Unsold sleepers

[Cho Cho Charlie]

But still, why can't they just change the system such that the sleepers allocate more money to the diners?

I kind-of agree with that.     If the money allocated is based off the menu prices, then by increasing the menu prices, more money will get allocated to the diners

 

[jis]

I'm obviously missing something here, but if the only requirement is that F&B turns a profit, and not the train overall, then why wouldn't this work? I'm not challenging you, just curious.

Trains eventually running profitably is a requirement from 1971. The Diner thing is more recent. So unless it is recognized that in reality all that one can realistically do is increase efficiency of operations rather than shoot for unachievable profit goal, we are screwed. The detail is what we are tinkering with as to how we prefer to get screwed - from the front or the back, in a manner of speaking.

 

[cpotisch]

I kind-of agree with that.     If the money allocated is based off the menu prices, then by increasing the menu prices, more money will get allocated to the diners

Or don't increase the menu prices and just increase the amount allocated from the sleepers. In fact, if you have enough revenue coming in from the sleepers, couldn't you possibly lower menu prices to make it more of an option to coach pax?

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Why can't people see that the real solution is to stop treating the Diner as a separate P&L center and just make it an integral part of the operation as a train, with the train treated as a P&L center, or better still the route, or even better, just the region, treated as a P&L center? It really is crazy t treat the Diner as a P&L center by itself. No one else in the world does so.

This goes back to comments I made a long time ago.    I don't think the Cruise ships run their Main Dining Rooms as a separate profit center.   Yea, the MDR's might bring in a few bucks with the extras the sell, like wine and soda, but that would no where cover the full cost of running the MDR's. 

 

[railbuck]

If the actual menu price of food/drink consumed by a Sleeper passenger is transferred over to the Diner, then a Sleeper passenger is essentially paying the same as a Coach passenger.   If under that the Diner is still loosing money, then IMHO, the Diner needs to raise its menu prices to more accurately reflect actual cost.     Yea, I realize that higher menu prices are fighting words to many here, but I think that realistic pricing is essential to a viable Diner service.

The problem then becomes that fewer coach passengers will use the diner at the higher prices, which spreads the fixed costs over fewer meals, which necessitates even higher prices, spiraling out of control.

I've said before, and continue to believe, that this is part of the reason for Contemporary Dining, and a reason it is likely to spread beyond the initial two trains.  By restricting food service in the dining car sleeper lounge to meals-included sleeper passengers and not publishing menu prices, the accounting cost per meal can be inflated exorbitantly in an attempt to meet the break-even mandate.

 

[ainamkartma]

Not selling excess inventory at cut rates is a yield mgt calculation made by many businesses. Used to sign up for standby for a flight, dirt cheap, now that is a rarity. It is easy to say an unsold seat or space or cabin is a zero, but that zero may be better than driving down the total yield by creating large enough groups of customers willing to risk waiting. It is by no means a simple process.

Excuse me?  Are you saying that airlines are in the habit of sending out planes with empty seats when people are waiting on standby, or with empty first class seats when people are waitlisted for an upgrade?  I have flown about 100K miles per year for the last 15 years, and I have never, not once, seen this happen*.  I have heard of it happening on other airlines, but it was very much a "man bites dog" level story.  I would be astonished to learn that it is standard practice for airlines to turn away revenue and send out an empty seat "pour encourager les autres".

Ainamkartma

* Now, of course empty seats do happen for weight and balance issues and other causes, but to drive up future revenue by influencing customer behavior? That seems quite far fetched, to say the least.

 

[Triley]

Excuse me?  Are you saying that airlines are in the habit of sending out planes with empty seats when people are waiting on standby, or with empty first class seats when people are waitlisted for an upgrade?  I have flown about 100K miles per year for the last 15 years, and I have never, not once, seen this happen*.  I have heard of it happening on other airlines, but it was very much a "man bites dog" level story.  I would be astonished to learn that it is standard practice for airlines to turn away revenue and send out an empty seat "pour encourager les autres".
Ainamkartma
* Now, of course empty seats do happen for weight and balance issues and other causes, but to drive up future revenue by influencing customer behavior? That seems quite far fetched, to say the least.

Come on up to Air Canada where you must use e-upgrade credits to upgrade (which you are issued a limited amount of depending on status). No freebies. I have flown Boston-Montreal in a 12 seat business class by myself, and coach sold out, with folks on standby. No diluting the business class cabin benefits there, even for top level elites. That's a US airline thing, it seems. But with all the competition, it needs to happen to keep elites brand loyal.

Also, generally speaking they don't allow free standby and certainly not same day change, for the average Joe. No matter if the flight is at 1% capacity. Want to change? Pay up. (Unless your flight is oversold, then they may bite).

But this is all getting a bit off topic, isn't it?

