Upgrades to one, down grades to the rest?

[AlanB]

most seem to realize that their obligation is to the passenger not the ceo

Actually the crew have an obligation to the CEO, management in general, and the passengers.

i just don't agree with you on this one alan. a good manager understands workers and their needs. he/she gives workers opportunites to show off and teach their strengths and gives opportunites to brush up in weak areas. the obligation of a worker is to do a good job not spout the company line.

First, I didn't say that they had an obligation to spout the company line. I said that they have an obligation to the CEO and management. That obligation is to do their job.

Second, they do however have an obligation not to spout the company's dirty laundry, unless that laundry is something that can hurt people or that something is seriously ripping off the people either directly or indirectly. Just talking trash to people because you don't like something is not an obligation that any employee owes to his/her customer.

Especially because he/she could be walking said customer right out the door and eventually depriving the employee of his/her job.

Third you must remember that the employee may well be trying to protect his/her job by getting one riled up, so as to get things to change back to the way they were. That doesn't necessarily mean that's the best thing for the company.

 

[Larry H.]

Very interesting Allen as usual. I don't really disagree with you on much of any of that. What I do say and most people seem to believe it, is that the whole concept of the trains making money or breaking even is flawed. We keep trying to somehow defend a policy that was fatal to passenger service in the first place. Rail service all over the world seems to need government subsidies to operate. Were fooling ourselves if we think they are going too ever pay for them selves. So this cut, cut, cut, idea in order to be profitable is just driving the system into the ground. Think of all the extra revenue that is being generated by higher gas taxes! A good deal of that ought to be aimed at improving and providing reasonable service to more parts of the country. I have no doubt that if the kind of suggestions such as the NARP has about interconnected cities were ever followed through that ridership would soar. There is a great demand for other travel options now. Its not the time to play the same old, we can't do it, games.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Is our travel or our money here in the midwest less deserving than those on the West or East coast?

YES!! :lol:

Very interesting discussion, and thanks for all views.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I would say that in some cases, Amtrak doesn't want to do the downgrading they are doing. Take the LSLs new "Diner Lite". The "Diner Lite" is not a bad car, and it makes a great deal of sense for certain runs. The Cardinal, being, as it is, more of a combination of several short distance trains that happen to run together as through cars (I mean this in the sense of its very high turn over rate), really couldn't support a Heritage diner and Amfleet lounge. A combined car serving both purposes makes sense.

They would also make a lot of sense on such long-distance day trains as the Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Palmetto, Pennsylvanian, Vermonter, and Carolinian. Amtrak would probably enjoy running those cars on those trains, because they'd probably increase revenue more than enough to offset the cost of the additional staff member required to run at-table service. On the LSL, however, Amtrak would probably rather offer a full Diner. Why? Because it costs very little extra, if anything, to offer one, (on the LSL they need two servers even in the Diner Lite) and passengers highly prefer them. If coach passengers eat in one, the prices are often slightly higher and bring in more revenue. But the Heritage Diners are failing pretty bad. And they don't have money for new diners.

The City Of New Orleans could run inefficiently with 2 P42s, a baggage, a Transition Sleeper, a Sleeper, a Diner, a Lounge, and 2 coaches (A total of 2 engines and 7 cars) or efficiently with 1 P42, A trans-sleeper, a sleeper, a CCC, a Coach-Baggage, and a Coach. Both trains offer 3.5 revenue cars. One requires a lot more fuel to move and a lot more staff. 3.5/7 or 3.5/5?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

First, one thing that should be noted here Larry is that the CS hasn't just been given the PPC's back as a gift. As noted in another topic, Amtrak has now come up with a plan that they at least hope will make at least some money off these cars. If that doesn't materialize, then these cars may vanish into history in a year or two. My point of course being that Amtrak took away cars from the City because they were failing to produce revenue, and in fact the PPC's were almost eliminated totally about a year ago. In fact, while I don't know that a public announcement was made, I do recall seeing a post on another railfan board, containing an internal Amtrak communication that basically spelled out the end for both the kiddie cars and the PPC's. Obviously the decision was reversed, no doubt in part because of pressure from fans, but also because someone at Amtrak came up with a plan to at least try to turn the car into a revenue center.
Now I note that in the other topic on this board, that some were upset that they were going to have to pay for certain things. At least and until enough of the public stands on the toes of our Congressional members to get them to reverse the ill conceived rule in the Amtrak funding bill that requires Amtrak to cut the nearly $200 Million that Amtrak was loosing on food service each year, we are going to continue to see things like the CCC and having to pay for things in the PPC. I still disagree with the SDS program, as I continue to believe that while Amtrak has cut expenses in the dining car, they also cut revenue. Therefore there was no overall net change in the losses for the dining cars.

