Trump and Amtrak/Budget cutting funding

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None of this implies that we should accept that there will be cuts definitely this time. That is a defeatist attitude which will get us nowhere.
But at the same time, you have to face facts that there is a real possibility that it could happen. As Ryan pointed out, things are different than 1981 and last November, people didn't think Donald Trump would get elected but now he is sitting in the White House. Democrats thought 2016 was hunky dory for them like 2008 and 2012 and they paid a heavy price. I'm not being a defeatist, just a realist. What I've learned in 2016 is that what worked before over and over again will have no guarantees it will work going forward and to the accept the fact that the worst could happen.
 
I still believe that the most likely outcome is finding at or near current levels. The loss of some or all LDs has become more likely, but I still doubt it will happen. This budget proposal at least provides corridor funding, while some in the past did not. In my opinion, the worst thing about this budget proposal is that it shows that Trump will most likely not back up his campaign promise of improving passenger rail infrastructure and that Amtrak funding levels will not increase. I did not support Trump in the election, but I was at least hopeful that he would support passenger rail more than a normal Republican president.
 
None of this implies that we should accept that there will be cuts definitely this time. That is a defeatist attitude which will get us nowhere.
But at the same time, you have to face facts that there is a real possibility that it could happen. As Ryan pointed out, things are different than 1981 and last November, people didn't think Donald Trump would get elected but now he is sitting in the White House. Democrats thought 2016 was hunky dory for them like 2008 and 2012 and they paid a heavy price. I'm not being a defeatist, just a realist. What I've learned in 2016 is that what worked before over and over again will have no guarantees it will work going forward and to the accept the fact that the worst could happen.
Well yes. What that means is that one can't sit on their hands an assume that all will work out as it has in the past. It should be all hands on deck to demand of our representatives that they not go along with these cuts.
 
Amtrak includes other revenue along with ticket revenue to reach the 94% coverage of operating costs in FY16, according to the 11/17/16 press release. Increasing ticket sales alone by 6% won't be enough.
 
The worst thing about this budget proposal is that it shows that Trump will most likely not back up his campaign promise of improving passenger rail infrastructure and that Amtrak funding levels will not increase.
Do you have a date or location or quote of Trump promising to improve our national passenger rail system or to increase Amtrak funding levels? I heard him talk about privatizing the NEC and admiring high speed rail in other countries but that's about it. When people on the forum started claiming he would support and improve Amtrak I never understood where they were getting that from. To this day I've never seen a quote or video or even a description of time when Trump actually said any of that.
 
The worst thing about this budget proposal is that it shows that Trump will most likely not back up his campaign promise of improving passenger rail infrastructure and that Amtrak funding levels will not increase.
Do you have a date or location or quote of Trump promising to improve our national passenger rail system or to increase Amtrak funding levels? I heard him talk about privatizing the NEC and admiring high speed rail in other countries but that's about it. When people on the forum started claiming he would support and improve Amtrak I never understood where they were getting that from. To this day I've never seen a quote or video or even a description of time when Trump actually said any of that.
No, he never directly said that he would support Amtrak. He simply said that he wanted high speed trains and mentioned rail infrastructure multiple times, including his inauguration. I thought there may be a good chance of building high speed rail separately from Amtrak, just like California High Speed Rail. If he wanted to replace Amtrak with a new government funded corporation that ran high speed trains to the places Amtrak currently serves, I would have been very happy with that. I preferred politicians who voiced their support for Amtrak, but thought he would be better than many Republicans who don't support any Amtrak funding. Also, when did he say he wanted to privatize the NEC?
 
No, he never directly said that he would support Amtrak. He simply said that he wanted high speed trains and mentioned rail infrastructure multiple times, including his inauguration.
So far as I can tell, a single publicly funded privately operated high speed link from downtown to an airport would more than meet every single promise Trump ever made about passenger rail.