 

[PVD]

No, I'm not saying they are turning the passengers away, I'm saying they aren't filling them at dirt cheap prices, big difference. Now most airlines overbook, many also charge fees to same day changes/ standbys (people who want to leave on an earlier flight than the one they booked)

 

[cpotisch]

Excuse me?  Are you saying that airlines are in the habit of sending out planes with empty seats when people are waiting on standby, or with empty first class seats when people are waitlisted for an upgrade?  I have flown about 100K miles per year for the last 15 years, and I have never, not once, seen this happen*.  I have heard of it happening on other airlines, but it was very much a "man bites dog" level story.  I would be astonished to learn that it is standard practice for airlines to turn away revenue and send out an empty seat "pour encourager les autres".

Ainamkartma

* Now, of course empty seats do happen for weight and balance issues and other causes, but to drive up future revenue by influencing customer behavior? That seems quite far fetched, to say the least.

I think you missed basically the entire point of what he was saying...

 

[jis]

No, I'm not saying they are turning the passengers away, I'm saying they aren't filling them at dirt cheap prices, big difference. Now most airlines overbook, many also charge fees to same day changes/ standbys (people who want to leave on an earlier flight than the one they booked)

Actually this point is debatable too. Would you consider a complementary upgrade given to me from a low bucket Coach price to First Class, filling a First Class seat for dirt cheap price? Depending on how that is viewed the position stated is either universally correct or wrong on many occasions.

I actually know many, including myself, who routinely carefully select flights to game the system to get such upgrades, and the airlines don;t seem to mind. They are vacating a Coach seat by moving me to an FC seat that they could not sell, and then accommodating another possibly low bucket paying customer on standby into that vacated Coach seat. In my view that is pretty much filling seats in FC at dirt cheap prices to milk the flight for all it is worth.

 

[PVD]

It is not the same as the old policy of selling cheap standby tickets for coach. That is not common practice any more. Now overbooking is common, seats freed up by upgraded passengers are mostly going to passengers who are paying change fees or a normal price. But more and more flights are very full, load factors today are much higher than they were years ago. Airlines manage inventory very differently than in the past. Premium seating upgrades rewarding good customers is different than rewarding the general public gambling on a cheap ticket because time may not be as critical as price.

 

[chakk]

I have turned down airplane standbys to earlier flights when the airline wanted mo money than I was willing to pay. So yes, planes do leave with empty seats and “paying customers” left at the gate. They are just not paying enough, in the airline’s opinion.

 

[jis]

It is not the same as the old policy of selling cheap standby tickets for coach. That is not common practice any more. Now overbooking is common, seats freed up by upgraded passengers are mostly going to passengers who are paying change fees or a normal price. But more and more flights are very full, load factors today are much higher than they were years ago. Airlines manage inventory very differently than in the past. Premium seating upgrades rewarding good customers is different than rewarding the general public gambling on a cheap ticket because time may not be as critical as price.

That is true. but that is not what you said in the statement that I was contesting. Your original statement appeared to be much more universal and unconstrained. Now that you have suitably constrained the universe of discourse, thanks for the clarification.

 

[jebr]

I haven't been at the point where I've been able to get a free upgrade, though I have gotten offers for upgrades to first class at check-in (though more than I was willing to pay, usually.)

That particular practice has me wondering how long it'll take before Amtrak will start offering those upgrades for shorter journeys, especially for day trips or overnight trips where there's a lot of unsold capacity. I doubt Amtrak would offer a full Chicago - Seattle upgrade below low bucket even if there was a lot of unsold capacity, but shorter segments like Chicago - St. Paul, Omaha - Denver, or Kansas City - La Junta would make sense for such a program. Amtrak could probably tell what kind of sales they'd expect to get before that particular destination and determine whether to keep some open just in case someone wants to buy a last-minute sleeper along that portion. However, it'd avoid selling a room that still could get resold at a standard rate further down the line.

While there's no check-in process at many stations (and basically none that uses a kiosk for all passengers,) the Amtrak app could push out a notification saying that discounted upgrades are available, or Amtrak could send an email to those traveling notifying them of the upgrade options (hopefully with at least an opt-out option for those that don't want that upsell.) I'm not sure if it'd be something to have OBS push as well, though it certainly could be if the process is made simple for OBS to do.

A more advanced version of this could allow for certain elite members or upgrade coupons to be used for these shorter distances, along with selling shorter-length upgrades along a longer trip (so if someone's traveling the full length of a Chicago - Emeryville Zephyr run, but Amtrak has significant unsold capacity just from Omaha - Denver, Amtrak could still try to push upgrades to coach passengers for that particular night.)

 

[benale]

And again the woman calls the 800 number and is quoted a ridiculus fare to upgrade to a sleeper. So the sleeper remains empty. Again WHY?



.

 

[jis]

I haven't been at the point where I've been able to get a free upgrade, though I have gotten offers for upgrades to first class at check-in (though more than I was willing to pay, usually.) 

I have actually accepted paid upgrade at checkin or within 48 hours of checkin on international legs that were demonstrably worth it, given the lie flat seat it comes with. For example, on a ~$700 flight from Tel Aviv to Newark I was offered a $500 upgrade to a seat that normally would cost several thousand dollars, and I took it. Two nice meals and a lie flat bed for a flight over 10 hours seemed worth it to me. Of course if one does not have the disposable income to throw away on such it is a different matter. But then again, I was not going to spend the discounted fare for that same seat which was significantly higher (like double or more) than what I got it for.