I think from a long term view perspective, the really important thing is that Amtrak comes up with ways to prevent the equipment from getting scrapped (assuming it's quality rolling stock that's worth keeping in the long run). If Congress decides a few years from now, or even this year, that passenger travel isn't really ever profitable, and so Amtrak shouldn't have to be profitable either, maybe that creates an opportunitiy to stop charging sleeping car passengers for some of those ammentities. Removing those charges once Congress signs the right legislation is pretty straightforward. But if the PPC cars get scrapped, then bringing them back becomes a lot harder.

Next, Emmett Fremaux VP of Marketing & something (I forget what), has stated in public that he wants to turn the Capitol Limited into the Eastcoast's version of the EB or the CS. Unfortunately that dream remains unrealized, because at least so far he's been unable to get that train's timekeeping to a level where it actually makes sense to invest the extra money in marketing, promotion, and the enhanced service itself. And just in case you were curious, the Lake Shore Limited (aka the Late for Sure Limited) currently has a better OTP so far this year than the Capitol Limited does.
Turning to another question that I saw asked, ridership last year for the City was 180,473. For the Coast Starlight it was 343,542. Revenue was even more disparate at just over $13 Million for the City and $29.1 Million for the CS. So if you're in management and you're forced to choose which train gets the better service, which one are you going to pick? For the LSL, ridership was 312,643 and revenue was $21.4 M. The Capitol Limited saw 193,748 passengers and pulled in almost $14.9 M last fiscal year.

Except I guess single level dining cars turn out to be an exceptionally hard problem, and so the LSL doesn't get good food service in spite of good ridership?

Is there a good description somewhere of how a CCC car differs from a traditional superliner diner?

 

[Guest]

When i first heard about the decision to remove the lounge and go CCC I was extremely skeptical because i knew what the lounge was really used for.....overflow people boarding 58 at champaign and overflow people boarding 59 out of Homewood/Kankakee. For whatever reason, amtrak decided that the City could get by with just two coaches....

But alas, there was a method behind the madness.

There really is no need for a sight seer lounge on the City. It's dark when you leave chicago and doesn't get daylight until Memphis, then what do you have to look forward to? Field after field of Mississippi cotton!!!! OH BOY!

Amtrak has come through though. The City regularly gets a third coach if ridership is heavy (even sometimes getting a fourth coach!) The overflow problem is almost under control....although there are still some bad days. By subtracting the lounge and adding another coach you're producing more revenue than the lounge could EVER produce on even a good day.

------

Now then, about the CCC car....I agree that the Sleeping car passengers should be able to "come out of their rooms" and enjoy the train. I think amtrak needs to encourage the OBS people to open up the Dining/sleeper side of the car during non-meal times. Encourage sleeping car passengers to come back after dinner and play cards, tell stories, etc. The way i understand it now, once dinner is finished, everyone is shoo'd out of the car and then set back up for Breakfast.

---------

I think its time to realize that the old City of New Orleans is Dead....but it has been reborn into what it has been all along....a Regional long distance train. This is a Chicago to Memphis Train, It's also a Memphis to New Orleans Train, it's also a Jackson to New Orleans train.....

The "city" has never been about first class sleeping car amenities....

 

[RTOlson]

Is there a good description somewhere of how a CCC car differs from a traditional superliner diner?

There are numerous Web pages and online discussions about this (including this AU thread). My best guess based on photos is that they took a dining car, kept the kitchen on the lower level and completely revamped the upper level. Gone are the rows of booths stretching from end to end broken only by the serving station in the middle.

I think the number of booths have been reduced and the alignment has changed. Some booths still seem to follow the two benches around a table, but they are interspersed with horseshoe booths. The horseshoe booths are around the table facing the inside of the train.

The service station has been moved to one side of the car (slightly offset from the middle of the car) and turned more into a cafe booth. I daresay that this is where much of the all-day dining menu is prepared and served. There's a large display case in front of the service station offering some pantry items.

