sold out" train.

 

[PaulM]

The topic of sold out trains might be the right place to complain about dining car staffing, not about the staff themselves, but the work schedulers or bean counters, as the case may be. As mentioned above, I recently went RT on the CZ from Mount Pleasant to DEN; and it was sold out - coach and sleepers - both ways. In addition to the third sleeper, the westbound train had an extra (4th coach).

Upon boarding at MTP around 6:00PM westbound, I was given a 6:50 diner reservation; usually we are told to go right to the diner. Not a problem. After announcing the normal dinner seatings, from around 9:00 to 9:30 the LSA entertained a wait list, probably for coach passenger. It was about 10:00 before the final person was called.

As we boarded eastbound #6 in DEN, which had arrived a few minutes early (thanks UP), we were given a slip of paper with a "group 2" reservation for dinner . The SCA explained that we were given a group number rather than a time because they never know when the train will arrive. This made sense to me - for about 10 seconds - before it began to sound phony. After all, we didn't make dinner reservations when we booked the trip; and it only takes a second or two to write a time on a slip of paper.

It became obvious that it had a more sinister explanation when they called for 7:10, 7:30, .... and 9:00 reservations before getting to group 1. If the piece of paper had 9:00 or 9:30 written on it, the SCA would have to deal with a bunch of irate Denver passengers. We finally were served about 10:00. This time there was no waiting list; presumably coach passenger didn't get to eat in the diner.

The next morning I got up at 7:00AM (6:00AM Denver time) to get on the breakfast waiting list at the first call. Still I wasn't sure we would be served before arriving at our 9:54 MTP destination. As it was we made it just in time.

Before the apologists jump on board, I will add that at no point was there less then 6 empty tables, and often several more. It's obvious that the diner was not being used to its capacity. The 3 waiters (including an active LSA) were doing a good job; so maybe the bottleneck was in the kitchen. I also got the impression that if the kitchen were fully staffed, then the bottleneck would have been upstairs.

I don't recall this type of situation back in the days of the Desert Wind and Pioneer when the train between CHI and SLC was much longer than the ones I was on. I would find it hard to believe that additional full sleepers or coaches would hurt Amtrak's bottom line. But as several people have mentioned in the past, at some point you run into problems with the diner. And if you don't use the diner to its capacity, that point is sooner rather than latter. What's the point of having a reservation system, if you can't staff the train based on it?

 

[zephyr17]

The topic of sold out trains might be the right place to complain about dining car staffing, not about the staff themselves, but the work schedulers or bean counters, as the case may be. As mentioned above, I recently went RT on the CZ from Mount Pleasant to DEN; and it was sold out - coach and sleepers - both ways. In addition to the third sleeper, the westbound train had an extra (4th coach).

Upon boarding at MTP around 6:00PM westbound, I was given a 6:50 diner reservation; usually we are told to go right to the diner. Not a problem. After announcing the normal dinner seatings, from around 9:00 to 9:30 the LSA entertained a wait list, probably for coach passenger. It was about 10:00 before the final person was called.

As we boarded eastbound #6 in DEN, which had arrived a few minutes early (thanks UP), we were given a slip of paper with a "group 2" reservation for dinner . The SCA explained that we were given a group number rather than a time because they never know when the train will arrive. This made sense to me - for about 10 seconds - before it began to sound phony. After all, we didn't make dinner reservations when we booked the trip; and it only takes a second or two to write a time on a slip of paper.

It became obvious that it had a more sinister explanation when they called for 7:10, 7:30, .... and 9:00 reservations before getting to group 1. If the piece of paper had 9:00 or 9:30 written on it, the SCA would have to deal with a bunch of irate Denver passengers. We finally were served about 10:00. This time there was no waiting list; presumably coach passenger didn't get to eat in the diner.

The next morning I got up at 7:00AM (6:00AM Denver time) to get on the breakfast waiting list at the first call. Still I wasn't sure we would be served before arriving at our 9:54 MTP destination. As it was we made it just in time.

Before the apologists jump on board, I will add that at no point was there less then 6 empty tables, and often several more. It's obvious that the diner was not being used to its capacity. The 3 waiters (including an active LSA) were doing a good job; so maybe the bottleneck was in the kitchen. I also got the impression that if the kitchen were fully staffed, then the bottleneck would have been upstairs.