I thought there may be a good chance of building high speed rail separately from Amtrak, just like California High Speed Rail.
The only thing the Trump administration has done with CA's HSR is to further stall and delay it. This was done at the request of the staunchly anti-rail wing of the GOP that represents rich and rural folks in CA. With a few more attacks they might be able to stall it long enough to simply run out of money and momentum.

When did he say he wanted to privatize the NEC?
I couldn't find it quickly but privatizing Amtrak and scuttling CA's HSR plan have been on the GOP's roadmap for years. Trump is already on the record for wanting to privatize the FAA and several other quasi-governmental businesses so it fits right in with the current initiatives. In the grand scheme of things it's not that dissimilar to what Russia has repeatedly experienced. Public agencies and infrastructure are dismantled and divided up so they can be handed out as rewards to friends and associates. Mostly in the form of businesses that are privatized for pennies on the dollar.
 
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No, he never directly said that he would support Amtrak. He simply said that he wanted high speed trains and mentioned rail infrastructure multiple times, including his inauguration.
So far as I can tell, a single publicly funded privately operated high speed link from downtown to an airport would more than meet every single promise Trump ever made about passenger rail.

I thought there may be a good chance of building high speed rail separately from Amtrak, just like California High Speed Rail.
The only thing the Trump administration has done with CA's HSR is to further stall and delay it. This was done at the request of the staunchly anti-rail wing of the GOP that represents rich and rural folks in CA. With a few more attacks they might be able to stall it long enough to simply run out of money and momentum.

When did he say he wanted to privatize the NEC?
I couldn't find it quickly but privatizing Amtrak and scuttling CA's HSR plan have been on the GOP's roadmap for years. Trump is already on the record for wanting to privatize the FAA and several other quasi-governmental businesses so it fits right in with the current initiatives. In the grand scheme of things it's not that dissimilar to what Russia has repeatedly experienced. Public agencies and infrastructure are dismantled and divided up so they can be handed out as rewards to friends and associates. Mostly in the form of businesses that are privatized for pennies on the dollar.
Yeah, I guess one line could theoretically fulfill every promise he has made about passenger rail. However, his mocking of the US railroad system when compared to China hinted that he would be supportive of larger intercity projects, including Amtrak. While his proposed budget may not prove his campaign statements as lies, at the very least it makes them misleading. As to the California High Speed Rail, I fully agree that he will now attempt to stop it rather than support it. His budget makes it clear that he has no interest in supporting passenger rail; I was simply stating that it is disappointing considering that his earlier statements on the matter appeared at least somewhat supportive.

As to the NEC privatization, I know that Republicans are generally supportive of the concept but I have never heard Trump comment on the subject. As explained in the previous paragraph, his earlier speeches gave some hope that he may stray from typical Republican ideologies. I didn't know about the FAA privatization, but that along with the Trump administration's now expressed views on Amtrak funding certainly hint that NEC privatization could be attempted in the future.
 
Improving rail infrastructure does not necessarily mean it includes infrastructure for passenger rail either.
Yes, but his comments about the American rail system being weak when compared to China certainly hinted that he was referring to passenger rail. The American freight railroad system is one of the largest in the world and serves most of the country very well. Many countries frequently cited as having excellent rail systems have less advanced freight railroads than the US. Honestly, at this point I believe his comments about rail were just lies to get elected. I doubt he will prove to be an advocate of rail transportation, whether it be for freight or passengers.
 
The worst thing about this budget proposal is that it shows that Trump will most likely not back up his campaign promise of improving passenger rail infrastructure and that Amtrak funding levels will not increase.
Do you have a date or location or quote of Trump promising to improve our national passenger rail system or to increase Amtrak funding levels? I heard him talk about privatizing the NEC and admiring high speed rail in other countries but that's about it. When people on the forum started claiming he would support and improve Amtrak I never understood where they were getting that from. To this day I've never seen a quote or video or even a description of time when Trump actually said any of that.
The only way I see Donald Trump supporting Passenger rail, is for him to get Congress to authorize new exclusive LD Passenger rail routes that have Trump Hotels near all of the new stations...