To me, it's almost like a club car with a kitchen below.

Since this has been a huge topic of discussion there are numerous thread showing both the new car and food from the CCC. I've found the posts on NARP Blog to be the most useful.

- Photographs of Amtrak’s New Diner-Lounge Car (actually from NARP's magazine)

- Dining with Amtrak’s Diner-Lounge (Cross-Country Café)

NARP also published photos from the Lake Shore Limited's "Diner-Lite" car.

Although I probably wouldn't mind eating in the CCC, I'm kind of on the fence about the CCC replacing both the diner and lounge cars. In terms of space, you're taking 2.5 floor levels of Superliner car space (the upper levels of the diner and lounge and half of the lower lounge) and combining them into just on one floor level (a combo diner/lounge). Of course, the diner was only open for food service, but the lounges are an extremely popular part of the train.

I can see why some people get upset about the reduced space on CCC (on routes that have removed the lounges). It also removes a unique amenity of the Superliner train set -- the Sightseer Lounge.

I can understand why people would be PO'd regarding the amenities on the Lake Shore Limited. I don't think I would enjoy dining in a refurbished Amfleet II lounge car. Are there reasonable solutions for single-level service? I don't know.

 

[Larry H.]

"Now then, about the CCC car....I agree that the Sleeping car passengers should be able to "come out of their rooms" and enjoy the train. I think amtrak needs to encourage the OBS people to open up the Dining/sleeper side of the car during non-meal times. Encourage sleeping car passengers to come back after dinner and play cards, tell stories, etc. The way i understand it now, once dinner is finished, everyone is shoo'd out of the car and then set back up for Breakfast.
---------

I think its time to realize that the old City of New Orleans is Dead....but it has been reborn into what it has been all along....a Regional long distance train. This is a Chicago to Memphis Train, It's also a Memphis to New Orleans Train, it's also a Jackson to New Orleans train.....

The "city" has never been about first class sleeping car amenities....

The "City" is running in place of what used to be the Panama Limited which ran overnight for less time and always carried a full diner as well as lounge. I still have reviews in the St. Louis Post Dispatch about the wonderful food prepared on board that train. Anyone remember the "Kings Dinner".. Evidently the old ICC didn't think that the run was not appropriate for diner or lounge service? Then why is that the given today. Were talking building business, not wrecking it.. The City was a day train that didn't run overnight!

I agree about the CCC needing to be allowed to be used as a lounge, but as mentioned normally it is protected so to speak by the crew and sitting in it is not encouraged. As to eating in the diner on the City, I refer again to my last trip north when the entire sleeper was sold out on a tuesday and passengers were being sold space in the crew car. So evidently even the City could be a Sleeper train if the space and cars were provided in the future. Remember that train used to pass though our area here hauling 12 to 13 cars. If they were all running empty I doubt they would have run that many..Now they are running with 3 revenue cars.. One sleeper and two coaches.. How is that going to handle a major upswing in passengers.. Worse yet is the number of those who wish to travel by rail and are turned away due to lack of space. There was space, who got rid of it..

 

[had8ley]

In a nut shell~ It's the same ole thing after 37 years~ Smoke and mirrors. I've seen people try to get simple things done like maybe change the number boards on the cars so that pax don't get confused but "That's not my job!" is a common answer. Not everyone loves Amtrak and getting them on board one time is enough to run them off forever. Some one needs to load all the brass up into a CCC so that they can see how it is NOT going to work.

 

[RTOlson]

The way i understand it now, once dinner is finished, everyone is shoo'd out of the car and then set back up for Breakfast.

I don't even know how they would be able to close the CCC after dinner ends at 9 p.m. It would defeat the purpose of "all-day dining" which obstensibly runs from 11 a.m. until midnight.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

First, one thing that should be noted here Larry is that the CS hasn't just been given the PPC's back as a gift. As noted in another topic, Amtrak has now come up with a plan that they at least hope will make at least some money off these cars. If that doesn't materialize, then these cars may vanish into history in a year or two. My point of course being that Amtrak took away cars from the City because they were failing to produce revenue, and in fact the PPC's were almost eliminated totally about a year ago.
Now I note that in the other topic on this board, that some were upset that they were going to have to pay for certain things. At least and until enough of the public stands on the toes of our Congressional members to get them to reverse the ill conceived rule in the Amtrak funding bill that requires Amtrak to cut the nearly $200 Million that Amtrak was loosing on food service each year, we are going to continue to see things like the CCC and having to pay for things in the PPC.