I don't recall this type of situation back in the days of the Desert Wind and Pioneer when the train between CHI and SLC was much longer than the ones I was on. I would find it hard to believe that additional full sleepers or coaches would hurt Amtrak's bottom line. But as several people have mentioned in the past, at some point you run into problems with the diner. And if you don't use the diner to its capacity, that point is sooner rather than latter. What's the point of having a reservation system, if you can't staff the train based on it?

They have been short staffing the diners ever since the Simplified Dining Service and don't have the staff to handle all the tables. In the Pioneer/Desert Wind days, they'd seat the whole diner 1/2 at a time (one side would be ordering, the other side eating. They the side that was eating would finish up and they'd clean up and seat the next batch on that side.). Now they usually are not staffed to run a whole side at a time. The only exception seems to be the Builder.

It is somewhat better now than it was when they first introduced it. They at least have both gotten better at it and they increased the staff a bit based on train occupancy. When they first did it, it was 1 cook and 2 waiters (including the LSA) for all trains, IIRC. It was really, really bad for awhile.

Go tell Rep. Mica. He is responsible for a lot of the dining service nuttiness.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

And now rep. Mica has got his way The House of Representatives Committee on Transportation and

Infrastructure is to hold a hearing on Amtrak Food and Beverage

services on Thursday, August 2. lets see if mica gets his way and dining cars go bye bye. replaced with cafe cars and then ridership declines sharply and that makes it easier to kill amtrak.

 

[Paulus]

And now rep. Mica has got his way The House of Representatives Committee on Transportation and

Infrastructure is to hold a hearing on Amtrak Food and Beverage

services on Thursday, August 2. lets see if mica gets his way and dining cars go bye bye. replaced with cafe cars and then ridership declines sharply and that makes it easier to kill amtrak.

If Amtrak still hasn't figured out how to at least account for F&B costs in the past seven years, it'll be a well deserved axing.

As the briefing memo notes, Amtrak's inability to break even on F&B has led it to be in violation of the law and technically prohibited from providing it for the past 30 years. I think 30 years of non-compliance is worthy of axing, but also a sign that it won't be. At "worst" Amtrak gets a congressional mandate to improve in line with what states have shown to be best practices.

For those interested in watching the meeting or reading testimony, here's the link: http://transportation.house.gov/hearings/hearingdetail.aspx?newsid=1691

 

[jphjaxfl]

And now rep. Mica has got his way The House of Representatives Committee on Transportation and

Infrastructure is to hold a hearing on Amtrak Food and Beverage

services on Thursday, August 2. lets see if mica gets his way and dining cars go bye bye. replaced with cafe cars and then ridership declines sharply and that makes it easier to kill amtrak.

If Amtrak still hasn't figured out how to at least account for F&B costs in the past seven years, it'll be a well deserved axing.

As the briefing memo notes, Amtrak's inability to break even on F&B has led it to be in violation of the law and technically prohibited from providing it for the past 30 years. I think 30 years of non-compliance is worthy of axing, but also a sign that it won't be. At "worst" Amtrak gets a congressional mandate to improve in line with what states have shown to be best practices.

For those interested in watching the meeting or reading testimony, here's the link: http://transportation.house.gov/hearings/hearingdetail.aspx?newsid=1691

Requiring Amtrak to break even on food and beverages is ridiculous. The private railroads even in the peak years of the 1920s did not make a profit on Dining Cars, but they were considered a necessity rather than the 19th century practice of stopping trains at "dining houses" so passengers could eat. I have been an Amtrak passenger since Day 1, May 1, 1971. I have seen Amtrak make several attempts to lower the cost of food service. They always result in loss of passengers so even though they may have lowered the food service costs, there was an overall net loss because they have driven away passengers who will never return. Mica is clueless about long distance trains. He is close to air and highway lobbies. If Dining Service on long distance goes away, no one is going to pay Sleeping Car prices for a snack bar. Except for rail fans, those who use Sleeping Cars to travel will likely fly first class. This helps the Airline industry. Mica knows where his bread is buttered.

