Uh, OH! Heritage Diners vanishing from the LSL!?

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from http://railpace.com/hotnews/
Apparently, the Heritage Diners are in their final days, as a modified AmDinette makes its appearance on the LSL for table service in place of the Heritage Diner.
Before everyone goes crazy, I wouldn't worry too much... yet.

I saw something similar on the Crescent a few months back and made some calls to folks at Amtrak and NARP. Turns out they're still testing the car's performance under different loads as a matter of market research (sometimes with an adjacent diner, sometimes without). There are a few times recently where Diners have been bad-ordered and Amtrak has had to substitue one or two Diner/Lounges to pinch hit for the run.

I've been grilling Fremaux's office pretty regularly on this topic, and they've been adamant that they're not looking to make any drastic reductions in service on the single level lines any time soon. If anything happens with regard to replacing diners for Diner/Lounges, the vibe I'm getting is that it'll happen first on trains like the Sunset, Eagle, and City, with other trains like the Capitol having them on the off-season, if at all.

Bottom line: the Diner/Lounge situation still very much in the "research & development" stage.

-Rafi
 
Bottom line: the Diner/Lounge situation still very much in the "research & development" stage.
Wow, Rafi, thanks for all the details on this. I'm actually rather excited to do my own research on the Diner/Lounge situation (riding the Cardinal in a few weeks, which will be my first Diner Lite experience if I understand correctly that these run regularly on that train). But I love the Heritage diners, and I do hope Amtrak keeps them in service.

I'm continually surprised at the number of friends I have who ride trains like the LSL and don't realize it has a dining car. They walk forward, find the cafe car, and assume that's all there is; they buy a slightly overpriced microwaved sandwich and a soda, and generally have a poor impression of food on Amtrak as a result. (Not to mention that there aren't good vegetarian options in the cafe car.) In recent conversations, I've gotten several of those friends excited about the idea of restaurant service, better food, and reasonable prices on the train, and I hope that'll both improve their next trips home and boost Amtrak's dining car patronage.

Right now, I'm in the Acela Lounge at WAS waiting for the Capitol Ltd and looking forward to my dinner in the diner :)
 
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Does anyone know if the Diner-Lounge on the LSL, when it runs in place of a diner, has the same menu/service as that on the Cardinal?
 
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I'm not so sure I'll miss the diner. I'd rather see an amfleet diner in there than a heritage diner. The car will be new inside vs. the hit or miss heritage diners. Further, you should be able to still get good meals.

I don't know why, but I'm pretty hung up on seeing a uniform consist. I think the outside world might agree and maybe even thing its a better operation that one with 5 different styles of cars.
 
PS..there is a video on youtube from 9/17 of the lake shore at Terrytown, and it's consist is a P32, baggage, 3 viewliners, an amcafe/diner/whater, then a hirzon cafe, then 4 Amfleet II's.

I guess the Horizon cafe is the snack car and the Amfleet Cafe is the Diner-Lite.
 
I'm not so sure I'll miss the diner. I'd rather see an amfleet diner in there than a heritage diner. The car will be new inside vs. the hit or miss heritage diners. Further, you should be able to still get good meals.
I don't know why, but I'm pretty hung up on seeing a uniform consist. I think the outside world might agree and maybe even thing its a better operation that one with 5 different styles of cars.
I agree Mike, regarding the uniform consist assuming the food service is the same.

What I would like to know is why is Amtrak so hung up on this food service issue? I realize there was a congressional mandate to cut the cost of food or whatever; but can't someone high up at Amtrak, gather some data on the Empire Builder's successful, (I assume), dining service and present that to congress as a case in point on what it takes to have a decent dining experience? To me this whole SDS/Diner-Lite is a waste of time, resources and money that could be better spent elsewhere while they take years to implement it. I mean it seems like it: Cars go out and get tested then come back. They refit a car or two then send them out again. Passengers weigh-in on the food... then back to the drawing board. I wonder how many people are tied up in this program that could be better utilized elsewhere. To me the rapidly wearing Superliners and Viewliners are in much more need of an overhaul then the need to order and refit new tables/benches/etc for the cars converting to DL; which, mind you, most passengers prefer the traditional Diner and Lounge separate cars anyway.
 