Since Amtrak is trying to generate revenue from the PPC, I would hope they would consider specifically charging for the PPC itself before they actually eliminate it. For example, they could create a specific "Parlour Class", which would separate those sleeper-class passengers who want to utilize the PPC from those who don't. I know that may be complicated (it would involve changing the reservation process on the web site, etc.) Alternately, they could just charge for the PPC itself. When you're already paying several hundred dollars on the trip, I would think some people would be willing to pay more - $20? $50?- for "access to a first class lounge while onboard", or something to that effect.

Of course, I would prefer that the PPC remain free to all first-class passengers. This is one of those really frustrating things about Amtrak - they want to eliminate non-revenue generating aspects of their service, but since the costs are all-inclusive, they really have no idea how much the average passenger is willing to pay for those items. Assuming that their funding woes continue for many years, one would almost think it would be easier if they started to itemize all aspects of the trip, as airlines are starting to do - bill individually for everything from checked baggage to dining car service. That way, passengers could speak with their wallets & help Amtrak justify saving the portions of rail travel that are actually important to their paying customers. However, I hope the recent rise in gas prices & a new administration in Washington won't make any of this necessary.

 

[Larry H.]

Boy, it seems to me that for what they are charging, our recent round trip to california was about $5,500 for two... How much more should we be expected to pay to enjoy a decent diner and have a comfortable lounge? I think the services that your wanting to pay for were incorporated long ago into the fare structure but somehow they keep finding ways to eliminate all the reasons your paying an extra fare in the first place.

I wish I had kept the fare schedules from the late 50's early 60's.. Yes things, all things were much cheaper then. But I distinctly recall that going pullman, while higher naturally than coach, was not a price that took your breath away. In fact I can still recall thinking that the upgrade was not a whole lot more than going coach.. And the first class lounge and full diners ect., were a part of the fare structure. We are still looking for things that are not answerable with any reason. A national rail passenger system should not be geared only to those wealthy enough to not care what they have to pay. Remember we are paying with our taxes already once.. Some consideration to that should be given.. I pay for the highways in my taxes, last time I looked at least where I drive no one was saying, oh here you have to pay a whole lot more again for the privilege of using the road. Quantity nearly always results in overall cost being driven down.. We need to have a much larger passenger base, that would take care of many things. For that the service needs to emanate from a lot more hubs than just a couple and decent equipment needs to be at the ready when you do go. The only way that will ever happen is if the government quits trying to gouge the public into making amtrak pay its own way, its not going to happen, so all these other ways of sticking it to the traveling public are in the long run detrimental to making rail a viable option for a vastly larger segment of the population.

 

[AlanB]

What I do say and most people seem to believe it, is that the whole concept of the trains making money or breaking even is flawed. We keep trying to somehow defend a policy that was fatal to passenger service in the first place. Rail service all over the world seems to need government subsidies to operate. Were fooling ourselves if we think they are going too ever pay for them selves. So this cut, cut, cut, idea in order to be profitable is just driving the system into the ground. Think of all the extra revenue that is being generated by higher gas taxes! A good deal of that ought to be aimed at improving and providing reasonable service to more parts of the country. I have no doubt that if the kind of suggestions such as the NARP has about interconnected cities were ever followed through that ridership would soar. There is a great demand for other travel options now. Its not the time to play the same old, we can't do it, games.

Well I've been bothered for years by the entire idea under which Amtrak was created, that being that it was a "for profit" company. That was a dream that was sold to the country back in 1970-71. Yes, certain economies of scale can be obtained from an Amtrak vs. the operations that preceeded it and perhaps handled properly and managed properly, it might well be possible to cover the operating costs of the system.

But I for one don't believe that it will ever be possible for Amtrak to cover its capital costs. Therefore profitablity is nothing more than a bad dream.

Unfortunately, we have a White House that still believes in that dream as well as many members in Congress.