Now I know that's a real pipe dream...but hey, The Donald dreams Big..
 
Improving rail infrastructure does not necessarily mean it includes infrastructure for passenger rail either.
Yes, but his comments about the American rail system being weak when compared to China certainly hinted that he was referring to passenger rail. The American freight railroad system is one of the largest in the world and serves most of the country very well. Many countries frequently cited as having excellent rail systems have less advanced freight railroads than the US. Honestly, at this point I believe his comments about rail were just lies to get elected. I doubt he will prove to be an advocate of rail transportation, whether it be for freight or passengers.
Agreed. He said all sorts of things during his campaign. One stray statement from him is not indicative of any policy intentions at all IMHO.
 
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I am no accountant but please explain the math to me. If Amtrak is able to cover 94% of its expenses that means they are 4% short. Ticket sales are the main source of revenue so if you increase that revenue by 4% it would seem that Amtrak would be operating at or near the break even point. There might be other small revenue sources that factor in but they would probably be insignificant.
Basically it's the difference between "net" and "gross", so that the question becomes "By how much do I have to increase my gross to result in a 6% increase in my net?" This is an eternal question in business and many businesses who attempt to increase their net by adjusting their gross often fail a few times over before actually getting the increase in the net. To extrapolate that to Amtrak, it's not as simple as just raising ticket prices---by any amount.
 
I doubt he will prove to be an advocate of rail transportation, whether it be for freight or passengers.
He'll be an advocate for the freight part of it, once he figures out how things get from Point A to Point B. The problem I have with elected officials (and the wonks that write things like budgets) who've spent most of their time in large urban areas is that they have no clue how goods get on shelves or products get to or from factories. In North America, that happens via truck, train, or plane. And since coal, broccoli, and cans of soup aren't going to fly to their final destinations that means it mostly goes on highways and railways. One huge derailment (or several smaller ones) due to degrading track and another bridge collapse like the I-35W Mississippi River one and all the penny-pinching as it relates to that part of transportation will go out the window fast. Whether or how it will benefit Amtrak is an another question.
 
If Trump wants to cut the long-distance trains, how much do you want to bet that Amtrak CEO Wick Moorman is going to say no?
 
Yeah, I guess one line could theoretically fulfill every promise he has made about passenger rail. However, his mocking of the US railroad system when compared to China hinted that he would be supportive of larger intercity projects, including Amtrak. While his proposed budget may not prove his campaign statements as lies, at the very least it makes them misleading.
Given that you can't even believe something he comes out and bald-faced tells or SCREAMS at you (Believe me!), I find it amusing that people are still trying to put stock in something he "hints" at, or reads his tea leaves.

As for his campaign statements being lies... color me surprised... :huh:
 
If Trump wants to cut the long-distance trains, how much do you want to bet that Amtrak CEO Wick Moorman is going to say no?
Wouldn't that be a bit like you or I standing at the top of a waterfall, and saying to the water "No, you can't go over the edge".
 
According to the Amtrak FY 2016 Factsheet, LD passengers make up 15% of total ridership. NEC and State-Supported Services make up the other 85%. LD does make up 22% of total ticket revenue.

From the Republican budget standpoint, they're focusing on the remaining 85% of the business after LD is cut. Which makes sense from their perspective, as those lines are more efficient at carrying passengers.

To attack the LD cuts, you need to explain how this will damage the remaining business if the nationwide network is ended. If anyone has good data on cross traffic between LD and the NEC/State-Supported Services, here is a good chance to use it. It has been awhile since the air traffic was shutdown after 9/11, but that's another argument for leaving an LD network.

Try to think like an opponent of LD rail, however hard that may be, and you'll be more effective at countering their arguments.
 