SDS seems to be progressing along as planned. There are several more cars that need to be retrofitted. And the the SDS system will continue to be tested while in this stage. I have one question to ask all...... should any of this be of any surprise?

At least we still have dining car service.... :blink: OBS gone freight....
 
Rafi,Could you see them running the cars in pairs during testing stage without a Diner?
To be honest, the only confirmed reports I've gotten from SDS testing of the modified Amfleet Diner/Lounge (outside of the Cardinal, which hasn't had a full diner in years) have involved running it next to the conventional diner with the Diner/Lounge serving a modified (more limited) SDS menu with an emphasis on alternative "appetizer-sized" dishes that aren't available individually from the Dining car (chicken wings, etc); the Diner has continued serving the normal SDS Diner menu.

That said, I've been told that they are in the process or are planning to test other configurations, but I haven't gotten any specifics. What I can say, however, is that as I understand it, the Diner/Lounge in both Amfleet and Superliner configurations is (as of right now) intended primarily as a replacement for the Diner ONLY for the off-season on certain routes (like the Capitol) and as a possible "regular" on lower capacity routes, like the Sunset, Cardinal, etc. Amtrak has been adamant that in the case of Single Level LD trains, they have no plans to remove the Diners right now.

-Rafi
 
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Well i know what the Amtrak or Amfleet cafe diners are like, but does what they will add to the LSL differ and what simplified menu?? I am riding the LSL in October 11 so I am curious as to what changes I will see.????

BillVas
 
Well i know what the Amtrak or Amfleet cafe diners are like, but does what they will add to the LSL differ and what simplified menu??
Bill,

The Simplified Menu refers to the Simplified Dining Service (SDS) that is currently in effect on almost all long distance trains. Those menus can be found in our Links section.

Diner-Lite refers to redesigned cars that serve SDS meals, in addition to normal cafe food. Kind of a marriage between today's current dining cars and today's cafe cars into one car. The menu, at least during one of the test runs, appears to add even more choices than are currently available with the traditional dining car and the cafe car. You can read about that trial run in this topic. Note: The writer was on the Capitol Limited so the design of the car will be different than what you might see, but at least it will give you some idea on what to expect.
 
I may have to eat my words. I'll be posting a full explanation/description/pictorial on Rafi on the Rails tomorrow (I'm on the round-the-country trip as I write this, so be sure to stop by the blog to watch the trip live), but here's the big news:

The Lake Shore is running with a single Diner/Lounge, no full diner, and three almost sold-out sleepers. The crew reports that this is their second trip in a row with the Diner/Lounge consist and have received no word as to whether the full Diner is coming back. I'll be soliciting comments from Amtrak and NARP tomorrow for Rafi on the Rails, but figured folks here would want the news first.

Stand by for more.

-Rafi
 
ehh... doesn't sound real good. But what can you do? At least we still have trains, for now. I just rode the Lake Shore this summer... I'll be interested to hear what more you find out!
 
Just my $0.02 at this point, but from Rafi's initial report, it seems Amtrak has badly underestimated the demand for dining service on the LSL.

Did anyone at the Amtrak headshed perform operational analysis before attempting to implement SDS/Diner-Lite/(fill in a name for service cutting)? Or does the accounting system which Amtrak uses, serves to promote such service glitches?
 
I'm not so sure I'll miss the diner. I'd rather see an amfleet diner in there than a heritage diner. The car will be new inside vs. the hit or miss heritage diners. Further, you should be able to still get good meals.
I don't know why, but I'm pretty hung up on seeing a uniform consist. I think the outside world might agree and maybe even thing its a better operation that one with 5 different styles of cars.
I agree Mike, regarding the uniform consist assuming the food service is the same.

What I would like to know is why is Amtrak so hung up on this food service issue? I realize there was a congressional mandate to cut the cost of food or whatever; but can't someone high up at Amtrak, gather some data on the Empire Builder's successful, (I assume), dining service and present that to congress as a case in point on what it takes to have a decent dining experience? To me this whole SDS/Diner-Lite is a waste of time, resources and money that could be better spent elsewhere while they take years to implement it. I mean it seems like it: Cars go out and get tested then come back. They refit a car or two then send them out again. Passengers weigh-in on the food... then back to the drawing board. I wonder how many people are tied up in this program that could be better utilized elsewhere. To me the rapidly wearing Superliners and Viewliners are in much more need of an overhaul then the need to order and refit new tables/benches/etc for the cars converting to DL; which, mind you, most passengers prefer the traditional Diner and Lounge separate cars anyway.
There's one big difference here~ Congress has mandated that food service costs be slashed. I'll settle for a sit down dinner in a new configuration but promise you I'll miss the Heritage equipment as much as anyone else. When one of the older baggage cars drops a journal (or bearing) and we have a big derailment then Congress will possible realize the state of the 50 plus year old cars. In one way this is eliminating part of the age problem in the car fleet.
 