 

[AlanB]

Next, Emmett Fremaux VP of Marketing & something (I forget what), has stated in public that he wants to turn the Capitol Limited into the Eastcoast's version of the EB or the CS. Unfortunately that dream remains unrealized, because at least so far he's been unable to get that train's timekeeping to a level where it actually makes sense to invest the extra money in marketing, promotion, and the enhanced service itself. And just in case you were curious, the Lake Shore Limited (aka the Late for Sure Limited) currently has a better OTP so far this year than the Capitol Limited does.
Turning to another question that I saw asked, ridership last year for the City was 180,473. For the Coast Starlight it was 343,542. Revenue was even more disparate at just over $13 Million for the City and $29.1 Million for the CS. So if you're in management and you're forced to choose which train gets the better service, which one are you going to pick? For the LSL, ridership was 312,643 and revenue was $21.4 M. The Capitol Limited saw 193,748 passengers and pulled in almost $14.9 M last fiscal year.

Except I guess single level dining cars turn out to be an exceptionally hard problem, and so the LSL doesn't get good food service in spite of good ridership?

In the case of the LSL, with the shortage of Heritage dining cars, it made the most sense to steal cars from the LSL, because it only serves dinner going west, none coming east. So it was the logical choice both fiscally and for the customer base. People on the LSL may not think so, but those on the Crescent would be far more unhappy with a Diner-Lite car than those on the LSL for it's shorter run.

 

[AlanB]

Now then, about the CCC car....I agree that the Sleeping car passengers should be able to "come out of their rooms" and enjoy the train. I think amtrak needs to encourage the OBS people to open up the Dining/sleeper side of the car during non-meal times. Encourage sleeping car passengers to come back after dinner and play cards, tell stories, etc. The way i understand it now, once dinner is finished, everyone is shoo'd out of the car and then set back up for Breakfast.

As was mentioned by Haolerider back on page one, has been mentioned in a few other topics, Amtrak is encouraging the PBS people to open up the long side of the CCC for passenger use (not just sleeping car pax) between meal periods. It would seem however that they crews have decided that they don't care to follow those guidelines, something that doesn't actually surprise me at all. Especially when I've seen how well they follow the rules that they were given for SDS and in most cases the crew's modifications to the SDS plan are to the detriment of the passengers. I've seen a few variations that benefited the pax, but most times it didn't.

 

[had8ley]

Now then, about the CCC car....I agree that the Sleeping car passengers should be able to "come out of their rooms" and enjoy the train. I think amtrak needs to encourage the OBS people to open up the Dining/sleeper side of the car during non-meal times. Encourage sleeping car passengers to come back after dinner and play cards, tell stories, etc. The way i understand it now, once dinner is finished, everyone is shoo'd out of the car and then set back up for Breakfast.

As was mentioned by Haolerider back on page one, has been mentioned in a few other topics, Amtrak is encouraging the PBS people to open up the long side of the CCC for passenger use (not just sleeping car pax) between meal periods. It would seem however that they crews have decided that they don't care to follow those guidelines, something that doesn't actually surprise me at all. Especially when I've seen how well they follow the rules that they were given for SDS and in most cases the crew's modifications to the SDS plan are to the detriment of the passengers. I've seen a few variations that benefited the pax, but most times it didn't.

Alan;

Totally agree with you! The CCC was created for bumper to bumper but the Eagle still detrains the CCC crew at Austin and picks them back northbound up the next morning. Do we need to get a dictionary to 60 Massachusetts Avenue to define "bumper to bumper?" To add to the fire there are three LSA's sitting on the Fort Worth extra board to cover Heartland Flyer. They could be going From Fort Worth to San Antonio and return and fulfilling Amtrak's light hearted commitment to "bumper to bumper service?

 

[AmtrakCrescent20]

The City Of New Orleans could run inefficiently with 2 P42s, a baggage, a Transition Sleeper, a Sleeper, a Diner, a Lounge, and 2 coaches (A total of 2 engines and 7 cars) or efficiently with 1 P42, A trans-sleeper, a sleeper, a CCC, a Coach-Baggage, and a Coach. Both trains offer 3.5 revenue cars. One requires a lot more fuel to move and a lot more staff. 3.5/7 or 3.5/5?

The Texas Eagle runs with one P42, a transition sleeper, a sleeper, a CCC (formerly a diner), a lounge, and three coaches (four St. Louis-CHI), so it shouldn't require an extra engine just to add an extra car, unless there are steep grades or the like on the CONO.