 

[dlagrua]

Requiring Amtrak to break even on food and beverages is ridiculous. The private railroads even in the peak years of the 1920s did not make a profit on Dining Cars, but they were considered a necessity rather than the 19th century practice of stopping trains at "dining houses" so passengers could eat. I have been an Amtrak passenger since Day 1, May 1, 1971. I have seen Amtrak make several attempts to lower the cost of food service. They always result in loss of passengers so even though they may have lowered the food service costs, there was an overall net loss because they have driven away passengers who will never return. Mica is clueless about long distance trains. He is close to air and highway lobbies. If Dining Service on long distance goes away, no one is going to pay Sleeping Car prices for a snack bar. Except for rail fans, those who use Sleeping Cars to travel will likely fly first class. This helps the Airline industry. Mica knows where his bread is buttered.

Correct analysis. When has any railroad ever turned a profit on dining car service? The answer is never. Dining cars were put there simply to save time and to help bookings for the long distance trains. If they are expecting passengers to eat burgers and hot dogs on the CZ, EB or other overnight routes; this will result in lower bookings and less revenue. Today passengers pay a hefty price for sleeping car service and part of the reason is that they expect some kind of sit down dinner. Eliminate the dining car service and you eliminate passengers.

I can appreciate that people want a more efficient national transportation system but why is it that some politicans always look to Amtrak as the problem? Its probably because the politicans in districts and states not served by Amtrak feel that their constituents are not getting anything out of it. This makes a good argument for more train service not less.

 

[henryj]

We always see this blanket statement about dining car losses. It wasn't always that way. In my TRA bulletin on the Texas Special it states that the last year dining car revenues exceeded expenses was 1945. So they did not always lose money. Food and beverage costs have always been scrutinized by transportation companies. The airlines have practically eliminated food service except on the longest flights. When I flew to Frankfurt Germany a few years ago I was surprised they still had full meal service on the Lufthansa flight. Same for my flight to New Zealand. But these flights were 10 and 14 hours. It's a shame that Congress always has to nudge Amtrak to make any kind of change. Most European trains I rode simply had a bistro car with one attendant serving sandwiches and drinks. The train between Warsaw and Berlin actually had a diner. Most local trains had nothing at all and only a driver and conductor. Amtrak perhaps overstaffs many of it's trains. Of course the true LD trains are the exception. However, when I rode these same railroad operated LD trains in the 1960's there were no coach attendants or on board staff other than the dining car. Only sleepers had porters. The conductor or brakeman took care of any other chores. Few coach passengers ate in the diners as they were too expensive.

 

[MikefromCrete]

We always see this blanket statement about dining car losses. It wasn't always that way. In my TRA bulletin on the Texas Special it states that the last year dining car revenues exceeded expenses was 1945. So they did not always lose money. Food and beverage costs have always been scrutinized by transportation companies. The airlines have practically eliminated food service except on the longest flights. When I flew to Frankfurt Germany a few years ago I was surprised they still had full meal service on the Lufthansa flight. Same for my flight to New Zealand. But these flights were 10 and 14 hours. It's a shame that Congress always has to nudge Amtrak to make any kind of change. Most European trains I rode simply had a bistro car with one attendant serving sandwiches and drinks. The train between Warsaw and Berlin actually had a diner. Most local trains had nothing at all and only a driver and conductor. Amtrak perhaps overstaffs many of it's trains. Of course the true LD trains are the exception. However, when I rode these same railroad operated LD trains in the 1960's there were no coach attendants or on board staff other than the dining car. Only sleepers had porters. The conductor or brakeman took care of any other chores. Few coach passengers ate in the diners as they were too expensive.

So, two coach attendants are "overstaffing." Dining car crews were always much larger on the privately-operated trains then on today's Amtrak. Lounge cars, the forerunners of today's snack bar cars always had an attendant. Sleeper cars, which were run by the Pullman Co., had their own Pullman conductor. And coach attendants were not unknown, especially on the long haul Western routes.

The railroads ran food services as loss leaders, in many cases to impress their big freight shippers who were among their first class customers before the days of jet airplanes.

Perhaps there are ways to nudge food services to profitability, but Mica is no friend of the passenger train and naming the hearing "Mismanagement of Food Services" sort of takes the hearing away from any kind of impartial study of the matter.

 

[henryj]

So, two coach attendants are "overstaffing." Dining car crews were always much larger on the privately-operated trains then on today's Amtrak. Lounge cars, the forerunners of today's snack bar cars always had an attendant. Sleeper cars, which were run by the Pullman Co., had their own Pullman conductor. And coach attendants were not unknown, especially on the long haul Western routes.