I'm curious to see how this works out with THREE sleepers. That's quite a crowd for one diner/lounge, however I've taken LSL several times with my wife and it does seem that the vast majority of the passengers in the Diner are Sleeping Car passengers.
 
I may have to eat my words. I'll be posting a full explanation/description/pictorial on Rafi on the Rails tomorrow (I'm on the round-the-country trip as I write this, so be sure to stop by the blog to watch the trip live), but here's the big news:
The Lake Shore is running with a single Diner/Lounge, no full diner, and three almost sold-out sleepers. The crew reports that this is their second trip in a row with the Diner/Lounge consist and have received no word as to whether the full Diner is coming back. I'll be soliciting comments from Amtrak and NARP tomorrow for Rafi on the Rails, but figured folks here would want the news first.

Stand by for more.

-Rafi
My understanding is that they are running a separate lounge (Horizen) along with the new Diner/Lounge. Is this so or are they just running the one car to handle all food services on the train?
 
I may have to eat my words. I'll be posting a full explanation/description/pictorial on Rafi on the Rails tomorrow (I'm on the round-the-country trip as I write this, so be sure to stop by the blog to watch the trip live), but here's the big news:
The Lake Shore is running with a single Diner/Lounge, no full diner, and three almost sold-out sleepers. The crew reports that this is their second trip in a row with the Diner/Lounge consist and have received no word as to whether the full Diner is coming back. I'll be soliciting comments from Amtrak and NARP tomorrow for Rafi on the Rails, but figured folks here would want the news first.

Stand by for more.

-Rafi
My understanding is that they are running a separate lounge (Horizen) along with the new Diner/Lounge. Is this so or are they just running the one car to handle all food services on the train?
They were doing that, but according to this latest report from Rafi, they have eliminated the dining car and are only running one car, the new Diner-Lite car.

I'll let everyone know in about two weeks, if someone else doesn't beat me too it.
 
I may have to eat my words. I'll be posting a full explanation/description/pictorial on Rafi on the Rails tomorrow (I'm on the round-the-country trip as I write this, so be sure to stop by the blog to watch the trip live), but here's the big news:
The Lake Shore is running with a single Diner/Lounge, no full diner, and three almost sold-out sleepers. The crew reports that this is their second trip in a row with the Diner/Lounge consist and have received no word as to whether the full Diner is coming back. I'll be soliciting comments from Amtrak and NARP tomorrow for Rafi on the Rails, but figured folks here would want the news first.

Stand by for more.

-Rafi
My understanding is that they are running a separate lounge (Horizen) along with the new Diner/Lounge. Is this so or are they just running the one car to handle all food services on the train?
They were doing that, but according to this latest report from Rafi, they have eliminated the dining car and are only running one car, the new Diner-Lite car.

I'll let everyone know in about two weeks, if someone else doesn't beat me too it.
Just to clarify, because I've been a bit spotty on here since I've been on the big train trip (we just left Sacramento):

They're running the LSL with a Diner/Lounge and a heritage Dinette (at least that was what was on my train). So we've gone from a full diner and a separate lounge to a Diner/Lounge with a Dinette to handle food. My experience was a big disappointment, to say the least. Full report with photos is on RafiontheRails.com.

-Rafi
 
They're running the LSL with a Diner/Lounge and a heritage Dinette (at least that was what was on my train). So we've gone from a full diner and a separate lounge to a Diner/Lounge with a Dinette to handle food. My experience was a big disappointment, to say the least. Full report with photos is on RafiontheRails.com.
-Rafi
What's a heritage dinette? There is no such animal in the fleet to my knowledge.

Do you mean an Amfleet dinette?
 