 

[AlanB]

The CCC was created for bumper to bumper but the Eagle still detrains the CCC crew at Austin and picks them back northbound up the next morning. Do we need to get a dictionary to 60 Massachusetts Avenue to define "bumper to bumper?" To add to the fire there are three LSA's sitting on the Fort Worth extra board to cover Heartland Flyer. They could be going From Fort Worth to San Antonio and return and fulfilling Amtrak's light hearted commitment to "bumper to bumper service?

I don't know that I've ever heard that the CCC for the Eagle was supposed to be bumper to bumper. I've only heard that claim in reference to the CCC on the CONO.

 

[AlanB]

Remember we are paying with our taxes already once.. Some consideration to that should be given.

Larry,

Please, I'm not trying to be snide or insulting with this comment, but your contribution to Amtrak last year via taxes was about 5 bucks. How much consideration did you expect to get for that?

 

[had8ley]

The CCC was created for bumper to bumper but the Eagle still detrains the CCC crew at Austin and picks them back northbound up the next morning. Do we need to get a dictionary to 60 Massachusetts Avenue to define "bumper to bumper?" To add to the fire there are three LSA's sitting on the Fort Worth extra board to cover Heartland Flyer. They could be going From Fort Worth to San Antonio and return and fulfilling Amtrak's light hearted commitment to "bumper to bumper service?

I don't know that I've ever heard that the CCC for the Eagle was supposed to be bumper to bumper. I've only heard that claim in reference to the CCC on the CONO.

It was never said publicly but I was told by an Asst. GM that the Eagle would run the CCC the same as the City. Another case of two left hands and no right hand to catch the ball with.

 

[Hamhock]

Veering slightly-off the track here, in regards to the eternal Federal subsidization brouhaha, I've always felt that Amtrak (in accord with Congress) should offer to US taxpayers on a yearly basis the choice of: a) one free voucher for a single-zone coach ticket, or the equivalent of that person's "contribution" as a tax credit.

It's a win-win; either non-riders try the train and get much more than fair exchange for their paltry tax contribution (and who knows? maybe become enamored and pay to ride again, or spend money in the cafe car), or they get their 9 dollars or whatever it is back. The worst-case scenario is Amtrak is out maybe 1/4 of one percent of their annual operating budget, and all the usual people moaning about the socialist railroad can go pound sand.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

I've always felt that Amtrak (in accord with Congress) should offer to US taxpayers on a yearly basis the choice of: a) one free voucher for a single-zone coach ticket, or the equivalent of that person's "contribution" as a tax credit.

An excellent idea!!

And while we're at it, let's get vouchers for a cruise on an aircraft carrier, including a cat shot in an F-18, a ride on the space shuttle, and free lunches at participating military installations.

 

[Hamhock]

I've always felt that Amtrak (in accord with Congress) should offer to US taxpayers on a yearly basis the choice of: a) one free voucher for a single-zone coach ticket, or the equivalent of that person's "contribution" as a tax credit.

An excellent idea!!

And while we're at it, let's get vouchers for a cruise on an aircraft carrier, including a cat shot in an F-18, a ride on the space shuttle, and free lunches at participating military installations.

I understand it's absurd; I was merely attempting to provide an "out" for the persistent complaining from non-fans of Amtrak about their money funding it.

 

[had8ley]

I've always felt that Amtrak (in accord with Congress) should offer to US taxpayers on a yearly basis the choice of: a) one free voucher for a single-zone coach ticket, or the equivalent of that person's "contribution" as a tax credit.

An excellent idea!!

And while we're at it, let's get vouchers for a cruise on an aircraft carrier, including a cat shot in an F-18, a ride on the space shuttle, and free lunches at participating military installations.

Don't forget to paint the EB PINK for Betty one round trip either.

 

[Larry H.]

Larry,
Please, I'm not trying to be snide or insulting with this comment, but your contribution to Amtrak last year via taxes was about 5 bucks. How much consideration did you expect to get for that?

No problem Allen, you and I come close to agreeing on this one. I would have thought we were throwing money at Amtrak hand over fist, with the way some in the government complain about supporting it.. Its not so much how much each taxpayer is contributing which with the Millions we have in population, but the fact that the price structure is so high and constantly getting higher. And no matter what the individual may be paying in taxes towards Amtrak, the fact is we are supporting it and it would be nice to be treated accordingly.