The railroads ran food services as loss leaders, in many cases to impress their big freight shippers who were among their first class customers before the days of jet airplanes.

Perhaps there are ways to nudge food services to profitability, but Mica is no friend of the passenger train and naming the hearing "Mismanagement of Food Services" sort of takes the hearing away from any kind of impartial study of the matter.

By far the largest costs of operating any of these train is labor, and the longer the distance and the slower it runs the higher the costs. Yes, I believe Amtrak overstaffs it's trains. Obviously a hearing titled "Mismanagement of Food Services" is a set up. Mica should be ashamed.

If you look at the LD trains the largest costs are Labor, Maintenance, Fuel and Rent and of course 'bloated overhead'. The net costs of food services is miniscule by comparison. So Mica's hearing is a 'red herring'.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

These Sold Out trains are exaclty why Amtrak needs more equipment! I have been very interested in equipment problems for a long time. We need more funding!

Somebody should have a March for Amtrak Funding or something like that in WAS!

 

[Paulus]

It's only a set up if there isn't mismanagement. Given that there is a past history of mismanagement, it's entirely appropriate.

 

[AlanB]

[admin hat off]Trust me, Chairman Mica couldn't do any better than current Amtrak management at controlling things. Heck, he can't even control spending in Congress. He makes a lot of noise, but accomplishes little IMHO.

As for mismanagement, had Congress not nickled and dimed Amtrak to death, half of the problems probably could have been solved with new technology that Amtrak cannot afford to buy. It's all big show for those who vote for him, nothing more.[/admin hat on]

As I've noted before, Amtrak's subsidy accounts for 0.04% of the Federal budget. Fixing the food service losses would account for about 15% of that 0.04% at most. Chairman Mica is busy counting pennies, while Congress continues to fling $10,000 bills out the window without care!

 

[guest]

[admin hat off]Trust me, Chairman Mica couldn't do any better than current Amtrak management at controlling things. Heck, he can't even control spending in Congress. He makes a lot of noise, but accomplishes little IMHO.

As for mismanagement, had Congress not nickled and dimed Amtrak to death, half of the problems probably could have been solved with new technology that Amtrak cannot afford to buy. It's all big show for those who vote for him, nothing more.[/admin hat on]

As I've noted before, Amtrak's subsidy accounts for 0.04% of the Federal budget. Fixing the food service losses would account for about 15% of that 0.04% at most. Chairman Mica is busy counting pennies, while Congress continues to fling $10,000 bills out the window without care!

Boy are you spot-on for this one!

The congressional bloviators are a pitiful bunch, yet dangerous because of their power of the purse. Mica's witchhunt against Amtrak should be called out for what it is by at least a few House representatives with a scintilla of spine left in their bodies.

 

[PaulM]

It is somewhat better now than it was when they first introduced it. They at least have both gotten better at it and they increased the staff a bit based on train occupancy.

Yes, I had heard this before. But I guess I was just reporting that it only goes so far.

Go tell Rep. Mica. He is responsible for a lot of the dining service nuttiness.

Makes me wish I hadn't said anything.

 

[PaulM]

At "worst" Amtrak gets a congressional mandate to improve in line with what states have shown to be best practices.

Could you expound on this a bit. Which congressmen and which states and which best practices have shown to improve long distance train food service? What will be the penalty to congressmen and states if their best practices turn out to just egg head theory?

 

[George Harris]

As the briefing memo notes, Amtrak's inability to break even on F&B has led it to be in violation of the law and technically prohibited from providing it for the past 30 years. I think 30 years of non-compliance is worthy of axing, but also a sign that it won't be. At "worst" Amtrak gets a congressional mandate to improve in line with what states have shown to be best practices.
For those interested in watching the meeting or reading testimony, here's the link: http://transportation.house.gov/hearings/hearingdetail.aspx?newsid=1691

Let's see: Congress gives Amtrak an essentially impossible mandate, and then come back and charges them with violation of the law.

Many of the actions and posturing of various people in congress concerning Amtrak have simply been fiction. There are many more novels worth reading than Mica's hearings.

 

[Nathanael]

It's only a set up if there isn't mismanagement. Given that there is a past history of mismanagement, it's entirely appropriate.

It's a setup. Given that the past "history of mismanagement" is actually a past history of "Congressional meddling" -- mismanagement by Congressional order -- it's a setup.