I may have to eat my words. I'll be posting a full explanation/description/pictorial on Rafi on the Rails tomorrow (I'm on the round-the-country trip as I write this, so be sure to stop by the blog to watch the trip live), but here's the big news:
The Lake Shore is running with a single Diner/Lounge, no full diner, and three almost sold-out sleepers. The crew reports that this is their second trip in a row with the Diner/Lounge consist and have received no word as to whether the full Diner is coming back. I'll be soliciting comments from Amtrak and NARP tomorrow for Rafi on the Rails, but figured folks here would want the news first.

Stand by for more.

-Rafi
I returned last night from my two-week Amtrak travels, by way of the Cardinal. We had Diner/Lounge 28004, and the server and food preparer was Joannie (and she was fabulous).

I ate dinner, breakfast, lunch, and dinner there, and I'm very pleased to report that I enjoyed everything I ordered. The food was IMO every bit as good as full Heritage or Superliner SDS dining car fare. For the record, I had the mozzarella sticks, salmon entree, scrambled eggs & hash browns, Gardenburger, ravioli entree, and vanilla & chocolate ice creams, as well as two "split" ($5) mini-bottles of wine. I actually liked the menu a lot more than the SDS menu. Two fewer dinner entrees, but what they had was excellent; the appetizers are a nice addition which I and my dining companions enjoyed (the spring rolls were popular); the scrambled eggs breakfast was a great addition; the ice cream is fantastic; the small wine bottles are much-needed; and the prices are generally $2-$4 cheaper than equivalent fare in a full dining car. The "big" food difference is that you don't get a salad and roll with dinner entrees. I didn't miss that.

The problem--the very big problem--is that 28004 had potential seating for 20 (three full two-bench tables on one side of the car; one full two-bench table, one one-bench "handicapped accessible" table, and one single-bench table on the other side) plus the potential space for one or two handicapped patrons. In practice, it had seating for only 14. One full two-bench table (the one nearest the steam table) was completely filled with crew administration paperwork and unavailable for seating; and the half-table (across from the administrative table) was completely filled with linens and table settings and likewise unavailable. The handicapped area was pretty cluttered with more supply boxes, such that you couldn't actually fit a wheelchair in there, not that this was necessary to try on our train.

The Cardinal only had one sleeper plus two coaches (I think; maybe three, but I was in the rearmost and didn't walk forward through the train nor see the front half at CHI or PHL), not counting the two Hoosier coaches we left in Indianapolis after the first dinner. Seating was in high-demand, and while I think everyone was eventually squeezed in for each meal, it was a logistical nightmare with lots of passengers waiting in the cafe section to be called and in some instances waiting for over an hour. There was not a reservation system after the first dinner, and for that reservations were only offered to sleeper passengers. The dining-option was never officially announced to coach, and I and one other coach passenger only knew about it for the first dinner because we were savvy riders who knew the car would be in the Cardinal's consist and were eager to try it. Others later discovered it, but for all four meals, I saw probably a total of six different coach passengers eat there.

With three sleepers on the LSL, this will be an unmitigated disaster.

I talked to Joannie about the car (she was very impressed I took such an interest in Amtrak dining service and moreover that I was actively encouraging my fellow diners to offer feedback to Amtrak :) ), and she said 28004 has been in this configuration for about six months, during which it has run mostly on the Cardinal but a few times on the LSL. She told me the LSL was slated to permanently lose its dining car for a diner/lounge, and that she thought more trains with full dining cars would go the same way in the near future as more cars get turned into diner/lounges--she was quite certain that Amtrak's eventual goal was to substantially reduce dining cars, not just to upgrade cafe cars.

Unless they increase capacity substantially, by for instance retrofitting dining car kitchens to offer only the new menus and run them in conjunction with diner/lounges on routes like the LSL (which is a possible interpretation of her comments, though not necessarily the intuitive interpretation), things will go very, very wrong.

Perhaps they'll eventually run full diner-lite (dinette? what would they call them) Amfleet ex-cafes, serving the dining fare with linens on both halves, and also a full cafe car (ye olde cafe car), on trains like the LSL which formerly featured a full dining car and a cafe car? That would solve the capacity problem, and they could do it with one service crew member in the cafe and two in the diner-lite (one serving each half), which still amounts to a crew-cost savings of, what, four people over a dining car plus cafe?
 
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