Try to think like an opponent of LD rail, however hard that may be, and you'll be more effective at countering their arguments.
I remember feeling the same way. Then I saw actual footage of anti-rail protests across the country and they were filled with signs and people saying things like "YOUR CHOO-CHOO TRAIN IS DUMB!" and "TRAINS ARE FOR TOYS!" and realized that logic and reason had never entered into the anti-train thought process. So far as I can tell the current anti-rail movement was founded on little more than a emotional overreaction to hearing that the previous president supported passenger rail enough to increase funding for it.
 
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Here is an interesting story about the proposed budget and the potential demise of the LD network, and how it would effect Ohio.

IF, and again I say IF all LD trains were to be cut, Ohio would loose all of it's Amtrak service.

Given that the states near Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, etc. all pay for various regional Amtrak routes, what on the

green earth is wrong with a populas state like Ohio in not fuding some regional service.

I know there have been all sorts of proposals for intra-city service in Ohio, but they are not doing anything right now.

It is often noted how some Ohio cities host their trains during nocturnal hours, no great shock given these are all LD trains

focused on their end points.

If anything this budget proposal should spark some much needed discussion in states like Ohio.

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2017/03/19/Trump-budget-would-halt-Amtrak-service-in-Ohio.html

Ken
 
If Trump wants to cut the long-distance trains, how much do you want to bet that Amtrak CEO Wick Moorman is going to say no?
If Congress does not give Wick the money to run them then Wick will not have a choice to say "No". He works within the financial constraints set by Congress. Let us not launch ourselves off into fantasy la-la land.

IF, and again I say IF all LD trains were to be cut, Ohio would loose all of it's Amtrak service.

Given that the states near Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, etc. all pay for various regional Amtrak routes,
If you include Commuter routes then the only neighboring state of Ohio that does not fund at least to some extent any passenger train service apparently is Kentucky. Even West Virginia has agreements with MARC and targeted capital funding to run its train to Martinsburg. Pennsylvania of course funds all sorts of train service including Amtrak Keystone and Pennsylvanian. And you have already mentioned Michigan, Indiana and Illinois.
 
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Trump fascinates me, as I said before. He manages to convince all of his supporters that he is going to do exactly what he wants. He also seems to manage to convince people who would accept the public label of a "Trump Detractor" that he is going to do exactly, precisely, and completely everything they DON'T want. Despite the fact that I have seen time and time again that in many cases both of those categories often want exactly the same thing. That is, Supporter says "Trump is going to support X extensively!" and detractor says "Trump is planning to completely eliminate X." Obviously at least one of these has to be untrue. Or ones idea of support is another's idea of destruction (also possible). Or both, or neither. Actually, from what I can discern, all of these are true, across almost all of these issues, to some extent or another. The only thing that is certain in every case is that the supporter supports, and the detractor detracts, often with neither having any concrete knowledge of any of the issues involved, or what Trump's position might be (if, in fact, he has one!).

Furthermore, people don't seem to understand how much power the president has. (and with that statement, I am talking about the president as a concept, not any specific example of one.) The answer is their level of power is highly variable. With strong support from the majority party, strong support from the courts, and a solid amount of support from the general population, the President can be very powerful. With no support from the majority party, or limited support from them, limited support from the courts, and hard to determine support from the general population, or active lack of support (Think Bush Jr. in his last year in office, for example.) the president's power can be nearly nonexistent. Where in that graph Trump resides is hard to determine, and is based on who you listen to- from what I can tell, all of them (irrespective of support) are either spinning like George Washington in his grave (whether he would support Trump or not, he'd hate how divided we are as a nation), or outright lying. However, supporters tend to think he his highly regarded, and detractors are convinced everyone hates him.