 

[jebr]

And again the woman calls the 800 number and is quoted a ridiculus fare to upgrade to a sleeper. So the sleeper remains empty. Again WHY?

Because Amtrak doesn't want to sell it for lower than the high fare? Without seeing actual inventory numbers, it's hard to say how many sleepers Amtrak has open, and Amtrak seems to want to generally hold at least some sleeper inventory at high bucket in hopes of getting top dollar for the room.

 

[trainman74]

I haven't been at the point where I've been able to get a free upgrade, though I have gotten offers for upgrades to first class at check-in (though more than I was willing to pay, usually.)

That particular practice has me wondering how long it'll take before Amtrak will start offering those upgrades for shorter journeys, especially for day trips or overnight trips where there's a lot of unsold capacity.

There was a time when Amtrak would call people with coach reservations, days or weeks in advance of their trip, and offer discount upgrades to sleeper. (I was the recipient of one of these calls in 2002, when a friend and I were booked L.A.-to-Oakland on the Coast Starlight. If I recall correctly, the offer was $75 for the both of us, which I accepted immediately.)

 

[ainamkartma]

That is true. but that is not what you said in the statement that I was contesting. Your original statement appeared to be much more universal and unconstrained. Now that you have suitably constrained the universe of discourse, thanks for the clarification.

I echo Jis's gratitude for the clarification.

Ainamkartma

 

[chakk]

There was a time when Amtrak would call people with coach reservations, days or weeks in advance of their trip, and offer discount upgrades to sleeper. (I was the recipient of one of these calls in 2002, when a friend and I were booked L.A.-to-Oakland on the Coast Starlight. If I recall correctly, the offer was $75 for the both of us, which I accepted immediately.)

I got a similar call to my home phone in Calif many yearsr ago when I was on a business trip in Colorado, offering to upgrade my coach reservation for the next day to a roomette from Denver to Emeryville for $100. My wife took the call and informed me of the offer. I asked her to “book ‘em, Danno!” and enjoyed that upgrade.

 

[benale]

When I rode Coach most of the time I would get a call from Amtrak to upgrade to a roomette for a very attractive price and I always accepted. I take it they dont do that anymore. The night before the start of a trip Amtrak knows how many unsold sleepers there are for the journey. Ive read all the comments and again..
If Amtrak knows a sleeper will remain empty the entire trip or a portion of it why dont they sell them at a discount to fill them? As I said a discounted sale is better than no sale. This seems so simple and straightforward!

 

[cpotisch]

When I rode Coach most of the time I would get a call from Amtrak to upgrade to a roomette for a very attractive price and I always accepted. I take it they dont do that anymore. The night before the start of a trip Amtrak knows how many unsold sleepers there are for the journey. Ive read all the comments and again..
If Amtrak knows a sleeper will remain empty the entire trip or a portion of it why dont they sell them at a discount to fill them? As I said a discounted sale is better than no sale. This seems so simple and straightforward!

You've already asked this exact question several times and we keep on answering.

Everytime I ride I notice many empty sleeping compartments. Why doesnt the conductor sell them on board? Im sure there are many Coach passengers who would jump at the chance to get a sleeper for the overnight portion of their trip. I never heard any announcements ever about sleepers being available and probably most of passengers in Coach arent even aware you can upgrade. So a lot of sleepers remain empty adding nothing to Amtraks pocket

I am probably naive about this but isnt a discounted sleeper better than having it run empty producing no revenue at all? Im on the Texas Eagle now and many rooms are empty and have been empty since we left Chicago yesterday. What am I missing here? As mentioned,if the sleepers were offered at a discount and maybe without meals wouldnt that be better than an empty compartment?

Again...a discounted sleeper when you want to upgrade from Coach is better than the room remaining empty. Just dont get it.

Exactly. Thats my point. A discounted sale is better than no sale. Make coach passengers aware they can upgrade.

And again the woman calls the 800 number and is quoted a ridiculus fare to upgrade to a sleeper. So the sleeper remains empty. Again WHY?

 

[Triley]

 

To which no one on this site can definitively answer, since we don't have a say in the decision making, and if you really want an answer, you need to ask Amtrak.

 

[neroden]

I can only say that I don't think I've ever been on a Lake Shore Limited where the sleepers didn't fill up, except on Thanksgiving Day.

Frequently they filled up only from Elyria to Sandusky, which makes it a little non-obvious unless you wake up in the middle of the night.

I don't think Amtrak is very good at handling the mathematical problem of pricing and selling the short haul space.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

And again the woman calls the 800 number and is quoted a ridiculus fare to upgrade to a sleeper. So the sleeper remains empty. Again WHY?

Does this go back to that old (fruitless) argument....    the coach seat would have otherwise gone empty.  So, you must allow me to sit in it for free.