Speaking for myself, I'm not sure what to think of him personally, but I dislike the state his election has put the nation, and more importantly my family dinner table. Why? Because he is the only bloody thing I ever hear about. What he has done, will do, might do, could do, can't do, should do, shouldn't do. Also what he obviously thinks or doesn't think, which irritates the hell out of me (The whole point of this rant is that he does an excellent job, particularly, of hiding what he is thinking and what his intentions are!). I'm tired of it, because its just a lot of ranting or raving noise with nothing accomplished. Every headline is "HERE IS WHAT TRUMP MIGHT DO!" Let me add one: Trump might dress up a baseball bat in a Sombrero and a Tutu, and then re-enact the boat scene from Phantom Of The Opera, in his underwear. CHRISTINE!! I mean, its extremely improbable, but he might. Garsh, Mickey! (impart Goofy accent, just so you know this is a joke, also I'm making fun of news agencies excessive use of nullifying words in headlines, not suggesting Trump is particularly prone to acting like Jim Carey).

I'm not criticizing Trump here. The fact of the matter is, the goodness or badness of what he wants to do depends mightily on who you are, where you stand in life, where you come from, and the way movements in the economy effect you personally. So whether he is good or bad depends on his effectiveness, and he is definitely being ideologically blocked by his detractors. Which is the same basic position Obama was in around this time, if you happen to recall, albeit with slightly less blather. (very slightly)

However, I suggest all of those who want support or detract, evaluate what he is doing. For example, the budget proposed absolutely is set up such that if it particularly goes into effect, Amtrak's long distance network will be de-funded. That's a fact. Whether this is his intention or not, whether this is meant to be a baseline for negotiation, and whether you like or dislike the idea proposed, those are all opinions. And all of your opinions are open to yourself.

But I suggest the lot of you dig out all the indisputable facts you can find (not easy, I know, in this world of blather bombardment), including exactly what the programs he is funding or defunding ACTUALLY DO, rather than their naming scheme, and then decide whether or not you like it. Just as an example: The EPA, or Environmental Protection Agency, has parts that do stuff for protecting the environment (I've seen bits and bobs that do directly) however, I think the part I have had the most dealing with should be broken off into something called the BSA- BANANA Support Agency. Because the main function of that part of the agency seems to be providing a springboard anti-build for NIMBYs and BANANAs to object to things over.

Oh, also stop assuming anything makes sense. That's not a Trump thing, though. My enlightenment in the world came from the following understanding: Rarely does anything make sense, never blame malice for what can adequately be explained by stupidity, unless the stupidity has the precision of a Swiss watch, in which case it is definitely malice.
 
If Trump wants to cut the long-distance trains, how much do you want to bet that Amtrak CEO Wick Moorman is going to say no?
If Congress does not give Wick the money to run them then Wick will not have a choice to say "No". He works within the financial constraints set by Congress. Let us not launch ourselves off into fantasy la-la land.
IF, and again I say IF all LD trains were to be cut, Ohio would loose all of it's Amtrak service.

Given that the states near Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, etc. all pay for various regional Amtrak routes,
If you include Commuter routes then the only neighboring state of Ohio that does not fund at least to some extent any passenger train service apparently is Kentucky. Even West Virginia has agreements with MARC and targeted capital funding to run its train to Martinsburg. Pennsylvania of course funds all sorts of train service including Amtrak Keystone and Pennsylvanian. And you have already mentioned Michigan, Indiana and Illinois.
If you were to include any rail transportation, even Ohio does have non-Amtrak passenger trains. Cleveland has two light rail lines and a rapid transit line; Cincinnati has a streetcar. While I do not know for sure, I would assume the state contributes some money to these systems, especially the one in Cleveland. This is not to say they would fund Amtrak, especially with the current government. It is very unfortunate that a populated northern state has such little passenger rail infrastructure, but the government more closely resembles a deep southern state such as Georgia than an industrialized northern state.
 
I was not including non-main line passenger service (subways and LRT) on purpose, since that is an entirely different can of worms dealing with a different bureaucracy. but yes, what you say is true.

Maybe a previously industrialized state that has lost most of its industry at the core looks more like a southern state.I am not sure if that or its reverse actually works. But just a thought to consider.
 
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